Law Schools Abroad

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FantasticMrFox
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Law Schools Abroad

Postby FantasticMrFox » Tue May 03, 2011 3:36 pm

So I'm currently attending UG in the United States (K-12 here too)
but I have always been internationally-oriented and satisfied those pangs of hunger through activities like Model UN, traveling, and learning multiple languages through school and supplementary courses.

But, as UG is zapping by, I've been thinking a lot on my future, particularly my occupation's location. I was wondering whether anyone here had particular thoughts on legal education in the UK?

They do not have separate professional schools so I will have to attend "UG" but it's only a matter of going to school one more year so I am not too worried (but my main worry is regretting)

How are job prospects, etc?

Thanks! Although I probably will end up staying here haha

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue May 03, 2011 3:46 pm

Most of us really only have knowledge about the Canadian law school system, in which case I would say go to Toronto. But if your looking to get into an international field, go for Yale, Harvard or Columbia. Sorry I can't be more helpful

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby FantasticMrFox » Tue May 03, 2011 3:49 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:Most of us really only have knowledge about the Canadian law school system, in which case I would say go to Toronto. But if your looking to get into an international field, go for Yale, Harvard or Columbia. Sorry I can't be more helpful

Haha thank you for the sarcasm :P
Yeah, I pretty much assumed there won't be any information here but I was just hoping

BlueDiamond
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby BlueDiamond » Tue May 03, 2011 3:52 pm

FantasticMrFox wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:Most of us really only have knowledge about the Canadian law school system, in which case I would say go to Toronto. But if your looking to get into an international field, go for Yale, Harvard or Columbia. Sorry I can't be more helpful

Haha thank you for the sarcasm :P
Yeah, I pretty much assumed there won't be any information here but I was just hoping


I don't think it was sarcasm.. most law programs overseas are undergraduate degrees.. so basically you need to go to a US law school and then go overseas

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby FantasticMrFox » Tue May 03, 2011 6:21 pm

BlueDiamond wrote:
FantasticMrFox wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:Most of us really only have knowledge about the Canadian law school system, in which case I would say go to Toronto. But if your looking to get into an international field, go for Yale, Harvard or Columbia. Sorry I can't be more helpful

Haha thank you for the sarcasm :P
Yeah, I pretty much assumed there won't be any information here but I was just hoping


I don't think it was sarcasm.. most law programs overseas are undergraduate degrees.. so basically you need to go to a US law school and then go overseas

His comment about most of the TLSers only having knowledge about Canadian law school system was definitely sarcasm :P

And the reason why I made this thread was because I don't want to be specifically doing international law (I actually don't know much about it but if I wanted to do something on an international scale, I would go for comparative politics or international affairs instead...I was merely asking about practicing law in the UK--and yes, I understand I'd need UG there, the reason for which I am debating the idea now rather than later)

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue May 03, 2011 9:59 pm

It wasn't. I meant that we have knowledge of schools in the US and Canada because we have more access to them through TLS and LSAC. The list of schools was a misinterpretation of your goals, mb. I posted that because to do international work, you have to go to a school with international prestige (H,Y) or international presence (CLS). I wasn't purposefully being a jackass.

Calm down OP

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Kimchi_smile
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby Kimchi_smile » Wed May 04, 2011 2:52 am

If you will "probably end up staying here", assuming that here means the US, then it doesn't make sense to go to a UG law program in the UK. Study where you'll eventually practice. Isn't that obvious?

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FlanAl
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby FlanAl » Wed May 04, 2011 3:03 am

if you want to go international just for kicks do a one year masters in the UK. Don't go to law school there unless you want to re-locate and realize that its a bitch to get a decent paying job over there (more so than here)

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math101
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby math101 » Wed May 04, 2011 3:13 am

First off, it does not really sound like you have this planned out in any substantial way (this is not meant to be an attack, just a warning that if you apply to UK schools, you'll need to show a serious commitment).

But, if you're serious, Oxbridge have a 2 year Accelerated LLB programme for students who have already completed an undergrad degree. The regular length LLB is 3 years, which is the same as a US JD, so you wouldn't be 'losing' any time doing that instead. If you then stay in the UK to work as a lawyer, you'll need to choose between a solicitor and a barrister track. You will also need to train for several years post graduation. If you work for a UK firm, the on-the-job training is not paid nearly as well as a biglaw gig in the US. You will also need to pass a series of exams similar to the bar (I cannot remember how many exactly there are).

You will not be able to practice in the US. To do that, I believe you'll have to come back and do an LLM here.

Disclaimer: I have not done a law degree in the UK. I studied at Oxbridge and had friends that did do the Accelerated LLB. This information is dated by 2 years. Anyone should feel free to correct any of the information I have posted here if it is in error.

Curry

Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby Curry » Wed May 04, 2011 3:17 am

math101 wrote:First off, it does not really sound like you have this planned out in any substantial way (this is not meant to be an attack, just a warning that if you apply to UK schools, you'll need to show a serious commitment).

But, if you're serious, Oxbridge have a 2 year Accelerated LLB programme for students who have already completed an undergrad degree. The regular length LLB is 3 years, which is the same as a US JD, so you wouldn't be 'losing' any time doing that instead. If you then stay in the UK to work as a lawyer, you'll need to choose between a solicitor and a barrister track. You will also need to train for several years post graduation. If you work for a UK firm, the on-the-job training is not paid nearly as well as a biglaw gig in the US. You will also need to pass a series of exams similar to the bar (I cannot remember how many exactly there are).

You will not be able to practice in the US. To do that, I believe you'll have to come back and do an LLM here.

Disclaimer: I have not done a law degree in the UK. I studied at Oxbridge and had friends that did do the Accelerated LLB. This information is dated by 2 years. Anyone should feel free to correct any of the information I have posted here if it is in error.

This is very credited. The only thing I think thats wrong is the moving to the US thing. If you join an international firm and ask for a transfer to the United States, assuming you pass the bar in that state, you can work in the US. (I had a cousin just do this).

ETA: by international firm, i mean a firm that has offices in both London and in the US

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math101
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby math101 » Wed May 04, 2011 3:25 am

Curry wrote:
math101 wrote:First off, it does not really sound like you have this planned out in any substantial way (this is not meant to be an attack, just a warning that if you apply to UK schools, you'll need to show a serious commitment).

But, if you're serious, Oxbridge have a 2 year Accelerated LLB programme for students who have already completed an undergrad degree. The regular length LLB is 3 years, which is the same as a US JD, so you wouldn't be 'losing' any time doing that instead. If you then stay in the UK to work as a lawyer, you'll need to choose between a solicitor and a barrister track. You will also need to train for several years post graduation. If you work for a UK firm, the on-the-job training is not paid nearly as well as a biglaw gig in the US. You will also need to pass a series of exams similar to the bar (I cannot remember how many exactly there are).

You will not be able to practice in the US. To do that, I believe you'll have to come back and do an LLM here.

Disclaimer: I have not done a law degree in the UK. I studied at Oxbridge and had friends that did do the Accelerated LLB. This information is dated by 2 years. Anyone should feel free to correct any of the information I have posted here if it is in error.

This is very credited. The only thing I think thats wrong is the moving to the US thing. If you join an international firm and ask for a transfer to the United States, assuming you pass the bar in that state, you can work in the US. (I had a cousin just do this).

ETA: by international firm, i mean a firm that has offices in both London and in the US


Thanks, I didn't have any experience with that part and didn't feel like figuring it out more than mere speculation for OP :) .

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lisjjen
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby lisjjen » Wed May 04, 2011 3:52 am

Also. Laws are what define nations. Unlike environemntal science or literature or chemistry, where the concepts are nearly the same no matter where you study them, laws are always specific to the nation they originated in. If you want to be based in the US, definitely go to a US school and then study abroad a semester or two.

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby FantasticMrFox » Wed May 04, 2011 5:24 am

math101 wrote:First off, it does not really sound like you have this planned out in any substantial way (this is not meant to be an attack, just a warning that if you apply to UK schools, you'll need to show a serious commitment).

But, if you're serious, Oxbridge have a 2 year Accelerated LLB programme for students who have already completed an undergrad degree. The regular length LLB is 3 years, which is the same as a US JD, so you wouldn't be 'losing' any time doing that instead. If you then stay in the UK to work as a lawyer, you'll need to choose between a solicitor and a barrister track. You will also need to train for several years post graduation. If you work for a UK firm, the on-the-job training is not paid nearly as well as a biglaw gig in the US. You will also need to pass a series of exams similar to the bar (I cannot remember how many exactly there are).

Thanks!! (Yeah, I definitely hadn't planned this out much mainly because it's sort of a new choice for me) But I read that a lot of British lawyers were being allured into working for US law firms (in the UK) because of the differences in salaries, so they practice British laws, right?

lisjjen wrote:Also. Laws are what define nations. Unlike environemntal science or literature or chemistry, where the concepts are nearly the same no matter where you study them, laws are always specific to the nation they originated in. If you want to be based in the US, definitely go to a US school and then study abroad a semester or two.

Yup, hence why I was wondering whether I should transfer to the UK for UG (when they learn law)

JamMasterJ wrote:It wasn't. I meant that we have knowledge of schools in the US and Canada because we have more access to them through TLS and LSAC. The list of schools was a misinterpretation of your goals, mb. I posted that because to do international work, you have to go to a school with international prestige (H,Y) or international presence (CLS). I wasn't purposefully being a jackass.

Calm down OP

Ah, sorry if I came off as overreacting to your comment--I wasn't :o As I said, I assumed I wouldn't receive much info (although math101 answered the questions I had) and your comment sort of pointed to the stupidity of my question being here :oops: meh, I actually thought it was a good taste of sarcasm but oh well :x

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed May 04, 2011 12:40 pm

It's cool, and sorry if my post was little more than a regurgitation

tvt86
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby tvt86 » Thu May 05, 2011 10:01 am

I did my law school as un UG in the UK. Considering the situation as you'd describe it, I'd say you're much better off going to law school here in the US.

First of all, the law degree there will take you 3 years (or 2 if you do it accelerated)*. After that, before you can practice, you have to take another year of study, which covers all of the 'practical' elements of being a lawyer. This is the LPC for solicitors or the BVC for barristers. That's an expensive and uninteresting year.

Secondly, if you later change your mind or you can't get a job there and decide to return to the States, it's difficult with a UK legal education. I know that because I'm currently in the midst of making that transition. In some states (like New York) you can sit the bar right away with a UK law degree and you're good to go. In others (like California, Virginia and Louisiana), you'll need to get an LLM first. In others (many others), you will need to do an entire JD degree before you're eligible, so your UK degree will basically be no use.

On the other hand, if you go to law school here in the US, transferring to the UK is more straightforward. There is demand (or at least there was before the economy tanked) for US-qualified lawyers to work in international firms in the US. And to become licensed in the UK having earned your JD, you just need to take a test called the Qualified Lawyers' Transfer Test.


*If you do want to go for it and go to the UK, look at the GDL instead of the LLB. That's a 1-year 'law conversion' for people who already have an undergrad. It's less interesting than a real law degree because it's basically just lots of cramming, but possibly more cost-effective.

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby FantasticMrFox » Thu May 05, 2011 10:04 am

tvt86 wrote:I did my law school as un UG in the UK. Considering the situation as you'd describe it, I'd say you're much better off going to law school here in the US.

First of all, the law degree there will take you 3 years (or 2 if you do it accelerated)*. After that, before you can practice, you have to take another year of study, which covers all of the 'practical' elements of being a lawyer. This is the LPC for solicitors or the BVC for barristers. That's an expensive and uninteresting year.

Secondly, if you later change your mind or you can't get a job there and decide to return to the States, it's difficult with a UK legal education. I know that because I'm currently in the midst of making that transition. In some states (like New York) you can sit the bar right away with a UK law degree and you're good to go. In others (like California, Virginia and Louisiana), you'll need to get an LLM first. In others (many others), you will need to do an entire JD degree before you're eligible, so your UK degree will basically be no use.

On the other hand, if you go to law school here in the US, transferring to the UK is more straightforward. There is demand (or at least there was before the economy tanked) for US-qualified lawyers to work in international firms in the US. And to become licensed in the UK having earned your JD, you just need to take a test called the Qualified Lawyers' Transfer Test.


*If you do want to go for it and go to the UK, look at the GDL instead of the LLB. That's a 1-year 'law conversion' for people who already have an undergrad. It's less interesting than a real law degree because it's basically just lots of cramming, but possibly more cost-effective.

Thank you so much! (wow, that was exactly what i was looking for :D)

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Cravin
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby Cravin » Thu May 05, 2011 10:18 am

Anybody have any similar information for US - Australia or vice versa?

tvt86
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby tvt86 » Thu May 05, 2011 11:30 am

Coming to the US with an Australian law degree works in the same way as I described above in reference to coming from England. NY is the only state in which you're likely to be able to sit for the bar immediately; other states vary. All of the state-by-state information for those planning on practicing in the US with a foreign law degree is in this document, on the pages labeled 14-19 (which are pages 26-31 of the PDF). --LinkRemoved--

Your ability to practice in Australia with a US law degree will depend on the Australian state that you're going to. If you're looking at jobs in Sydney, for example, your eligibility will be governed by the Law Society of New South Wales http://www.lawsociety.com.au/ForSolicto ... /index.htm. For Melbourne, it'll be the Law Institute of Victoria. As with England, depending on the economy, you may be able to get a job practicing US law in Australia with an international firm.

In general, my experience with Australia is that you have to submit your credentials to the relevant state body for evaluation. They'll then tell you whether you're good to go or whether you need to take more classes in Australia. If you're thinking of going there, I would contact some of the state bodies for general guidance on how they deal with US lawyers.

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby FantasticMrFox » Thu May 05, 2011 9:55 pm

I also read that NY allows LLB degree holders to sit for the bar exam meaning other forms of JD like the BA in some of the UK universities--I assume--won't work.

tvt86
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby tvt86 » Fri May 06, 2011 8:58 am

FantasticMrFox wrote:I also read that NY allows LLB degree holders to sit for the bar exam meaning other forms of JD like the BA in some of the UK universities--I assume--won't work.


That's not really the case. I can't speak generally for every different type of law degree in the common law world. But my English law degree is actually a BA rather than an LLB, and I'm eligible to sit for the bar in NY.

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby FantasticMrFox » Fri May 06, 2011 12:32 pm

tvt86 wrote:
FantasticMrFox wrote:I also read that NY allows LLB degree holders to sit for the bar exam meaning other forms of JD like the BA in some of the UK universities--I assume--won't work.


That's not really the case. I can't speak generally for every different type of law degree in the common law world. But my English law degree is actually a BA rather than an LLB, and I'm eligible to sit for the bar in NY.

:o nice! this is certainly good to know; also, do you have any experience with working for a different country's firm in London with the BA/LLB? Like American firms?

tvt86
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Re: Law Schools Abroad

Postby tvt86 » Sat May 07, 2011 10:52 pm

The firm I worked at in London was a British-based international firm. But I have several friends who have English law degrees and are currently working for American firms in London. Feel free to PM me or keep the questions coming on here. More than happy to provide any information you might need about this stuff.




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