UC Hastings

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toothpaste
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UC Hastings

Postby toothpaste » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:34 pm

What are your opinions about UC Hastings prestige and reputation in the near future, in terms of securing good employment positions? How do you think Hastings' prestige in the SF area is comparable to it's US News ranking? I ask this because it seems like Hastings' ranking hasn't changed much at all these last few years, and it's in an area with so many prestigious schools and a fast rising school (UC Davis), not sure if it'll affect Hastings graduates job prospects in the next few years.

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alexonfyre
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby alexonfyre » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:51 pm

toothpaste wrote:What are your opinions about UC Hastings prestige and reputation in the near future, in terms of securing good employment positions? How do you think Hastings' prestige in the SF area is comparable to it's US News ranking? I ask this because it seems like Hastings' ranking hasn't changed much at all these last few years, and it's in an area with so many prestigious schools and a fast rising school (UC Davis), not sure if it'll affect Hastings graduates job prospects in the next few years.


I am considering Hastings as one of my schools, and have been looking very seriously at the numbers. What comes to light is that Hastings 9 mo. placement numbers are similar to Davis, but @grad numbers are much better, in addition the "JD required" jobs for Hastings are significantly higher than Davis as well. I don't know what Voodoo USN was using to put UCD at #23, but by all accounts Hastings is going to give you superior job prospects.

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drdolittle
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby drdolittle » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:23 pm

It's hard to predict the future on this. For now, Hastings and Davis are viewed as peer schools, in the SF bay area both obviously seen as a step below Stanford and Berkeley, but still respected. CA employers understandably assume that if a person attends Hastings or Davis, they for sure did not get into S/B, other top national schools like Y/H/C, and most likely neither UCLA nor USC.

If Davis can keep up the significantly higher ranking for the next several years (already going on 3), a real difference in perception will get established between the schools. We're not there yet, and preventing this is a priority for the Hastings dean now. His main job is to raise money and alumni, many of whom attended Hastings when it was comfortably ranked top 20-ish, evidently raise this issue often. Hopefully, they can pressure the school to make management and educational improvements in the coming years, which should get reflected in rankings eventually.

I don't think Davis can legitimately rise much further. But it's ranked high enough as of now. It appears to be well managed by the dean and admin, and even though it's location is less than ideal for many, a persistent ranking discrepancy between the two schools will eventually overcome the clear advantage Hastings should enjoy by virtue of its location alone.

The good news is that Davis' impressive rise and Hastings' recent need to raise more $ from donors has placed a nice spotlight on Hastings' relatively poor rank. I get the sense that it's finally dawning on the admin here that it will no longer be acceptable for the school to just keep thinking highly of itself while it's rank stays relatively low, or worse yet, declines.

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alexonfyre
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby alexonfyre » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:39 pm

drdolittle wrote:It's hard to predict the future on this. For now, Hastings and Davis are viewed as peer schools, in the SF bay area both obviously seen as a step below Stanford and Berkeley, but still respected. CA employers understandably assume that if a person attends Hastings or Davis, they for sure did not get into S/B, other top national schools like Y/H/C, and most likely neither UCLA nor USC.

If Davis can keep up the significantly higher ranking for the next several years (already going on 3), a real difference in perception will get established between the schools. We're not there yet, and preventing this is a priority for the Hastings dean now. His main job is to raise money and alumni, many of whom attended Hastings when it was comfortably ranked top 20-ish, evidently raise this issue often. Hopefully, they can pressure the school to make management and educational improvements in the coming years, which should get reflected in rankings eventually.

I don't think Davis can legitimately rise much further. But it's ranked high enough as of now. It appears to be well managed by the dean and admin, and even though it's location is less than ideal for many, a persistent ranking discrepancy between the two schools will eventually overcome the clear advantage Hastings should enjoy by virtue of its location alone.

The good news is that Davis' impressive rise and Hastings' recent need to raise more $ from donors has placed a nice spotlight on Hastings' relatively poor rank. I get the sense that it's finally dawning on the admin here that it will no longer be acceptable for the school to just keep thinking highly of itself while it's rank stays relatively low, or worse yet, declines.


I think this is the best summation of the position I have read (don't let it go to your head dolittle :P )
As far as I can see, Davis is cheaper, with rising career numbers, and Hastings is much more expensive (COL and stingy with money) with threatened superiority. My personal preference is still Hastings, because I believe that 3 years from now the administration has the ability to completely quash this 20 rank disparity between them and UCD and my concerns aren't financially minded like most 0Ls.

I believe UCD is over-ranked and can't maintain that for long, and in the real world (read: not USN fantasy land) Hastings is viewed more highly than UCD, particularly outside of NorCal. This is actually evidenced by USN's own reputation score: 3.8 for Hastings vs. 3.6 for Davis. Is my argument weaker for simultaneously bashing and relying upon the same data? Yes, but I stand by my view unless someone else can prove otherwise via alternative means. 8)

bountyxhunter
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bountyxhunter » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:22 am

drdolittle wrote: The good news is that Davis' impressive rise and Hastings' recent need to raise more $ from donors has placed a nice spotlight on Hastings' relatively poor rank. I get the sense that it's finally dawning on the admin here that it will no longer be acceptable for the school to just keep thinking highly of itself while it's rank stays relatively low, or worse yet, declines.


RIGHT ARM! About time Hastings starts gaming them rankings. :)

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Lasers
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby Lasers » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:38 am

alexonfyre wrote:
toothpaste wrote:What are your opinions about UC Hastings prestige and reputation in the near future, in terms of securing good employment positions? How do you think Hastings' prestige in the SF area is comparable to it's US News ranking? I ask this because it seems like Hastings' ranking hasn't changed much at all these last few years, and it's in an area with so many prestigious schools and a fast rising school (UC Davis), not sure if it'll affect Hastings graduates job prospects in the next few years.


I am considering Hastings as one of my schools, and have been looking very seriously at the numbers. What comes to light is that Hastings 9 mo. placement numbers are similar to Davis, but @grad numbers are much better, in addition the "JD required" jobs for Hastings are significantly higher than Davis as well. I don't know what Voodoo USN was using to put UCD at #23, but by all accounts Hastings is going to give you superior job prospects.

i am still strongly considering both schools, but i am leaning towards hastings after taking a closer look at the employment numbers. it's crazy how there is a 20 ranking discrepancy between the two schools considering the employment data favors hastings.

however, it makes sense when you look at the us news methodology and what they weigh as more important.
Last edited by Lasers on Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bk1 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:47 am

Hastings and Davis have pretty much equal employment opportunities everywhere.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:49 am

bk1 wrote:Hastings and Davis have pretty much equal employment opportunities everywhere.

For some reason, Hastings seems to have a higher % reporting salaries. You can see that on LST for class of 2008 (Davis (LinkRemoved); Hastings (LinkRemoved)), and for class of 2009 in aliarrow's awesome thread.

Normally, we assume higher % reporting = higher % with something good to report, but when the schools seem to be pulling in the same NLJ250 numbers, maybe in this case one school is simply better at tracking down its grads and having them put a number on a survey?

I dunno. I have no knowledge other than data that gets posted and what people on TLS say. But Hastings numbers do look better, regardless of if they are better.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:08 am

Have you looked at the 2009 employment mega thread on this site?

27% of Hastings grads made more than $90,000; Hastings had less than 5% of its class in part time work
15% of Davis grads made more than $90,000; Davis had more than 20% of its class in part time work

If there is any doubt in your mind as to which school you should pick after seeing these statistics, maybe law school is not for you.

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drdolittle
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby drdolittle » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:03 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:maybe in this case one school is simply better at tracking down its grads and having them put a number on a survey?

Good point. Though if anything, regardless of these specific employment stats and any debate about them, I'd think Davis would be much better at keeping track of students/alumni with its relatively small, "tight-knit" class. Their claimed 95.8% "graduates known to be employed at graduation" stat currently reported in US News (for 2009 graduates) also suggests this, btw.

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bk1
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bk1 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:42 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Have you looked at the 2009 employment mega thread on this site?

27% of Hastings grads made more than $90,000; Hastings had less than 5% of its class in part time work
15% of Davis grads made more than $90,000; Davis had more than 20% of its class in part time work

If there is any doubt in your mind as to which school you should pick after seeing these statistics, maybe law school is not for you.


I'm assuming you mean this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

5% versus 20% comes from the salary charts, but if you look at the FT/PT/Employed charts you get:

Davis - 20% Part Time, 5% Unemployed, 8% Unknown
Hastings - 18% Part Time, 12% Unemployed, 3% Unknown

Assuming that the latter is correct (and I'd hazard a guess that the 5% is an erroneous figure considering it doesn't line up with the other schools at all), these seem pretty damn comparable to me. It looks like the unemployed are just more willing to admit it at Hastings.

There is a decent discussion regarding UCH/UCD in that thread and even Hastings students seem to admit that Davis is about the same. Thus I again reiterate, Davis and Hastings are peers.

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alexonfyre
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby alexonfyre » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:22 pm

bk1 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Have you looked at the 2009 employment mega thread on this site?

27% of Hastings grads made more than $90,000; Hastings had less than 5% of its class in part time work
15% of Davis grads made more than $90,000; Davis had more than 20% of its class in part time work

If there is any doubt in your mind as to which school you should pick after seeing these statistics, maybe law school is not for you.


I'm assuming you mean this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

5% versus 20% comes from the salary charts, but if you look at the FT/PT/Employed charts you get:

Davis - 20% Part Time, 5% Unemployed, 8% Unknown
Hastings - 18% Part Time, 12% Unemployed, 3% Unknown

Assuming that the latter is correct (and I'd hazard a guess that the 5% is an erroneous figure considering it doesn't line up with the other schools at all), these seem pretty damn comparable to me. It looks like the unemployed are just more willing to admit it at Hastings.

There is a decent discussion regarding UCH/UCD in that thread and even Hastings students seem to admit that Davis is about the same. Thus I again reiterate, Davis and Hastings are peers.


This is probably correct, however, it is easier to get a good GPA in boring Davis (don't drink the admissions kool-aid, davis is desolate) than downtown San Fran :mrgreen:
The other thing is that Davis is going on and on about their great new facility...it doesn't look all that great...it looks about par for the course for a T1 law school, I dunno what that is all about.

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bk1
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bk1 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:26 pm

alexonfyre wrote:This is probably correct, however, it is easier to get a good GPA in boring Davis (don't drink the admissions kool-aid, davis is desolate) than downtown San Fran :mrgreen:
The other thing is that Davis is going on and on about their great new facility...it doesn't look all that great...it looks about par for the course for a T1 law school, I dunno what that is all about.


I still have my "Keep Davis Boring" bumper sticker. :)

Davis is a college town that isn't super happening but I wouldn't qualify it as desolate or really that boring. If you are used to living in a large city your whole life then it is different but if you've spent time in the suburbs it is pretty much the same. You can easily go to Sacramento (30 minute drive) or even all the way to SF (1 hour drive) if you want to so if you want to see a show or a sports game or go to a club there are definitely options. Davis itself is a nice place to hang out with friends at a bar or get some pizza/burgers.

I haven't seen the new law building so I can't really comment on that.

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Lasers
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby Lasers » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:47 pm

bk1 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Have you looked at the 2009 employment mega thread on this site?

27% of Hastings grads made more than $90,000; Hastings had less than 5% of its class in part time work
15% of Davis grads made more than $90,000; Davis had more than 20% of its class in part time work

If there is any doubt in your mind as to which school you should pick after seeing these statistics, maybe law school is not for you.


I'm assuming you mean this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

5% versus 20% comes from the salary charts, but if you look at the FT/PT/Employed charts you get:

Davis - 20% Part Time, 5% Unemployed, 8% Unknown
Hastings - 18% Part Time, 12% Unemployed, 3% Unknown

Assuming that the latter is correct (and I'd hazard a guess that the 5% is an erroneous figure considering it doesn't line up with the other schools at all), these seem pretty damn comparable to me. It looks like the unemployed are just more willing to admit it at Hastings.

There is a decent discussion regarding UCH/UCD in that thread and even Hastings students seem to admit that Davis is about the same. Thus I again reiterate, Davis and Hastings are peers.

the employment numbers in that sense are very comparable, but as stated above, more hastings grads are making more money than davis grads.

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alexonfyre
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby alexonfyre » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:49 pm

bk1 wrote:
alexonfyre wrote:This is probably correct, however, it is easier to get a good GPA in boring Davis (don't drink the admissions kool-aid, davis is desolate) than downtown San Fran :mrgreen:
The other thing is that Davis is going on and on about their great new facility...it doesn't look all that great...it looks about par for the course for a T1 law school, I dunno what that is all about.


I still have my "Keep Davis Boring" bumper sticker. :)

Davis is a college town that isn't super happening but I wouldn't qualify it as desolate or really that boring. If you are used to living in a large city your whole life then it is different but if you've spent time in the suburbs it is pretty much the same. You can easily go to Sacramento (30 minute drive) or even all the way to SF (1 hour drive) if you want to so if you want to see a show or a sports game or go to a club there are definitely options. Davis itself is a nice place to hang out with friends at a bar or get some pizza/burgers.

I haven't seen the new law building so I can't really comment on that.


Just go anywhere on their website. They have a video, testimonials, the building has its own damn website. I think it is even called building.law.ucdavis.edu
I wouldn't be surprised if they start offering a New Building Law concentration.
Not even lying, they are all about some building at UCD.

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bk1
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bk1 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:57 pm

Lasers wrote:the employment numbers in that sense are very comparable, but as stated above, more hastings grads are making more money than davis grads.


If you look at the NLJ250 numbers for that year you see that 16.7% of Davis gets it and 16.2% of Hastings gets it.

What is important is the Davis number because when you pair it with that chart, it doesn't make sense considering it estimates that roughly 10% of Davis grads make between 160k and 90k.

I find it hard to believe that Hastings grads are actually doing better or worse than Davis grads.

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Lasers
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby Lasers » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:22 pm

bk1 wrote:
Lasers wrote:the employment numbers in that sense are very comparable, but as stated above, more hastings grads are making more money than davis grads.


If you look at the NLJ250 numbers for that year you see that 16.7% of Davis gets it and 16.2% of Hastings gets it.

What is important is the Davis number because when you pair it with that chart, it doesn't make sense considering it estimates that roughly 10% of Davis grads make between 160k and 90k.

I find it hard to believe that Hastings grads are actually doing better or worse than Davis grads.

not sure if i'm missing something, but according to the salary chart, 15% of davis grads last year made $160,000-90,000, which largely accounts for the 16.7% that got nlj250 jobs. the large unknown/unreported percentage from davis may account for the disparity between those two statistics as well.

on the other hand, hastings had 27% make $160-90k, with a higher median, as well.

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bk1
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bk1 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:25 pm

Lasers wrote:not sure if i'm missing something, but according to the salary chart, 15% of davis grads last year made $160,000-90,000, which largely accounts for the 16.7% that got nlj250 jobs. the large unknown/unreported percentage from davis may account for the disparity between those two statistics as well.


Yes I believe that the assumption was that Davis (for whatever reason) was just awful at getting salary info from their grads compared to Hastings even though the employment prospects were comparable.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:29 pm

bk1 wrote:
Lasers wrote:not sure if i'm missing something, but according to the salary chart, 15% of davis grads last year made $160,000-90,000, which largely accounts for the 16.7% that got nlj250 jobs. the large unknown/unreported percentage from davis may account for the disparity between those two statistics as well.


Yes I believe that the assumption was that Davis (for whatever reason) was just awful at getting salary info from their grads compared to Hastings even though the employment prospects were comparable.


That's possible. I have no foot in this race. But I will say that if all things are equal between two schools, attending the one in a metropolitan area is always the better option (even at a slightly higher COA).

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bk1
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bk1 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:31 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:That's possible. I have no foot in this race. But I will say that if all things are equal between two schools, attending the one in a metropolitan area is always the better option (even at a slightly higher COA).


Davis is about an hour away from SF. I don't think being in SF makes a difference here and I think the fact that Davis costs less than half of SF more than slight.

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Lasers
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby Lasers » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:31 pm

bk1 wrote:
Lasers wrote:not sure if i'm missing something, but according to the salary chart, 15% of davis grads last year made $160,000-90,000, which largely accounts for the 16.7% that got nlj250 jobs. the large unknown/unreported percentage from davis may account for the disparity between those two statistics as well.


Yes I believe that the assumption was that Davis (for whatever reason) was just awful at getting salary info from their grads compared to Hastings even though the employment prospects were comparable.

even if accounting for davis' poor job at collecting data, i doubt it would make the schools comparable in this aspect, seeing as there is a pretty significant difference (12%) between hastings and davis grads who made $90,000 or more.

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drdolittle
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby drdolittle » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:34 pm

bk1 wrote:
Lasers wrote:not sure if i'm missing something, but according to the salary chart, 15% of davis grads last year made $160,000-90,000, which largely accounts for the 16.7% that got nlj250 jobs. the large unknown/unreported percentage from davis may account for the disparity between those two statistics as well.


Yes I believe that the assumption was that Davis (for whatever reason) was just awful at getting salary info from their grads compared to Hastings even though the employment prospects were comparable.

I don't see why one would just assume this about salary info, especially considering Davis' phenomenally high employment at graduation stat in US News. I'd assume the opposite, if I had to assume anything. But a fairer assumption is that employment stats are suspect in general, arguably more so for Davis though considering it claims to have relatively more grads employed at graduation than Stanford. Another reasonable conclusion from this stat is that Davis interprets and reports its employment stats generously.

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bk1
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bk1 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:57 pm

Lasers wrote:even if accounting for davis' poor job at collecting data, i doubt the statistics would make the schools comparable in this aspect, seeing as there is a pretty significant difference (12%) between hastings and davis grads who made $90,000 or more.



Looking at the employment type breakdown the schools are very similar. About the only difference is that Davis has slightly more PI.

For whatever reason, Davis kids don't report as much info compared to Hastings grads. While I would like to assume this is because they are unemployed/underemployed and that is generally the case, I find it hard to look at the data as a whole and come to the conclusion that Hastings will give you a better chance at a higher salary.

Hastings grads have the highest percentage of being unemployed so maybe they are just more honest? What I think is more likely the case is that due to UCD's small class size makes it easier for randomness of how many people report info to have a larger factor on the employment stats than it does at a school like UCH that has a large class size. But that's just a hypothesis.

If somebody thinks UCH is definitively better due to the stats I can see for a case for that but I think the data as a whole doesn't really speak to that.

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bk1
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby bk1 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:00 pm

drdolittle wrote:I don't see why one would just assume this about salary info, especially considering Davis' phenomenally high employment at graduation stat in US News. I'd assume the opposite, if I had to assume anything. But a fairer assumption is that employment stats are suspect in general, arguably more so for Davis though considering it claims to have relatively more grads employed at graduation than Stanford. Another reasonable conclusion from this stat is that Davis interprets and reports its employment stats generously.


Yes I agree that all employment info is suspect and Davis really bullshitted that 98% employment or whatever they said they had. But look at the 2009 data, the percentage of grads who are extremely underemployed (aka part time), unemployed, and unknown at Davis and Hastings both equal the same percentage.

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Lasers
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Re: UC Hastings

Postby Lasers » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:09 pm

bk1 wrote:
Lasers wrote:even if accounting for davis' poor job at collecting data, i doubt the statistics would make the schools comparable in this aspect, seeing as there is a pretty significant difference (12%) between hastings and davis grads who made $90,000 or more.



Looking at the employment type breakdown the schools are very similar. About the only difference is that Davis has slightly more PI.

For whatever reason, Davis kids don't report as much info compared to Hastings grads. While I would like to assume this is because they are unemployed/underemployed and that is generally the case, I find it hard to look at the data as a whole and come to the conclusion that Hastings will give you a better chance at a higher salary.

Hastings grads have the highest percentage of being unemployed so maybe they are just more honest? What I think is more likely the case is that due to UCD's small class size makes it easier for randomness of how many people report info to have a larger factor on the employment stats than it does at a school like UCH that has a large class size. But that's just a hypothesis.

If somebody thinks UCH is definitively better due to the stats I can see for a case for that but I think the data as a whole doesn't really speak to that.

i agree with you in just about all respects. they are probably largely the same in almost all aspects of employment, and no school can be deemed definitively better at anything from these stats.

still, the 12% discrepancy between the schools as stated above may be too big a percentage to try and account for. that's about all i'll say about that.




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