Follow TLS Advice = Success???

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AP-375
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Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby AP-375 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:59 pm

Starting 1L this fall at a #20-30, (75th percentile on LSAT, FWIW*), and I've got a couple Qs on law school success. Feel free to link to a better thread, if you've got it.
Specifically:

1) Are there people out there who followed all of the collective "success in law school" thread advice and still performed poorly?
or
If you take the advice, follow a gameplan, and work super hard, do you have a really good chance at success?

2) If you are following all the advice, are there any specific pitfalls to avoid?

*I only include the LSAT percentile because some argue that it is relevant to law school success, so maybe it will be relevant to some of the responses.
Last edited by AP-375 on Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fatduck
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Re: Is Law School Success Really Random??

Postby fatduck » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:00 pm

flip a coin:

if heads, yes
if tails, no

AP-375
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Re: Is Law School Success Really Random??

Postby AP-375 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:09 pm

fatduck wrote:flip a coin:

if heads, yes
if tails, no

This is exactly the type of substantive response I was hoping for.

lhlee
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Re: Is Law School Success Really Random??

Postby lhlee » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:20 pm

AP-375 wrote:
fatduck wrote:flip a coin:

if heads, yes
if tails, no

This is exactly the type of substantive response I was hoping for.


Not very helpful...but fwiw, I planned to follow some of these TLS guides but have it toned down a little. I'm aimig for PI though, so it's an option. Also, I think some of the advice = overkill and not necessary (studying might have diminishing returns).

But from what I learned from school-advice only means something if it works for you. Maybe nothing on here helps and you need to find your own way to learn.

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Drake014
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby Drake014 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:21 pm

AP-375 wrote:Starting 1L this fall at a #20-30, (75th percentile on LSAT, FWIW*), and I've got a couple Qs on law school success. Feel free to link to a better thread, if you've got it.
Specifically:

1) Are there people out there who followed all of the collective "success in law school" thread advice and still performed poorly?
or
If you take the advice, follow a gameplan, and work super hard, do you have a really good chance at success?

2) If you are following all the advice, are there any specific pitfalls to avoid?

*I only include the LSAT percentile because some argue that it is relevant to law school success, so maybe it will be relevant to some of the responses.


I followed very little of the TLS advice and I'm looking at a firm job. My advice is to follow what works for you.

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Paichka
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby Paichka » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:26 pm

Well, you need to keep in mind that some of the success in law school advice is contradictory -- some of the advice advocates reading EVERYTHING, some advocates reading only supplements and ignoring the casebook, some advocates ignoring supplements and spending all of your time going through the casebook with a fine-tooth comb and talking to professors during office hours. Each of these are examples of strategies that have worked for certain people -- the most important thing (in my mind) is to figure out what is going to work FOR YOU based on your unique perspective on what you can realistically expect out of yourself.

I followed (for the most part) Xeoh's advice, and so far I'm doing very well (3.99 cum). However, I know that I have a grinder-type personality -- I can happily get lost in Moore's Federal Practice while making my outlines (which are generally 50-60 pages long, tabbed, and color-coded), and I have no problem ignoring my social life in favor of school (of course, I also have kids, which means I'd probably be ignoring my social life anyway). If you don't have that kind of personality, you're going to make yourself miserable trying to follow Xeoh's strategy.

IN GENERAL, a willingness to work, a good memory, great organizational skills and an ability to avoid getting lost in the weeds is going to translate to success in law school. So, my advice is to read over each of the success guides, and pick the one that works best with your personality -- give it a few weeks, maybe a month, and re-evaluate. If you find yourself burning out, or not following what's going on in class, try another guide's approach. The key here is to stay flexible.

Anyhoo. Good luck.

dougroberts
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby dougroberts » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:38 pm

Paichka wrote:I followed (for the most part) Xeoh's advice, and so far I'm doing very well (3.99 cum). However, I know that I have a grinder-type personality -- I can happily get lost in Moore's Federal Practice while making my outlines (which are generally 50-60 pages long, tabbed, and color-coded), and I have no problem ignoring my social life in favor of school (of course, I also have kids, which means I'd probably be ignoring my social life anyway). If you don't have that kind of personality, you're going to make yourself miserable trying to follow Xeoh's strategy.


You make us look bad! Congrats on your successes!!

I agree with Paichka. I too followed, in general, the advice on TLC re: doing well in LS and OCI/jobs to much success (but not as much as Paichka's). But beware, what works for one may not work for others.

I've noticed that those who work hard generally do better; the material is not too hard (except for some stuff like the rule of perpetuities). So, work hard, and most importantly, learn how to take law school exams. Don't go in thinking that law school exams are like normal UG exams.

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clintonius
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby clintonius » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:45 pm

Paichka wrote:Well, you need to keep in mind that some of the success in law school advice is contradictory -- some of the advice advocates reading EVERYTHING, some advocates reading only supplements and ignoring the casebook, some advocates ignoring supplements and spending all of your time going through the casebook with a fine-tooth comb and talking to professors during office hours. Each of these are examples of strategies that have worked for certain people -- the most important thing (in my mind) is to figure out what is going to work FOR YOU based on your unique perspective on what you can realistically expect out of yourself.

I followed (for the most part) Xeoh's advice, and so far I'm doing very well (3.99 cum). However, I know that I have a grinder-type personality -- I can happily get lost in Moore's Federal Practice while making my outlines (which are generally 50-60 pages long, tabbed, and color-coded), and I have no problem ignoring my social life in favor of school (of course, I also have kids, which means I'd probably be ignoring my social life anyway). If you don't have that kind of personality, you're going to make yourself miserable trying to follow Xeoh's strategy.

IN GENERAL, a willingness to work, a good memory, great organizational skills and an ability to avoid getting lost in the weeds is going to translate to success in law school. So, my advice is to read over each of the success guides, and pick the one that works best with your personality -- give it a few weeks, maybe a month, and re-evaluate. If you find yourself burning out, or not following what's going on in class, try another guide's approach. The key here is to stay flexible.

Anyhoo. Good luck.

As a counter-point, I discovered that it's possible to do well in law school without the grinder personality or excellent organizational skills. I'm certainly not at 3.99, but I did pretty well first semester while maintaining both my sanity and a social life. This isn't meant to contradict Paichka in any way -- actually, I'd bet that you're more likely to succeed if you follow that path -- but to underscore the point that you really do need to just figure out what works for you. I think the scary part is that you won't know what works for you until you get your first semester grades back, and sometimes those will only confuse you further.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:01 pm

Different people learn differently. Law school success methods vary by each individual. Try alternate approachs until you are comfortable & performing well.

AP-375
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby AP-375 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:11 pm

Thanks to all for the responses, especially Paichka, except for FatDuck. (but you're ok)

Paichka wrote: I also have kids, which means I'd probably be ignoring my social life anyway). If you don't have that kind of personality, you're going to make yourself miserable trying to follow Xeoh's strategy.

If you find yourself burning out, or not following what's going on in class, try another guide's approach. The key here is to stay flexible.


I've got kids and a super-supportive wife, so I feel like I've got the unhealthy distractions to a minimum. I've got a Kobe Bryant drive and ambition, but also know that I am a serious burnout risk if things get stagnant.
I really appreciate the advice, and I'll definitely focus on flexibility. I think what I'll do is comb through all of the advice and write up my own plan based on which behaviors I think will fit best with my academic style, which is to nail clutch jumpers and jut my lower teeth out.

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Paichka
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby Paichka » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:17 pm

clintonius wrote:As a counter-point, I discovered that it's possible to do well in law school without the grinder personality or excellent organizational skills. I'm certainly not at 3.99, but I did pretty well first semester while maintaining both my sanity and a social life. This isn't meant to contradict Paichka in any way -- actually, I'd bet that you're more likely to succeed if you follow that path -- but to underscore the point that you really do need to just figure out what works for you. I think the scary part is that you won't know what works for you until you get your first semester grades back, and sometimes those will only confuse you further.


Oh, no, I didn't mean to imply that my way (Xeoh's way) is the only want to be successful. Plenty of people follow other strategies and are just as successful (if not more so) than I am. I only meant to highlight how important it is to find a method that works for YOUR personality. :) That's all.

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clintonius
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby clintonius » Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:50 pm

Paichka wrote:
clintonius wrote:As a counter-point, I discovered that it's possible to do well in law school without the grinder personality or excellent organizational skills. I'm certainly not at 3.99, but I did pretty well first semester while maintaining both my sanity and a social life. This isn't meant to contradict Paichka in any way -- actually, I'd bet that you're more likely to succeed if you follow that path -- but to underscore the point that you really do need to just figure out what works for you. I think the scary part is that you won't know what works for you until you get your first semester grades back, and sometimes those will only confuse you further.


Oh, no, I didn't mean to imply that my way (Xeoh's way) is the only want to be successful. Plenty of people follow other strategies and are just as successful (if not more so) than I am. I only meant to highlight how important it is to find a method that works for YOUR personality. :) That's all.

I agree! I wish I could give more concrete advice to 0Ls, but "I hope you spent part of college and/or your working life figuring out your learning style" is about as universal as I'm comfortable getting.

lhlee
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby lhlee » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:22 pm

So, the answer is..it depends. :) glad we can help!

also, I study (although it's undergrad..it might work) by voice recording myself repeating stuff. THen listen to it while I work-out/run. It's like an annoying Bieber song...it sticks in your mind because you absolutely hate it. If you like to hear yourself talk, it won't work.

seriously????
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby seriously???? » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:39 pm

concerning studying in the summer time, or overkill with studying during the semester, may not actually be a correlation to LS success, but just a good quality that people who do well in LS have.

it's like a documentary I saw, where it says that people having their first child buy baby books on how to be a good parent. now these books don't really have any use, but the parents are typically good parents, because they are willing to look at those books if there is any chance that it will help them, which shows how badly and sincere they are to be good parents.

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nshapkar
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby nshapkar » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:49 pm

AP-375 wrote:Thanks to all for the responses, especially Paichka, except for FatDuck. (but you're ok)

Paichka wrote: I also have kids, which means I'd probably be ignoring my social life anyway). If you don't have that kind of personality, you're going to make yourself miserable trying to follow Xeoh's strategy.

If you find yourself burning out, or not following what's going on in class, try another guide's approach. The key here is to stay flexible.


I've got kids and a super-supportive wife, so I feel like I've got the unhealthy distractions to a minimum. I've got a Kobe Bryant drive and ambition, but also know that I am a serious burnout risk if things get stagnant.
I really appreciate the advice, and I'll definitely focus on flexibility. I think what I'll do is comb through all of the advice and write up my own plan based on which behaviors I think will fit best with my academic style, which is to nail clutch jumpers and jut my lower teeth out.



simply for the sake of the Kobe Bryant reference I feel obligated to comment in this thread and contribute nothing.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success??? A

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:13 pm

One of the big problems with law school is that nobody teaches you how to take law school exams. It's something you have to do on your own.

TLS is beneficial not because one particular method advocated here is the best, but because having any working method gives you an advantage. Most people just don't know what they're doing, period. Some methods are better than others, but nearly any method advocated here is better than none.

Here's an analogy, that will make even more sense after you start law school:

You're in a room full of people. Someone walks in, gives you each a box of Lincoln logs, and says, "I want to know how to build a house out of this." And then he leaves. Nobody knows what they're doing, they're all new to this. One of them starts putting Lincoln logs together. The others see this and start trying to build their own houses out of Lincoln logs, and suddenly half the class is in a building contest, trying to build the best house before time runs out.

But you remember what your friend told you. "No, you're supposed to explain how to do it." So you pull out a pen and paper, you decide which logs to use for the foundation, and then you write: "Building a house has to begin with a good foundation, because everything else goes on top of it. Because of this, what I chose to start with was..." It doesn't matter if you always choose the best thing, because as long as you're making sense and following the instructions, you're already ahead of half the class.

Occasionally people look at you and wonder what you're doing. You're doing something different, but they can't tell what. And it's too late for them to find out, because the clock has already started, and they have to work fast if they're going to build the best-looking house before time runs out...

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northwood
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby northwood » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:18 pm

thats a good analogy vw

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NCtoDC
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby NCtoDC » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:45 pm

northwood wrote:thats a good analogy vw


+1

traffic.lawyer
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Re: Follow TLS Advice = Success???

Postby traffic.lawyer » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:25 am

great contribustion of u all thanks for such a informative post...............




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