Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

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CaveatLector
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby CaveatLector » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:54 am

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CaveatLector
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby CaveatLector » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:57 am

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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby CaveatLector » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:04 am

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kwais
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby kwais » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:21 am

hirschas wrote:
reepS wrote:I've been lurking this thread from the start, and the visualization I get of OP from the start is a little kid who is obsessed with star trek/Spock/Vulcan logic and tries to argue everything accordingly. Or a 16 year old drama/emo/goth kid who just read the communist manifesto.


Also my favorite recent OP comment is how he is philosophically against force. That's amazing. Isn't one of the basic foundations of law to force people to not use violence to resolve disputes? Like you sue someone instead of killing them? Or forcing someone to pay a fine?

Anyways carry on OP, goooo LLB! Screw the system! Down with JD's! Fight the white man whose keeping us down!


"I've been lurking this thread from the start, and the visualization I get of OP from the start is a little kid who is obsessed with star trek/Spock/Vulcan logic and tries to argue everything accordingly. Or a 16 year old drama/emo/goth kid who just read the communist manifesto. "

Man, this is like some pretty angry and emotional shit to say to someone you don't even know. Are you ok? Seriously, this is a discussion group, where people, you know, discuss things. If the stuff written here really gets you that riled up, maybe you should just not read it. If it is an issue that goes deeper than that, maybe you should seek professional help. I know some good therapists in the area, you want a recommendation??


Damn! You got'm good with that whole therapist thing.

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piccolittle
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby piccolittle » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:40 am

hirschas wrote:
What do you mean? In which state can one become a qualified lawyer with only a foreign LLB? I saw your post before, I know the job market is crap, somehow this thread just kept on going.


New York. Depends which school you received your LLB from.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby Blessedassurance » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:03 am

hirschas wrote: The additional time, training and commitment that goes into a JD is fixed into the costs that all legal professionals, from lawyers to professors, charge, and those costs are passed onto consumers, from clients to law school students.


No, those things affect price to the extent that they affect supply and demand. In simple terms, it's all demand and supply. There are many jobs which require ample training, costs etc that don't pay anything. Doctors do not get paid because they spend a lot of time and costs to become doctors. They are paid what they are paid due to the fact that the aforementioned externalities, coupled with the activities of the AMA limit supply and creates shortage of supply relative to demand. On the demand side, consumers are willing to pay the going rate for the services Doctors provide (see:elasticity of demand relative to healthcare etc). It is difficult to elaborately explain this in Economic terms on here. There are books that do that.

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NYC Law
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:17 am

hirschas wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
hirschas wrote:I don't know where people get these notions that all schools but the T14 should be demolished. If that happened, where would all your small-town divorce, probate, estate, small business, non white-collar crime lawyers come from? BigLaw works with Big Business, but your family is not big business, your local mom and pop store is not big business, so who is supposed to serve this large large part of our society and economy when all the T14 grads are off on Wall Street? We need the TTT and TTTT schools because we need small-town lawyers


Most people don't advocate an abolition of all but the T14. 200 is however, a bit much. Especially considering the demand for lawyers. The small town angle has been covered. An Emory professor advised students to move to Nebraska during a commencement speech.


Look at some small town law firm sites, I mean 3-5 partners and 2-3 associates, and not boutiques that are experts in complex commercial litigation, think more probate and DUIs. See if you can find anyone from top 20 schools. Slim chances. Where do they come from? The podunk schools you never heard of. And I'd bet they get common people out of crappy situations everyday.


Who ever even said all but the T14 should be demolished? Stop straw manning. Regional lawyers come from appropriate regional schools, ie public schools. CA + FL have 32 law schools (ABA Accredited). Do we really need 32 law schools to train the amount of 'probate and DUI' lawyers CA and FL need?

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bport hopeful
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby bport hopeful » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:22 am

WSJ_Law wrote:
bport hopeful wrote: How often did you drink?


How often did you think? Grow up.

I dont understand this comment at all?

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby FeelTheHeat » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:41 am

hirschas wrote:If it is an issue that goes deeper than that, maybe you should seek professional help. I know some good therapists in the area, you want a recommendation??


I imagine you are an absolute hit at parties.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:52 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
hirschas wrote:If it is an issue that goes deeper than that, maybe you should seek professional help. I know some good therapists in the area, you want a recommendation??


I imagine you are an absolute hit at parties.

SHE DIDN'T HOOK UP WITH ME, WE MUST REFORM THE SYSTEM TO ALLOW UGLY GUYS TO GET PUSSY EASIER

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby FeelTheHeat » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:53 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:
hirschas wrote:If it is an issue that goes deeper than that, maybe you should seek professional help. I know some good therapists in the area, you want a recommendation??


I imagine you are an absolute hit at parties.

SHE DIDN'T HOOK UP WITH ME, WE MUST REFORM THE SYSTEM TO ALLOW UGLY GUYS TO GET PUSSY EASIER


LEGALIZE RAPE

areyouinsane
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby areyouinsane » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:54 am

Who ever even said all but the T14 should be demolished? Stop straw manning. Regional lawyers come from appropriate regional schools, ie public schools. CA + FL have 32 law schools (ABA Accredited). Do we really need 32 law schools to train the amount of 'probate and DUI' lawyers CA and FL need?



We don't need ANY law schools to train DWI lawyers or probate lawyers or personal injury lawyers. All of these practice areas could be easily learned via the apprenticeship route. This is the licensing model for plumbers, electricians and other licensed trades, and should be for law as well. In fact, this is how they are learned right now, as law school teaches one absolutely nothing that prepares one for actual practice.

I'm saying that states should have viable, attainable alternate routes to licensure other than the ABA law school model. As most of you have not yet been to law school (much less worked as attorneys), you don't yet understand how utterly worthless and devoid of worthwhile content an ABA lawschool "education" is, esp. as applied to 99% of small town shitlawyers. Everything these folks need to know could be leanred via apprenticeship/self study.

Keep the Top 14 around to feed the "biglaw" firms, and let everyone else learn via apprenticeship. That was the system in place prior to WWII, and it produced some damn fine lawyers. The ABA lawschool cartel is designed only to extract student loan money at grossly inflated rates, and provide high-paid, do-nothing jobs to scores of lazy Biglaw washouts with little-to-no real world experience and no teaching ability whatsoever.

And any comparison of law to medicine is, at this point, absurd. The MCAT determines if one goes to medical school, the LSAT merely determines where one goes to law school. In terms of prestige medicine has lapped law and left it in the dust. Do you see all sorts of "med school" scamblogs with ranting unemployed MD's? Do you see ads on craigslist for entry-level licensed MD's paying $12 an hour? Or ads for ambulance drivers or paramedics which state "No licensed physicians need apply"? Of course not. The AMA do a superb job of keeping supply low, and an aging population keeps demand sky-high.

The ABA could have kept the prestige and pay of lawyers as high as it was 40 years ago by simply raising bar exam standards and keeping the # of law schools low by having very tough accredation standards. Instead they chose to open the floodgates and accredit anyone who opens a lawschool in the spare bay of his garage, while also making the bar exam so easy that it no longer serves as any sort of barrier to entry whatsoever.

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NYC Law
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:01 am

areyouinsane wrote:
Who ever even said all but the T14 should be demolished? Stop straw manning. Regional lawyers come from appropriate regional schools, ie public schools. CA + FL have 32 law schools (ABA Accredited). Do we really need 32 law schools to train the amount of 'probate and DUI' lawyers CA and FL need?



We don't need ANY law schools to train DWI lawyers or probate lawyers or personal injury lawyers. All of these practice areas could be easily learned via the apprenticeship route. This is the licensing model for plumbers, electricians and other licensed trades, and should be for law as well. In fact, this is how they are learned right now, as law school teaches one absolutely nothing that prepares one for actual practice.

I'm saying that states should have viable, attainable alternate routes to licensure other than the ABA law school model. As most of you have not yet been to law school (much less worked as attorneys), you don't yet understand how utterly worthless and devoid of worthwhile content an ABA lawschool "education" is, esp. as applied to 99% of small town shitlawyers. Everything these folks need to know could be leanred via apprenticeship/self study.

Keep the Top 14 around to feed the "biglaw" firms, and let everyone else learn via apprenticeship. That was the system in place prior to WWII, and it produced some damn fine lawyers. The ABA lawschool cartel is designed only to extract student loan money at grossly inflated rates, and provide high-paid, do-nothing jobs to scores of lazy Biglaw washouts with little-to-no real world experience and no teaching ability whatsoever.

And any comparison of law to medicine is, at this point, absurd. The MCAT determines if one goes to medical school, the LSAT merely determines where one goes to law school. In terms of prestige medicine has lapped law and left it in the dust. Do you see all sorts of "med school" scamblogs with ranting unemployed MD's? Do you see ads on craigslist for entry-level licensed MD's paying $12 an hour? Or ads for ambulance drivers or paramedics which state "No licensed physicians need apply"? Of course not. The AMA do a superb job of keeping supply low, and an aging population keeps demand sky-high.

The ABA could have kept the prestige and pay of lawyers as high as it was 40 years ago by simply raising bar exam standards and keeping the # of law schools low by having very tough accredation standards. Instead they chose to open the floodgates and accredit anyone who opens a lawschool in the spare bay of his garage, while also making the bar exam so easy that it no longer serves as any sort of barrier to entry whatsoever.


Oh, you were the one saying to demolish all but the T14. And what you propose is actually reasonable and I think that's a decent idea, but will it ever happen? fuck no.

The lawyer's ego would never allow the status quo to change and remove barriers to becoming a lawyer, thus making it perceived as any less elite of an industry.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:10 am

hirschas wrote:I don't know where people get these notions that all schools but the T14 should be demolished.

It's basically what you're calling for. If everything shifts to LLB-granting institutions except for the high-end work that goes to the few currently at the top each year, then folks will get LLBs from undergrad institutions, and many current law schools (which are graduate programs) will have to close.

There's only a market for 200 graduate law programs because of the current reliance on JDs. You succeed in eliminating that requirement and the current programs will start dying off. Many will be replaced by LLB programs, which would presumably face the universal tuition limits seen at many colleges and universities. That would reduce prices, which is what you want, but also cause the dismantling of most JD programs, since the high profitability that drives their existence would be devastated.

Maybe some programs would be folded into the newly-created "college of law" at their university, but they really wouldn't be getting sustainable JD enrollment anymore since folks could just get the LLB instead. The graduate program, the "law school" as the institution it is today, would die on most campuses.

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bport hopeful
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby bport hopeful » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:25 am

This thread has turned into a TL;DR fest, though I did read vanwinkle's post.

I enjoy people on the interwebz suggesting psychiatrict help. Makes me lolz at them.

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kwais
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby kwais » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:29 am

This thread reminds me of the end of the 3rd Lord of the Rings. Is it over? Nope, another 20 minutes. Over? Nope, another 20 minutes.

CaveatLector
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby CaveatLector » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:36 am

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CaveatLector
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby CaveatLector » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:47 am

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NYC Law
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:50 am

hirschas wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
hirschas wrote:I don't know where people get these notions that all schools but the T14 should be demolished.

It's basically what you're calling for. If everything shifts to LLB-granting institutions except for the high-end work that goes to the few currently at the top each year, then folks will get LLBs from undergrad institutions, and many current law schools (which are graduate programs) will have to close.

There's only a market for 200 graduate law programs because of the current reliance on JDs. You succeed in eliminating that requirement and the current programs will start dying off. Many will be replaced by LLB programs, which would presumably face the universal tuition limits seen at many colleges and universities. That would reduce prices, which is what you want, but also cause the dismantling of most JD programs, since the high profitability that drives their existence would be devastated.

Maybe some programs would be folded into the newly-created "college of law" at their university, but they really wouldn't be getting sustainable JD enrollment anymore since folks could just get the LLB instead. The graduate program, the "law school" as the institution it is today, would die on most campuses.


Yeah, pretty much right, and it all sounds good. I don't agree that the JD would die though. There will still be non-LLB UG grads who find they want to be lawyers after graduation, and the JD will provide them that option. I think it would actually be a decent size market. That is what they have in England - it is not called a JD, but it is a post-UG degree that lets one become a lawyer (one of the junior associates in our office followed this route, no he is a BigLaw associate). Another example, Hong Kong and Singapore, maybe Australia too, are beginning to offer JDs in addition to the LLB, which they probably wouldn't do if the relevant market did not exist. So, even in a post-LLB world, the JD could still survive.


No, there wouldn't be a need for a JD. Just a LLM and SJD.

areyouinsane
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby areyouinsane » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:55 am

Chicago has such a shortage of shitlawyers that attorney "jobs" there pay no salary or medical coverage:

--LinkRemoved--

athenian
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby athenian » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:56 am

While we're on the topic. Why do you need so much education to become a college professor?

4 years of undergrad + 2 years of Master's degree + thesis + 2 year's of PhD. + dissertation. That seems a little excessive.

I bet if you allowed people with just a Bachelor's to be college professors, a lot more students would choose that option, which would force universities to hire these graduates rather than a candidate that is going to demand a higher salary and benefits because they spent more money and mortgaged their future by pursuing 8 years of education when they could've done it in 4. Basic market rules would then dictate that the costs of faculty at universities would be lower, thereby leading to a lower cost for higher education in this country and saving us from the brink of national disaster.

[No snide remarks from haters, please]

CaveatLector
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby CaveatLector » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:57 am

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NYC Law
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:58 am

athenian wrote:While we're on the topic. Why do you need so much education to become a college professor?

4 years of undergrad + 2 years of Master's degree + thesis + 2 year's of PhD. + dissertation. That seems a little excessive.

I bet if you allowed people with just a Bachelor's to be college professors, a lot more students would choose that option, which would force universities to hire these graduates rather than a candidate that is going to demand a higher salary and benefits because they spent more money and mortgaged their future by pursuing 8 years of education when they could've done it in 4. Basic market rules would then dictate that the costs of faculty at universities would be lower, thereby leading to a lower cost for higher education in this country and saving us from the brink of national disaster.

[No snide remarks from haters, please]


lol at grad school costing money

CaveatLector
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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby CaveatLector » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:02 am

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Re: Become American Lawyer Without JD or LSAT!!!

Postby CaveatLector » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:03 am

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