Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

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tipler4213
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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby tipler4213 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:52 am

zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?


Interesting threat. What about going trhough DoJ, CIA, DHS Honors programs as a means to this end?

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Patriot1208
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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:15 am

zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?

For an agent position or cia nco? No.

ETA as far as the W/E goes, it depends on what you did. These places (i'm not including the state department because I don't have experience with them) care about only a few things, your work experience, foreign language, diversity (I know extremely unqualified women to be hired simply because they need more women), and their testing. Everything else is pretty much "softs" in law school admissions. They don't really care.

At the CIA, unless you have a foreign language that is in need, you can cross that right off your list. For the federal law enforcement agencies the easiest way to get in is to have law enforcement experience. The NYPD detective always has a leg up on the law school grad unless that law school grad has other significant work experience (like a Manhatten prosecutor). And even then, the detective usually wins out. I'd wajor 80% of agents have prior law enforcement or military experience.
Last edited by Patriot1208 on Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:17 am

tipler4213 wrote:
zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?


Interesting threat. What about going trhough DoJ, CIA, DHS Honors programs as a means to this end?

That is certainly a possibility but you realize getting doj honors is extremely tough, right? You'd be giving up a much more lucrative career for what?

tipler4213
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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby tipler4213 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:00 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
tipler4213 wrote:
zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?


Interesting threat. What about going trhough DoJ, CIA, DHS Honors programs as a means to this end?

That is certainly a possibility but you realize getting doj honors is extremely tough, right? You'd be giving up a much more lucrative career for what?


Indeed. Just asked for curiosity's sake. Also to tagg the thread. But, the secret agent appeal plays a role...Just like Bond, ya know.

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zreinhar
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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby zreinhar » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:03 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
tipler4213 wrote:
zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?


Interesting threat. What about going trhough DoJ, CIA, DHS Honors programs as a means to this end?

That is certainly a possibility but you realize getting doj honors is extremely tough, right? You'd be giving up a much more lucrative career for what?


I basically know nothing about those (DoJ, CIA, DHS Honors, etc.) or the programs they typically use to hire JDs. My Eng. exp is DoD contract research and corporate energy stuff, along with currently being at the PTO. I know they have engnineering positions (weapons techs) but that obviously wouldn't require or likely even want a JD. Mainly just curious if a background like that would be of any help in differentiating myself from the pack, although I see prior investigative experience really trumps all here.

And obivously the only reason I'm considering it is to appease the inner desire to be a part of an elite counter terrorism unit bustin caps on fools. 8)

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Patriot1208
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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:09 am

tipler4213 wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
tipler4213 wrote:
zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?


Interesting threat. What about going trhough DoJ, CIA, DHS Honors programs as a means to this end?

That is certainly a possibility but you realize getting doj honors is extremely tough, right? You'd be giving up a much more lucrative career for what?


Indeed. Just asked for curiosity's sake. Also to tagg the thread. But, the secret agent appeal plays a role...Just like Bond, ya know.

I know a few lawyers who are at federal law enforcement agencies. Actually, I know one guy who just left a biglaw firm for the DEA. Being an agent isn't all that exciting. The big cases are made by sitting in a wire room for 12 hours a day listening to tape. Most agents will never draw or fire their weapons and many won't even go on raids. You'll get more excitement at the DEA or ATF than you will at the FBI. The most excitement there probably is in federal law enforcement is the Marshalls if you can work specifically with teh fugitive teams. Because then you don't really have the paperwork or boring investigative work. But even then most marshalls don't do fugitive work and instead transfer prisoners and guard judges. So even if you got into the marshalls that would be the luck of the draw. Generally, I don't think being an agent is any more exciting than being an AUSA. It's a little less routine, but not necessarily more exciting. And everyone I know in law enforcement keeps telling me to go to law school lol. CIA NCO is different and more exciting, but exponentially more difficult to get into.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:12 am

zreinhar wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
tipler4213 wrote:
zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?


Interesting threat. What about going trhough DoJ, CIA, DHS Honors programs as a means to this end?

That is certainly a possibility but you realize getting doj honors is extremely tough, right? You'd be giving up a much more lucrative career for what?


I basically know nothing about those (DoJ, CIA, DHS Honors, etc.) or the programs they typically use to hire JDs. My Eng. exp is DoD contract research and corporate energy stuff, along with currently being at the PTO. I know they have engnineering positions (weapons techs) but that obviously wouldn't require or likely even want a JD. Mainly just curious if a background like that would be of any help in differentiating myself from the pack, although I see prior investigative experience really trumps all here.

And obivously the only reason I'm considering it is to appease the inner desire to be a part of an elite counter terrorism unit bustin caps on fools. 8)


Do you have a TS? That will certainly help get you an interview. Your engineering is unlikely to help to much, though, as far as an agent positon. Engineering positions are certainly a different story, but I was limiting it to the agent positon. The honors programs for JD's basically require top third of your class, good in the interview, and that you have shown prior interest in working for the government. But, like I said in the last post, it's not the excitement people think it is.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby math101 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:38 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?

For an agent position or cia nco? No.

ETA as far as the W/E goes, it depends on what you did. These places (i'm not including the state department because I don't have experience with them) care about only a few things, your work experience, foreign language, diversity (I know extremely unqualified women to be hired simply because they need more women), and their testing. Everything else is pretty much "softs" in law school admissions. They don't really care.

At the CIA, unless you have a foreign language that is in need, you can cross that right off your list. For the federal law enforcement agencies the easiest way to get in is to have law enforcement experience. The NYPD detective always has a leg up on the law school grad unless that law school grad has other significant work experience (like a Manhatten prosecutor). And even then, the detective usually wins out. I'd wajor 80% of agents have prior law enforcement or military experience.


Interesting. So, if I (female, master's degree in Linguistics, fluent in Russian) were interested in any of the above positions, would I have a shot with an MVP law degree?

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:43 am

math101 wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
zreinhar wrote:Also kind of interested in this. Would having an engineering undergrad help in any way? I also have some odd work experience if I were to pursue that (more than two years by the time I would finish law school) Think that would separate me in any way?

For an agent position or cia nco? No.

ETA as far as the W/E goes, it depends on what you did. These places (i'm not including the state department because I don't have experience with them) care about only a few things, your work experience, foreign language, diversity (I know extremely unqualified women to be hired simply because they need more women), and their testing. Everything else is pretty much "softs" in law school admissions. They don't really care.

At the CIA, unless you have a foreign language that is in need, you can cross that right off your list. For the federal law enforcement agencies the easiest way to get in is to have law enforcement experience. The NYPD detective always has a leg up on the law school grad unless that law school grad has other significant work experience (like a Manhatten prosecutor). And even then, the detective usually wins out. I'd wajor 80% of agents have prior law enforcement or military experience.


Interesting. So, if I (female, master's degree in Linguistics, fluent in Russian) were interested in any of the above positions, would I have a shot with an MVP law degree?


Certainly you would. But the law degree is not needed. If you have some work experience apply now. Doing something foreign affairs related or law enforcement related for the next 2-3 years will get you better looks than a JD will.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby zreinhar » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:45 am

Do you have a TS? That will certainly help get you an interview. Your engineering is unlikely to help to much, though, as far as an agent positon. Engineering positions are certainly a different story, but I was limiting it to the agent positon. The honors programs for JD's basically require top third of your class, good in the interview, and that you have shown prior interest in working for the government. But, like I said in the last post, it's not the excitement people think it is.


Didn't get to the TS, had S while doing a lot of the research during undergrad, was going to start for TS, but got another job before that situation was started.

Not too interested in it for the bullets and raids, just curious if my different background might give me a leg up. I'm sure at the end I'll just end up writing patents :) But thanks for the info

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby thedude6512 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:19 pm

fatduck wrote:it is extremely difficult and your law degree will not really help.


Patriot1208 wrote:For the federal law enforcement agencies the easiest way to get in is to have law enforcement experience. The NYPD detective always has a leg up on the law school grad unless that law school grad has other significant work experience (like a Manhatten prosecutor). And even then, the detective usually wins out. I'd wajor 80% of agents have prior law enforcement or military experience.


First of all, the easiest way to get employment in the FBI is proficiency in critical defense languages. If you speak Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, etc. and meet the other minimum qualifications for employment, you will certainly get into the hiring process.

Furthermore, you guys are acting like a JD is worthless in the FBI hiring process. The NYPD detective does not "always have a leg up on the law school grad." While a lot of FBI agents do have law enforcement or military experience, the majority of new hires do not. There are five special agent entry programs into the FBI: accounting, computer science, language, law, and diversified. Law enforcement experience falls under diversified, which also offers the fewest spots for new hires.

Having a law degree can definitely get your foot in the door, assuming one has good academic credentials and solid work experience, as well. Two years of any kind of full-time legal experience can qualify an applicant under the law entry program. There are plenty of other legal jobs, such as judicial clerk, JAG, or prosecutor, that would put an attorney ahead of many other FBI applicants.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:32 pm

thedude6512 wrote:
fatduck wrote:it is extremely difficult and your law degree will not really help.


Patriot1208 wrote:For the federal law enforcement agencies the easiest way to get in is to have law enforcement experience. The NYPD detective always has a leg up on the law school grad unless that law school grad has other significant work experience (like a Manhatten prosecutor). And even then, the detective usually wins out. I'd wajor 80% of agents have prior law enforcement or military experience.


First of all, the easiest way to get employment in the FBI is proficiency in critical defense languages. If you speak Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, etc. and meet the other minimum qualifications for employment, you will certainly get into the hiring process.

Furthermore, you guys are acting like a JD is worthless in the FBI hiring process. The NYPD detective does not "always have a leg up on the law school grad." While a lot of FBI agents do have law enforcement or military experience, the majority of new hires do not. There are five special agent entry programs into the FBI: accounting, computer science, language, law, and diversified. Law enforcement experience falls under diversified, which also offers the fewest spots for new hires.

Having a law degree can definitely get your foot in the door, assuming one has good academic credentials and solid work experience, as well. Two years of any kind of full-time legal experience can qualify an applicant under the law entry program. There are plenty of other legal jobs, such as judicial clerk, JAG, or prosecutor, that would put an attorney ahead of many other FBI applicants.


You are right that I should have included certain languages in "easiest" way to get in, but I was assuming for those that don't know arabic. But the rest of this post is wrong, sorry. I don't care what a recruiter told you, I have first hand experience in the matter across several agencies and can tell you with 100% certainty everything I wrote is 100% correct.

Actually, I just want to pull this quote out for the complete absurdity of your post that tells me you have never even talked to an FBI agent, let alone have any relevant knowledge to contribute to this conversation.

While a lot of FBI agents do have law enforcement or military experience, the majority of new hires do not.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby thedude6512 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:40 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:Actually, I just want to pull this quote out for the complete absurdity of your post that tells me you have never even talked to an FBI agent, let alone have any relevant knowledge to contribute to this conversation.


Why is it that everyone on this site wants to turn discussions into arguments? I made a statement based on my knowledge, and rather than try to answer it, you sling mud. Anonymity should not give somebody complete license to be a snide asshole. Though I suppose it does.

I have talked to FBI agents, specifically two recruiters and two personal acquaintances. Of the two recruiters, one was a previous attorney, and the other was an accountant. Of the two acquaintances, one was a chemist and the other was in the Marine Corps. I specifically asked the recruiters where a law degree would put me in terms of hiring, and they said that although the process was very competitive, it would give me a shot. Moreover, I have perused the FBI website to get an idea of what they're looking for, and it seems that many of the hires are attorneys.

If you have heard differently, I would like to know more.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:57 pm

thedude6512 wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:Actually, I just want to pull this quote out for the complete absurdity of your post that tells me you have never even talked to an FBI agent, let alone have any relevant knowledge to contribute to this conversation.


Why is it that everyone on this site wants to turn discussions into arguments? I made a statement based on my knowledge, and rather than try to answer it, you sling mud. Anonymity should not give somebody complete license to be a snide asshole. Though I suppose it does.

I have talked to FBI agents, specifically two recruiters and two personal acquaintances. Of the two recruiters, one was a previous attorney, and the other was an accountant. Of the two acquaintances, one was a chemist and the other was in the Marine Corps. I specifically asked the recruiters where a law degree would put me in terms of hiring, and they said that although the process was very competitive, it would give me a shot. Moreover, I have perused the FBI website to get an idea of what they're looking for, and it seems that many of the hires are attorneys.

If you have heard differently, I would like to know more.


You want to know why I was snide yet you used two recruiters as your basis for an argument, you started, by saying I was wrong? I haven't heard differently, I know differently from working for multiple DOJ agencies. There are people in the FBI of many different backgrounds. But 50,000 applications per class (50 jobs) is about the level of what they are getting right now. I know a couple of accountants too, lawyers, computer scientists, etc. They exist, there is no doubt. But the are in the VAST VAST minority and almost always lose out to the NYPD detective in the hiring process unless there is a specific need at that time. For instance after 9/11 about 75% of the workforce got shifted to Counterterroism and the FBI got very understaffed in white collar crimes. Because of this they went on a hiring spree that was specificall targeting law enforcement that had previous exposure to financial crimes like IRS agents or white collar divisions of state police and accountants. But in a normal class, many of those people would have missed the cut. And there is never going to be this type of specific need for those with JD because a JD brings absolutely no benefit to the job.

Listen, recruiters lie. They lie their asses off. The FBI spends millions of dollars a year in PR campaigns, much of which is to give them an image to the general public that isn't actual accurate. Recruiters are part of this, they go to schools, talk to kids, and put on programs that are all geared towards showing you how diversified the FBI is. But, it's not, it's just what they want to show you. It's also worthwhile to note that the recruiters usually got put in that position because the fucked up and are on probation. The recruiter I know most closely raided the wrong house, three times, in one day. The next week he was reassigned to division recruiter.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby TheStrand » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:29 pm

Forgot to mention this before, but those of you who are interested in working for the FBI/CIA etc, you should also look into working as a Special Agent with HHS. The work is really interesting, you can still go on raids, and they recently have had a lot of interesting Medicare fraud cases against the mafia/gangs. I don't know anything about their hiring, but I'm guessing it's probably less competitive getting HHS OIG than getting FBI.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby alexonfyre » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:30 pm

Fwiw, All of my friends that went intelligence/enforcement were courted through UG and hired in after years of interning or under the table semester work. They told me that without that they wouldn't have had a shot unless they went into the police force, which corroborates Patriot's posts to me. Hardly damning proof there, but some more circumstantial hearsay to add to the heap.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:07 am

Apparently the FBI values lawyers but they want you to have some work experience. No offense to the TLS experts but this is a quote from an actual FBI Agent talking to BYU law students.

FBI Special Agent Trent Pedersen(‘95) addressed first-year law students Friday, January 28, admonishing them to find a career they love.

“It you don’t like your job, it doesn’t matter where you live or how much you make,” Pedersen said. “Find something you like.”

Pedersen shared with students his journey to finding a career he loves. He said he enjoyed working as a county prosecutor, but the salary wasn’t realistic for him and his family. He also worked as a litigator at a law firm but found 90 percent of the time he was processing paperwork. He wanted to be in the action. So when the FBI contacted him, asking him if he would be interested, he applied. He accepted a position in 1997 and has been there ever since.

“I first did it for excitement,” Pedersen remembered. “Now I do it to help people. When you return a child or stop terrorist attacks, it is very fulfilling.”

Pedersen said law school graduates are sought after in the FBI.

“They expect you to be able to think and that’s why lawyers make such good FBI agents,” Pedersen explained.

Pedersen suggested students interested in a career in the FBI work for a few years after graduation, brush up their language skills (if they speak another language) and then apply.


http://www.law2.byu.edu/news/item.php?num=1405

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alexonfyre
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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby alexonfyre » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:42 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:Apparently the FBI values lawyers but they want you to have some work experience. No offense to the TLS experts but this is a quote from an actual FBI Agent talking to BYU law students.

FBI Special Agent Trent Pedersen(‘95) addressed first-year law students Friday, January 28, admonishing them to find a career they love.

“It you don’t like your job, it doesn’t matter where you live or how much you make,” Pedersen said. “Find something you like.”

Pedersen shared with students his journey to finding a career he loves. He said he enjoyed working as a county prosecutor, but the salary wasn’t realistic for him and his family. He also worked as a litigator at a law firm but found 90 percent of the time he was processing paperwork. He wanted to be in the action. So when the FBI contacted him, asking him if he would be interested, he applied. He accepted a position in 1997 and has been there ever since.

“I first did it for excitement,” Pedersen remembered. “Now I do it to help people. When you return a child or stop terrorist attacks, it is very fulfilling.”

Pedersen said law school graduates are sought after in the FBI.

“They expect you to be able to think and that’s why lawyers make such good FBI agents,” Pedersen explained.

Pedersen suggested students interested in a career in the FBI work for a few years after graduation, brush up their language skills (if they speak another language) and then apply.


http://www.law2.byu.edu/news/item.php?num=1405


This also fits with Patriot's claims. To wit, I have read some books on law enforcement on both the prosecutorial side and the enforcement side and both reference people who "cross over" (start in one and transfer to the other, either directly or after going back to school.) Both professions do very similar work (and work very closely) so the skills are highly transferable. The point to OP is that there are easier and cheaper ways to get into the FBI without going to law school, unless you can get a full-ride to somewhere decent that can place you in a DA's offices for a while.

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Re: Law degree -> Diplomat?FBI Special Agent?Operations Officer?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:24 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:Apparently the FBI values lawyers but they want you to have some work experience. No offense to the TLS experts but this is a quote from an actual FBI Agent talking to BYU law students.

FBI Special Agent Trent Pedersen(‘95) addressed first-year law students Friday, January 28, admonishing them to find a career they love.

“It you don’t like your job, it doesn’t matter where you live or how much you make,” Pedersen said. “Find something you like.”

Pedersen shared with students his journey to finding a career he loves. He said he enjoyed working as a county prosecutor, but the salary wasn’t realistic for him and his family. He also worked as a litigator at a law firm but found 90 percent of the time he was processing paperwork. He wanted to be in the action. So when the FBI contacted him, asking him if he would be interested, he applied. He accepted a position in 1997 and has been there ever since.

“I first did it for excitement,” Pedersen remembered. “Now I do it to help people. When you return a child or stop terrorist attacks, it is very fulfilling.”

Pedersen said law school graduates are sought after in the FBI.

“They expect you to be able to think and that’s why lawyers make such good FBI agents,” Pedersen explained.

Pedersen suggested students interested in a career in the FBI work for a few years after graduation, brush up their language skills (if they speak another language) and then apply.


http://www.law2.byu.edu/news/item.php?num=1405


Like I said before, there are certainly a decent number of lawyers in the FBI, but the law degree does not give you a leg up. You'll spend three years and 100+k when you'd be in a better position after if you had spent that time becoming an nypd detective. I never said lawyers won't get hird, just tht there were better avenues. I personally know someone who just left biglaw to become an agent, but he had biglaw work eperience. I also know someone from a t14 who has applied multiple times and never even gotten an interview. Listen, if people choose not to believe me because of what some recruiter says, that is fine. I'm simply sharing my first hand knowledge as someone who has worked for multiple DOJ agencies. The problem is that we see people getting jd's at sticker from places like syracuse and thinking it will get them a job. I'm sure you can find more quotes from recruiters but i'm telling you the reality of what i've seen. It's the same thing with law school deans who tell you how much your fraternity leadership position mattered.

And as far as your tls expert comment, i'm fairly certain that i'm he only regular poster on tls who has worked in federal law enorcement agencies and that work experience makes me fairly qualified.




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