LSAT score and law school performance

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Mr. December
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LSAT score and law school performance

Postby Mr. December » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:05 pm

Does a student's LSAT score correspond to his or her academic performance within law school. Essentially, do the students who got the higher LSAT scores generally get better grades in law school?

beardown_tho
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby beardown_tho » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:11 pm

they certainly correlate

Near
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby Near » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:13 pm

approximately .4 correlation afaik

taxguy
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby taxguy » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:19 pm

People cite all these statistics;however, from what I have seen, there are a LOT of outliers. Not only are there those who don't corelate,but some of these outliers perform substantially different from what would have been predicted by the LSAT in both directions. I personally know two people who scored below 151 on the LSAT and who ended up in the top 5% of their law schools. In fact, one was valedictorian and had among the lowest LSAT score in his class.

On the other hand, I also know several people who scored above 165 and who ended up either flunking out of law school or doing poorly.

Overall, there is probably a mild corelation between LSAT and law school performance. However, it is mild at best and there is a large number of outliers.

09042014
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:44 pm

taxguy wrote:People cite all these statistics;however, from what I have seen, there are a LOT of outliers. Not only are there those who don't corelate,but some of these outliers perform substantially different from what would have been predicted by the LSAT in both directions. I personally know two people who scored below 151 on the LSAT and who ended up in the top 5% of their law schools. In fact, one was valedictorian and had among the lowest LSAT score in his class.

On the other hand, I also know several people who scored above 165 and who ended up either flunking out of law school or doing poorly.

Overall, there is probably a mild corelation between LSAT and law school performance. However, it is mild at best and there is a large number of outliers.


LSAT scores at most schools are so similar it doesn't matter. You'll only see it in trends of large groups.

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northwood
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby northwood » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:57 pm

most schools have a scoring band of around 3 points from the 25% to the 75% for the LSAT.

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Rock Chalk
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby Rock Chalk » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:15 pm

.
Last edited by Rock Chalk on Thu May 24, 2012 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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northwood
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby northwood » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:17 pm

true- but if you are way below the medians, chances are you aren't getting in anyways.

lawfuture10
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby lawfuture10 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:22 pm

Simply based on personal experience... Currently attending a Low t2 / T3 where the median LSAT is around 158.

Everyone that I have talked to about LSAT and grades that scored 163+ is in the top 15% of our 1L class.

Granted, this is simply anectodal and only refers to 4 or 5 people, I personally believe this is probably typical.

I scored a 166 (8 pts above the median) and am sitting in the top 2-3 students in our entire class after the first semester.

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Wholigan
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby Wholigan » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:53 pm

.
Last edited by Wholigan on Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:17 pm

In my experience the LSAT has absolutely nothing to do with law school success.

taxguy
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby taxguy » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:24 pm

I forgot to add something: Even the American Bar Association panel on the LSAT has advised that the LSAT become optional and not necessarily required due to its lack of "reliability." Despite the corelation studies done by the LSAC , there is no way the panel would have recommended that the test become optional if the corelation was so great. I also knew one of the panelists who felt that that there was a LOT lacking with the LSAT as to law school performance. From everyone I have met, I agree completely. It may be the most bogus standardized test given among the major entrance exams in the US.
Last edited by taxguy on Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:30 pm

taxguy wrote:I forgot to add something: Even the American Bar Association panel on the LSAT has advised that the LSAT become optional and not necessarily required due to its lack of "reliability."


Why do you continue to post the same wrong information when you have been discredited dozens of times?

It had nothing to do with reliability and everything to do with the USNWR rankings and promoting diversity.

Source: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011 ... s_use_lsat

taxguy
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby taxguy » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:32 pm

bk1: Bull! I knew one of the panelists. It goes to a LOT more than diversity and rankings. They felt that the test wasn't that reliable. Why don't you read the study.

In fact, one article on this noted," generally have found that such shifts attract more applicants and a more diverse applicant pool without leading to any loss in academic performance"

Read between the lines. More diverse pool with NO LOSS IN PERFORMANCE. Another words, since you need it spelled out, admitting kids with lower LSAT won't affect performance because the exam has questionable corelative significance. Moreover a number of law schools are awaiting the Bar's implementation with this recommendation to make it optional.

By the way, I NEVER, EVER said that there is no corelation. I just said , based on what I have seen, that the corelation is mild.
Last edited by taxguy on Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bk1
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:36 pm

taxguy wrote:bk1: Bull! I knew one of the panelists. It goes to a LOT more than diversity and rankings. They felt that the test wasn't that reliable. Why don't you read the study.


Would you like to post a link to the actual study, or even an article that mentions reliability as one of the reasons? I have read several of them and none of them ever mention reliability.

To your general argument: the LSAT has a 0.4 correlation (which is really strong for the social sciences but is in no way even close to foolproof). Your elementary grasp of statistics is appalling. Just because people with low LSATs do well and those with high LSATs struggle doesn't mean that a correlation does not exist. If you need a really brief explanation of it, there is one in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c).

Curry

Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby Curry » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:37 pm

taxguy wrote:bk1: Bull! I knew one of the panelists. It goes to a LOT more than diversity and rankings. They felt that the test wasn't that reliable. Why don't you read the study.

I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who got a 180 and then placed in the top 1% of his class at HLS therefore the LSAT is a reliable measure.

Do you see why your logic is bad?

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bk1
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:40 pm

To add, two of the committee members said:

Both Polden and Yellen believe that most schools would continue to require the LSAT, in part because it is the most reliable way to measure applicants against each other and make merit-based financial aid decisions.


Source: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

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Alex-Trof
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby Alex-Trof » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:41 pm

bk1 wrote:
taxguy wrote:bk1: Bull! I knew one of the panelists. It goes to a LOT more than diversity and rankings. They felt that the test wasn't that reliable. Why don't you read the study.


Would you like to post a link to the actual study, or even an article that mentions reliability as one of the reasons? I have read several of them and none of them ever mention reliability.

To your general argument: the LSAT has a 0.33 correlation (which is really strong for the social sciences but is in no way even close to foolproof). Your elementary grasp of statistics is appalling. Just because people with low LSATs do well and those with high LSATs struggle doesn't mean that a correlation does not exist. If you need a really brief explanation of it, there is one in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c).

FTFY

CanadianWolf
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:41 pm

Just read the study. Seems to focus on diversity & rankings. Reliability as a predictor of law school success was hinted at by the unaccredited Massachusetts School of Law, however.

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bk1
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:43 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:FTFY


I'll give you the fix on the number, but I'm okay with my "really" considering that it is still pretty high for the social sciences.

CanadianWolf
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:44 pm

A Virginia law dean mentioned the LSAT correlation as about 0.40 when used to predict performance during the first year of law school, and about a 0.50 correlation when paired with one's undergraduate GPA. This was a videotaped lecture regarding whether the LSAT should be optional (the presenter was a former ABA education chairman) given to AA students attending or accepted to Virginia law.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Curry

Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby Curry » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:46 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Just read the study. Seems to focus on diversity & rankings. Reliability as a predictor of law school success was hinted at by the unaccredited Massachusetts School of Law, however.

Therefore it must be the only conclusion of the study

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bk1
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:47 pm

taxguy wrote:It may be the most bogus standardized test given among the major entrance exams in the US.


I missed this gem. The LSAT is actually probably the best standardized exam for college or graduate school. A lot of which has to do with the ABA's regulation of law schools so that they are so rigidly similar as opposed to undergraduate universities and other graduate schools where there is a lot of divergence and thus the correlation is not nearly as strong for the GMAT/GRE/SAT/MCAT/etc.

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bk1
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:48 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:A Virginia law dean mentioned the LSAT correlation as about 0.40 when used to predict performance during the first year of law school, and about a 0.50 correlation when paired with one's undergraduate GPA. This was a videotaped lecture regarding whether the LSAT should be optional (the presenter was a former ABA education chairman) given to AA students attending or accepted to Virginia law.


It was Alex Johnson and he might have just been a professor at UVa at the time of his speech (he was a former law school dean as well as former dean of admissions at other places, and he also used to president of LSAC) and the video you are referring to is the YouTube one I linked above.

CanadianWolf
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Re: LSAT score and law school performance

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:48 pm

@Curry: Why don't you read the study and share your insight ?




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