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hirschas wrote:Well, I want to hear everyone's thoughts on American high school graduates leaving US shores to enroll in LLB programs at foreign universities (common or civil law jurisdictions) and then coming back to the US, doing an LLM (WITHOUT HAVING TO TAKING THE F%*CKING LSAT), taking the BAR, and becoming US lawyers, all within 5 sweet and time productive years. I want to hear your opinions and knowledge on the whole notion, from quality of education to job placement to American high school graduates having the huevos to go abroad to the technicalities of the process. I ask because (1) it is a topic worth discussion and (2) I want to be able to provide good advice to the younger generation. Maybe if we get enough aspiring US lawyers abandoning the JD, US universities will be forced to reintroduce the LLB and future lawyers can be saved three years of suffering, loans, the LSAT etc.

[Please, no childish name calling or slandering crap, just intelligent discussion for this thread]

I think that's an excessively large risk to take. As a practical financial matter, you can't take out federal loans to attend schools outside the US. Plus it's not like you can just waltz into any of the foreign law schools. Also, do you have any definitive info on which (if any) state bars admit foreign LLMs? Law school isn't like med school, with a system in place for foreign schools to take on American students who couldn't get into any US school and for foreign doctors to get easily licensed in their state.

Cool story bro.

You try it and let me know how it works.

Sounds like someone sucks at the LSAT.

Enjoy Vermont.

rinkrat19 wrote:Sounds like someone sucks at the LSAT.

This. There is no way the OP was written by someone who pwned the LSATs.

If you really want to try an obtuse and ridiculous idea to circumvent the fact you suck at the LSAT just go to CA, VT, VA, or WA and take the bar after studying under a judge/lawyer, skipping law school altogether. At least you'll save money.

kwais wrote:

rinkrat19 wrote:Sounds like someone sucks at the LSAT.

This. There is no way the OP was written by someone who pwned the LSATs.

Or by someone who is a native speaker of english.

schooner wrote:
I think that's an excessively large risk to take. As a practical financial matter, you can't take out federal loans to attend schools outside the US. Plus it's not like you can just waltz into any of the foreign law schools. Also, do you have any definitive info on which (if any) state bars admit foreign LLMs? Law school isn't like med school, with a system in place for foreign schools to take on American students who couldn't get into any US school and for foreign doctors to get easily licensed in their state.

You are correct on all but one point... you can take out federal loans to go outside of the US. All kinds of schools all over the world are recognized by the US Dept of Ed.

hirschas wrote:[Please, no childish name calling or slandering crap, just intelligent discussion for this thread]

lol

There are schools in the US that don't require LSAT - Mass School of Law for example. You don't have to take the LSAT or leave the country. And you can take out federal loans to attend.

firemed wrote:

schooner wrote:
I think that's an excessively large risk to take. As a practical financial matter, you can't take out federal loans to attend schools outside the US. Plus it's not like you can just waltz into any of the foreign law schools. Also, do you have any definitive info on which (if any) state bars admit foreign LLMs? Law school isn't like med school, with a system in place for foreign schools to take on American students who couldn't get into any US school and for foreign doctors to get easily licensed in their state.

You are correct on all but one point... you can take out federal loans to go outside of the US. All kinds of schools all over the world are recognized by the US Dept of Ed.

What do you know, you are right. I had always heard "school must be accredited in the U.S." for financial aid and only just checked.

By the way, what reputable schools of law in Singapore and England will accept American kids with only a high school diploma? I think that's the first real hurdle here, if you're going to seriously entertain his proposal.

schooner wrote:
What do you know, you are right. I had always heard "school must be accredited in the U.S." for financial aid and only just checked.

By the way, what reputable schools of law in Singapore and England will accept American kids with only a high school diploma? I think that's the first real hurdle here, if you're going to seriously entertain his proposal.

I just looked up a school that said you have to complete a couple APs to be eligible.

sarahlawg wrote:

schooner wrote:
What do you know, you are right. I had always heard "school must be accredited in the U.S." for financial aid and only just checked.

By the way, what reputable schools of law in Singapore and England will accept American kids with only a high school diploma? I think that's the first real hurdle here, if you're going to seriously entertain his proposal.

I just looked up a school that said you have to complete a couple APs to be eligible.

Me too: King's College in London. http://www.kcl.ac.uk/prospectus/undergr ... quirements

That seems pretty incredible, that you could get into a law school anywhere with just a few APs (and/or the SAT/ACT) under your belt. If anyone accomplishes (or has accomplished) what the OP proposes, I'd love to hear it!

It's actually 3 years. The LLB takes 3 and you don't need to do an LLM to take the NY Bar if you graduate from a few certain schools in the UK (plus maybe a few others, not sure).

That's not saying you'll actually get a job afterward (guess who knows all about that?).

U mad bro?

Hmm..i'm going to weight in with what i know.. I have a LL.B from a civil law jurisdiction and from what i've heard from people from my school (best law school here) who have done the LL.B+LL.M (top-20 schools) only about 5-10% land an associate job in the US (and mainly because they got help from somebody they knew or from the law firms they worked at before the LL.M --> this means all of them had legal work experience prior to the LL.M). Having that said, I know this may not work the same for U.S. natives but overall it does help for pinpointing that US law firms do not think highly of the LL.M when it comes to hiring. I mean, people are having a hard time landing a job even with a J.D., and with the surplus of graduating lawyers pretty much in every state, I just wouldn't take the chance of not landing my dream job.

In my very own case, i'm starting 1L this year. In this competitive market a LL.M is not enough anymore, not even in civil law jurisdictions.

mabad wrote:Hmm..i'm going to weight in with what i know.. I have a LL.B from a civil law jurisdiction and from what i've heard from people from my school (best law school here) who have done the LL.B+LL.M (top-20 schools) only about 5-10% land an associate job in the US (and mainly because they got help from somebody they knew or from the law firms they worked at before the LL.M --> this means all of them had legal work experience prior to the LL.M). Having that said, I know this may not work the same for U.S. natives but overall it does help for pinpointing that US law firms do not think highly of the LL.M when it comes to hiring. I mean, people are having a hard time landing a job even with a J.D., and with the surplus of graduating lawyers pretty much in every state, I just wouldn't take the chance of not landing my dream job.

In my very own case, i'm starting 1L this year. In this competitive market a LL.M is not enough anymore, not even in civil law jurisdictions.

Amen. I am an American with an LLB and nobody would give me the time of day until they heard about my acceptance to a JD program. A girl who graduated with me and who went on to get an LLM (also American and took the bar) is now working one non-legal job and a bunch of volunteer jobs (also non-law).

too long,

..

Also, people seem to be freaking out over Americans being able to get into "law school" without taking the LSAT. The LLB is a bachelor's degree, as in undergrad. In the English system, you choose a subject and take only that subject all three years (at most unis). It is basically just going to college and majoring in Law, which then leads you to the legal career track if you so choose.

The Training Contract/Pupillage system (the "apprenticeship" referenced in the OP) is different from ours in that you basically have to get a job before you can become a solicitor or barrister. Therefore, the UK has a glut of unemployed law grads, not unemployed lawyers. I think it's just different, and tbh I much prefer the structure they give you here in your job search. At my school in the UK, they pretty much left you alone and at the end of 3 years it was like "No job? Huh, that's so weird! Better luck next time!". Then again, you had just finished undergrad so it wasn't as though you had wasted lots of time for a degree you couldn't use; LLB graduates do a lot of different stuff.

I think it's a clever idea, but I don't know how employers respond to LLM's

though tbh, 3 years of law school + 4 years of UG is WAAAAY too much resources to be spent on attorneys. The law is not so complex that we need 7 years of higher education. We have people taking 5 years to get BA's in communications, I don't think OP's idea is ridiculous when you look at compared to that sort of thing.

... And I'm not even including the "gap year(s)" that people spin as relevant work experience

hirschas wrote:doing an LLM (WITHOUT HAVING TO TAKING THE F%*CKING LSAT)

lol.

rinkrat19 wrote:Sounds like someone sucks at the LSAT.