Is it even worth it now?

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)
User avatar
powerlawyer06
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:20 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby powerlawyer06 » Sun May 01, 2011 3:14 pm

Tanicius wrote:Your original suggestion was that med grads (if one can get into med school) will have potentially worse prospects than most law grads. That's ridiculous, socialized medicine or not. It also remains ridiculous entirely regardless of whether or not we end up putting salary caps on physicians and/or work out a deal to pay back med student loans.



I definitely see what you mean. I guess my original post was sort of unclear. I meant that graduates going into debt for a T14 that get jobs have a much more certain future than MDs. No matter what the outcome MDs will probably be better off but if you were going to Med school certain you would make 300k plus you may want to reevaluate. I don't think the top range for law school graduates will decrease or change as significantly as MDs (if sociallized medicine becomes a reality). There is no pending legislation that would regulate the amount of fees lawyers can charge.

I think what you are referring to is the uncertainity of attending law school and then finding a job (I acknowledge this point). There are fewer med schools so graduates are pretty much guaranteed jobs where T14s graduates generally need to be above median to find good employment.

deadhipsters
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:29 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby deadhipsters » Sun May 01, 2011 3:15 pm

dissonance1848 wrote:Fuck, from reading that economix post, the obvious career choice is to move to Australia, get citizenship, pay next to nothing for med school, and make more as a specialist than in the US in a country where your cash goes farther. Sounds like a win.


Bingo.

User avatar
powerlawyer06
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:20 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby powerlawyer06 » Sun May 01, 2011 3:21 pm

dissonance1848 wrote:Why the fuck doesn't the AMA have an anti-trust suit from the federal government on its ass for the shortage of doctors? Given that medicine is way more inelastic in demand than legal services.


+1, valid question....this is what drives up medical costs(along with malpractice suites, for profit insurance companies, increasing medical school education costs, etc)

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Hannibal » Sun May 01, 2011 3:23 pm

powerlawyer06 wrote: I meant that graduates going into debt for a T14 that get jobs have a much more certain future than MDs. No matter what the outcome MDs will probably be better off


These two sentences, right next to each other, directly contradict each other.

Also that first sentence makes no sense.

User avatar
powerlawyer06
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:20 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby powerlawyer06 » Sun May 01, 2011 3:32 pm

Hannibal wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote: I meant that graduates going into debt for a T14 that get jobs have a much more certain future than MDs. No matter what the outcome MDs will probably be better off


These two sentences, right next to each other, directly contradict each other.


No they don't.

Law school applicants attending a T14 are investing three years and 100k-200k(depending on scholarships/fin aid) to make in the 130k-170k range(starting) with a chance at earning 200k+ at some point in the future.

Med school applicants are investing six years (4 for school, 2 for residency) and many more if they are specializing and 150k-200k in to make 90k-150k(starting) with the opportunity to earn 300k+ at some point in the future.

What puts them in a better position is that they are all but guaranteed jobs. What makes their futures less certain is that the 300k potential could be completely wiped out by socialized medicine. They will still be okay economically but the upside potential of getting an MD would be greatly diminished.

User avatar
Tanicius
Posts: 2957
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:54 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Tanicius » Sun May 01, 2011 3:32 pm

Hannibal wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote: I meant that graduates going into debt for a T14 that get jobs have a much more certain future than MDs. No matter what the outcome MDs will probably be better off


These two sentences, right next to each other, directly contradict each other.

Also that first sentence makes no sense.



He's saying that once a law student lands a job they're generally okay. That assumes it's a high paying one or they're shooting for the LRAP of course.

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Hannibal » Sun May 01, 2011 3:41 pm

Tanicius wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote: I meant that graduates going into debt for a T14 that get jobs have a much more certain future than MDs. No matter what the outcome MDs will probably be better off


These two sentences, right next to each other, directly contradict each other.

Also that first sentence makes no sense.



He's saying that once a law student lands a job they're generally okay. That assumes it's a high paying one or they're shooting for the LRAP of course.


Even if you outright exclude the employment factor (not sure why he's doing that), a great majority of students that graduate med school will make more than a good law student at a T14. Unless you believe the derp that socialized medicine will eliminate the profession, which beyond being stupid within itself, does not apply since Obamacare is nowhere close to socialized medicine.
Last edited by Hannibal on Sun May 01, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
beachbum
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby beachbum » Sun May 01, 2011 3:43 pm

Are we in fucking groundhog day? Every. single. time. a discussion like this gets started, it degenerates (quickly) into bickering over med school, doctors, and the AMA. This exact discussion has already played out dozens of times before on these forums. Seriously, just look it up. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

And the final answer is always something along the lines of this: if you really want to become a lawyer, attend a top school (i.e. T13/14) or a strong regional school while limiting your debt. The economy (and legal market) is slowly improving, but likely won't be at pre-recession (i.e. 2007) hiring levels for a very long time, if ever. Thus, you have to have a strong desire to actually practice law, and you have to make smart financial decisions while attending a school that will allow you to, well, practice law.

Ok, super. Now back to that same tired discussion.

User avatar
vamedic03
Posts: 1579
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:50 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby vamedic03 » Sun May 01, 2011 3:44 pm

Hannibal wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:
Hannibal wrote:General care practitioners make over 300k to start. And there are more positions than can be filled.

Is this a joke? Do you post stuff without having any prior knowledge?

http://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/news ... ctors-paid

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... tage_N.htm


I read that the starting salary of practitioners was 350k, and even that couldn't pull students away from specialization. I can't find the article, it may have been significantly less. It was a while ago.

Even if it was, your original post is still flat out wrong even by your own evidence.


Dude, this is just wrong. Only a handful of specialties will start out at over 200k (Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, and Dermatology). Most primary care specialties will make $100-$150k starting out and, unless you happen to become a partner in a very successful practice, will top out around $200k. There are plenty of general surgeons who are pulling 80 hour weeks for ~200k mid-career. And, there are plenty of cardiac surgeons who, due to decreased demand, fight to get a job.

And, the non-lucrative areas can be horrendous - I knew plenty of pediatrics and psychiatrist residents who were thrilled to be offer >90k starting.

Medicine can certainly provide people with solid upper middle class salaries, but this bullshit about primary care physicians starting at $350k is unfounded bullshit.

And, my experiences are based on a prior career in health care and not some unidentified article that doesn't exist.

User avatar
Hannibal
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:00 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Hannibal » Sun May 01, 2011 3:45 pm

I admitted I was probably mistaken a while ago (actually within that post...). I should probably just stick to why the socialized medicine thing is ridiculous.

User avatar
Bartlebee06
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Bartlebee06 » Sun May 01, 2011 4:14 pm

Even if you outright exclude the employment factor (not sure why he's doing that), a great majority of students that graduate med school will make more than a good law student at a T14. Unless you believe the derp that socialized medicine will eliminate the profession, which beyond being stupid within itself, does not apply since Obamacare is nowhere close to socialized medicine.[/quote]


You obviously paid no attention to Obama when he was campaigning. You can find severeal instances on youtube where he gave speeches on his healthcare ideas. First he said he would want to impliment a "single-payer system" (socialist) system. He also said that "much like Canada, there would need to be a transitionary bill put into place which would lead us to the single-payer system." This is Obamacare. The transition bill. It will jam up the system enough that we will be begging for socialism. By design. Why do you think over 1000 waivers have been granted for heavily lobbied companies and why doesnt it take effect until after the 2012 election? Because its going to suck and he knows it. Its supposed to. Do some homework. And you obviously have no friends who are doctors because they arent making what you think they are. Granted, they make alot but for what they have to do to get there they should. Also, People with shitty leagal systems cant really come to America for help with their legal trouble. Yet having spent much time in Canada, I happen to know several people who come to America to pay cash for procedures because they are worried they might die while they wait for the socialist system to get them in. They are worried that when we let govt. take over our med system they will have no where to go.

aliarrow
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby aliarrow » Sun May 01, 2011 4:19 pm

Bartlebee06 wrote:You obviously paid no attention to Obama when he was campaigning. You can find severeal instances on youtube where he gave speeches on his healthcare ideas. First he said he would want to impliment a "single-payer system" (socialism) system. He also said that "much like Canada, there would need to be a transitionary bill put into place which would lead us to the single-payer system." This is Obamacare. The transition bill. It will jam up the system enough that we will be begging for socialism. By design. Why do you think over 1000 waivers have been granted for hevilt lobbied companies and why doesnt it take effect until after the 2012 election? Because its going to suck and he knows it. Its supposed to. Do some homework. You obviously have no friends who are doctors because they arent making what you think they are. Granted, they make alot but for what they have to do to get there they should. Also, People with shitty leagal systems cant really come to America for help with there leagal trouble. Yet having spent much time in Canada, I happen to know several people who come to America to pay cash for procedures because they are worried they might die while they wait for the socialist system to get them in. They are worried that when we let govt. take over our med system they will have no where to go.


Oh no.

And your inability to spell 'legal' on Top-Law-Schools startles me.

User avatar
ahduth
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:55 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby ahduth » Sun May 01, 2011 4:22 pm

aliarrow wrote:
Bartlebee06 wrote:You obviously paid no attention to Obama when he was campaigning. You can find severeal instances on youtube where he gave speeches on his healthcare ideas. First he said he would want to impliment a "single-payer system" (socialism) system. He also said that "much like Canada, there would need to be a transitionary bill put into place which would lead us to the single-payer system." This is Obamacare. The transition bill. It will jam up the system enough that we will be begging for socialism. By design. Why do you think over 1000 waivers have been granted for hevilt lobbied companies and why doesnt it take effect until after the 2012 election? Because its going to suck and he knows it. Its supposed to. Do some homework. You obviously have no friends who are doctors because they arent making what you think they are. Granted, they make alot but for what they have to do to get there they should. Also, People with shitty leagal systems cant really come to America for help with there leagal trouble. Yet having spent much time in Canada, I happen to know several people who come to America to pay cash for procedures because they are worried they might die while they wait for the socialist system to get them in. They are worried that when we let govt. take over our med system they will have no where to go.


Oh no.

And your inability to spell 'legal' on Top-Law-Schools startles me.


It's "leagal." Thanks.

(I <3 right wingers with their cute little faith-based political positions.)

aliarrow
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby aliarrow » Sun May 01, 2011 4:23 pm

ahduth wrote:
aliarrow wrote:
Bartlebee06 wrote:You obviously paid no attention to Obama when he was campaigning. You can find severeal instances on youtube where he gave speeches on his healthcare ideas. First he said he would want to impliment a "single-payer system" (socialism) system. He also said that "much like Canada, there would need to be a transitionary bill put into place which would lead us to the single-payer system." This is Obamacare. The transition bill. It will jam up the system enough that we will be begging for socialism. By design. Why do you think over 1000 waivers have been granted for hevilt lobbied companies and why doesnt it take effect until after the 2012 election? Because its going to suck and he knows it. Its supposed to. Do some homework. You obviously have no friends who are doctors because they arent making what you think they are. Granted, they make alot but for what they have to do to get there they should. Also, People with shitty leagal systems cant really come to America for help with there leagal trouble. Yet having spent much time in Canada, I happen to know several people who come to America to pay cash for procedures because they are worried they might die while they wait for the socialist system to get them in. They are worried that when we let govt. take over our med system they will have no where to go.


Oh no.

And your inability to spell 'legal' on Top-Law-Schools startles me.


It's "leagal." Thanks.

(I <3 right wingers with their cute little faith-based political positions.)


Christ-Care Brah

User avatar
Bartlebee06
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Bartlebee06 » Sun May 01, 2011 4:24 pm

aliarrow wrote:
Bartlebee06 wrote:You obviously paid no attention to Obama when he was campaigning. You can find severeal instances on youtube where he gave speeches on his healthcare ideas. First he said he would want to impliment a "single-payer system" (socialism) system. He also said that "much like Canada, there would need to be a transitionary bill put into place which would lead us to the single-payer system." This is Obamacare. The transition bill. It will jam up the system enough that we will be begging for socialism. By design. Why do you think over 1000 waivers have been granted for hevilt lobbied companies and why doesnt it take effect until after the 2012 election? Because its going to suck and he knows it. Its supposed to. Do some homework. You obviously have no friends who are doctors because they arent making what you think they are. Granted, they make alot but for what they have to do to get there they should. Also, People with shitty leagal systems cant really come to America for help with there leagal trouble. Yet having spent much time in Canada, I happen to know several people who come to America to pay cash for procedures because they are worried they might die while they wait for the socialist system to get them in. They are worried that when we let govt. take over our med system they will have no where to go.


Oh no.

And your inability to spell 'legal' on Top-Law-Schools startles me.


Yes. A mistake. That I edited mind you. I guess you never make them. Do you have anything to add to the conversation or is it just your job to nit pick spelling.

User avatar
beachbum
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby beachbum » Sun May 01, 2011 4:25 pm

aliarrow wrote:Christ-Care Brah


--ImageRemoved--

aliarrow
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby aliarrow » Sun May 01, 2011 4:27 pm

If you want my view, simplify. Socialized medicine since healthcare is a necessity and should be guaranteed for the poor without making them go bankrupt every time they break a leg.
Free-to-cheap Med school with modest starting salaries for doctors (think $80-90k) and significantly more difficulty in pursuing malpractice suits.

Seems like the obvious answer from day one, the system we have now is just fucking retarded.

User avatar
Bartlebee06
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Bartlebee06 » Sun May 01, 2011 4:28 pm

ahduth wrote:
aliarrow wrote:
Bartlebee06 wrote:You obviously paid no attention to Obama when he was campaigning. You can find severeal instances on youtube where he gave speeches on his healthcare ideas. First he said he would want to impliment a "single-payer system" (socialism) system. He also said that "much like Canada, there would need to be a transitionary bill put into place which would lead us to the single-payer system." This is Obamacare. The transition bill. It will jam up the system enough that we will be begging for socialism. By design. Why do you think over 1000 waivers have been granted for hevilt lobbied companies and why doesnt it take effect until after the 2012 election? Because its going to suck and he knows it. Its supposed to. Do some homework. You obviously have no friends who are doctors because they arent making what you think they are. Granted, they make alot but for what they have to do to get there they should. Also, People with shitty leagal systems cant really come to America for help with there leagal trouble. Yet having spent much time in Canada, I happen to know several people who come to America to pay cash for procedures because they are worried they might die while they wait for the socialist system to get them in. They are worried that when we let govt. take over our med system they will have no where to go.


Oh no.

And your inability to spell 'legal' on Top-Law-Schools startles me.


It's "leagal." Thanks.

(I <3 right wingers with their cute little faith-based political positions.)


So you go into attack mode rather than admitting that he said those things and the implications them

User avatar
ahduth
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:55 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby ahduth » Sun May 01, 2011 4:29 pm

Bartlebee06 wrote:
ahduth wrote:
aliarrow wrote:
Bartlebee06 wrote:You obviously paid no attention to Obama when he was campaigning. You can find severeal instances on youtube where he gave speeches on his healthcare ideas. First he said he would want to impliment a "single-payer system" (socialism) system. He also said that "much like Canada, there would need to be a transitionary bill put into place which would lead us to the single-payer system." This is Obamacare. The transition bill. It will jam up the system enough that we will be begging for socialism. By design. Why do you think over 1000 waivers have been granted for hevilt lobbied companies and why doesnt it take effect until after the 2012 election? Because its going to suck and he knows it. Its supposed to. Do some homework. You obviously have no friends who are doctors because they arent making what you think they are. Granted, they make alot but for what they have to do to get there they should. Also, People with shitty leagal systems cant really come to America for help with there leagal trouble. Yet having spent much time in Canada, I happen to know several people who come to America to pay cash for procedures because they are worried they might die while they wait for the socialist system to get them in. They are worried that when we let govt. take over our med system they will have no where to go.


Oh no.

And your inability to spell 'legal' on Top-Law-Schools startles me.


It's "leagal." Thanks.

(I <3 right wingers with their cute little faith-based political positions.)


So you go into attack mode rather than admitting that he said those things and the implications them


I'm not sure if he said them or not. Either way, that seems to be the logical outcome of the bill as it was designed. And I favor that. So what's the problem?

User avatar
powerlawyer06
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:20 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby powerlawyer06 » Sun May 01, 2011 4:39 pm

Now that I read this thread...

I apologize for derailing this thread into a Med vs. Law and socialized medicine debate. I defend my original intent but this was not the purpose of the thread.

I agree with Knock: It depends.

For me personally it makes a ton of sense but it may not make sense for others.
Last edited by powerlawyer06 on Sun May 01, 2011 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Bartlebee06
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Bartlebee06 » Sun May 01, 2011 4:39 pm

The problem is that socialism is not the answer. If it is then why do people from other countries come here for care? We have high cost here because the insurance lobby has a monopoly on each state. We cant buy coverage across state lines like all other coverage. Malpractice suits are out of control. Illegal aliens are robbing us blind. Many old people who have plenty of money are allowed to milk the system. We have alot of things to fix with our system for sure but socialism is not the answer. Talk to people who live under such a system, Dont go by what Micheal Moore or even I say. Find out for yourself. To think that the answer to everything is govt. take over is just plain crazy.

aliarrow
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby aliarrow » Sun May 01, 2011 4:48 pm

Yeah, fuck socialism and their miserable countries

Happiest Countries
http://www.forbes.com/2011/01/19/norway ... de_11.html

Healthiest Countries
http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/07/health ... ealth.html

Life Expectancies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy

(Older Data, current not available)
Preventable Deaths By Country
http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/preve ... _2008.html

WHO Ranking of Health Systems
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html


So take your pick, anecdotes or not-so-great-but-still-better-than-anecdotes Data.

User avatar
ahduth
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:55 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby ahduth » Sun May 01, 2011 4:50 pm

powerlawyer06 wrote:Now that I read this thread...

I apologize for derailing this thread into a Med vs. Law and socialized medicine debate. I defend my original intent but this was not the purpose of the thread.

I agree with Knock: It depends.

For me personally it makes a ton of sense but it may not make sense for others.


Man, this thread was a pile of garbage the minute it was posted. Everyone should know at this point what they're getting into.

User avatar
Bartlebee06
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby Bartlebee06 » Sun May 01, 2011 4:53 pm

aliarrow wrote:Yeah, fuck socialism and their miserable countries

Happiest Countries
http://www.forbes.com/2011/01/19/norway ... de_11.html

Healthiest Countries
http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/07/health ... ealth.html

Life Expectancies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy

(Older Data, current not available)
Preventable Deaths By Country
http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/preve ... _2008.html

WHO Ranking of Health Systems
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html


So take your pick, anecdotes or not-so-great-but-still-better-than-anecdotes Data.


So move to one of those countries. These polls are highly subjective and quite frankly I am not sure why anyone would care what they say. Again, talk to someone personally and see what they think.

User avatar
ahduth
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:55 am

Re: Is it even worth it now?

Postby ahduth » Sun May 01, 2011 4:55 pm

The whole "why do people come here from other countries" meme is one of the worst examples of the Republican party trying to peddle their wares to the middle class. It should be more along the lines of "why do people with money from other countries come here for medical care." It blithely ignores the concept that there are people in this country who rely on emergency rooms, because our insurance system is so poorly designed. It ignores the fact that private insurance premiums rise at several times the rate of inflation every year. It ignores the fact that it's virtually impossible to get insurance as an individual in this country.

Anecdotes sure do make really neat stories for television set though, don't they.




Return to “Law School FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests