0L prep correlation to 1L grades

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)

What preparation did you undertake during your 0L summer and what was your class rank in 1L?

No Prep - Top 20% of my class
38
42%
No Prep - Top 20-50% of my class
13
14%
No Prep - Below median
1
1%
Exam Prep - Top 20% of my class
15
17%
Exam Prep - Top 20-50% of my class
2
2%
Exam Prep - Below median
0
No votes
Exam + Substantive Prep - Top 20% of my class
13
14%
Exam + Substantive Prep - Top 20-50% of my class
1
1%
Exam + Substantive Prep - Below median
7
8%
 
Total votes: 90

MCRemix
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0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby MCRemix » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:10 pm

I've seen the issue of 0L summer prep bantered back and forth, but I don’t think I've ever seen a poll on the subject of 0L summer prep correlated to 1L results. I think it would be interesting to see how 1L results back up the assertions of each side. So 2Ls, 3Ls and beyond, what say you?

For the purpose of this poll:
No Prep = No or minimal preparation (looking over resources, but not actually studying)
Exam Prep = Prepared using GTM, LEEWS, etc.
Substantive Prep = E&Es, Hornbooks, etc.

Obviously I left out the category of solely substantive prep. In part this is due to limits of the poll system, but also because the general consensus of the boards and prelaw books is that substantive prep alone won't make any significant difference in your success.

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typ3
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby typ3 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:59 pm

MCRemix wrote:I've seen the issue of 0L summer prep bantered back and forth, but I don’t think I've ever seen a poll on the subject of 0L summer prep correlated to 1L results. I think it would be interesting to see how 1L results back up the assertions of each side. So 2Ls, 3Ls and beyond, what say you?

For the purpose of this poll:
No Prep = No or minimal preparation (looking over resources, but not actually studying)
Exam Prep = Prepared using GTM, LEEWS, etc.
Substantive Prep = E&Es, Hornbooks, etc.

Obviously I left out the category of solely substantive prep. In part this is due to limits of the poll system, but also because the general consensus of the boards and prelaw books is that substantive prep alone won't make any significant difference in your success.


Too many categories. Get rid of substantive prep. Prep or no prep settles the debate, no need for these grey area distinctions.

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txadv11
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby txadv11 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:15 am

Tagged, I'm interested to see answers on this.

dakatz
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby dakatz » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:21 am

This poll is very flawed. I did prep and did very well first semester. But how do I convey that the prep had absolutely nothing to do with it? To all the 0Ls out there, substantive prep is a waste of time.

adude
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby adude » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:31 am

excellent idea for a poll. although I did not do 0L prep and did pretty well, I can't imagine it would hurt to get a head start. If I had done substantive prep, I would have focused on only one area - probably something easier to understand, like torts or crim law. Substantive prep makes exam prep better, since it gives you something to write about and practice with.

MCRemix
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby MCRemix » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:18 am

typ3 wrote:Too many categories. Get rid of substantive prep. Prep or no prep settles the debate, no need for these grey area distinctions.

Fair enough, perhaps I'll recreate later to see how that would be different or clearer. For the time being, lets see how it plays out.

dakatz wrote:This poll is very flawed. I did prep and did very well first semester. But how do I convey that the prep had absolutely nothing to do with it? To all the 0Ls out there, substantive prep is a waste of time.

Agreed, solely substantive prep is a waste, thats why I left it out. BTW, how do you know that your prep had nothing to do with your success? (Not arguing, just curious)

dakatz
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby dakatz » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:26 am

MCRemix wrote:
typ3 wrote:Too many categories. Get rid of substantive prep. Prep or no prep settles the debate, no need for these grey area distinctions.

Fair enough, perhaps I'll recreate later to see how that would be different or clearer. For the time being, lets see how it plays out.

dakatz wrote:This poll is very flawed. I did prep and did very well first semester. But how do I convey that the prep had absolutely nothing to do with it? To all the 0Ls out there, substantive prep is a waste of time.

Agreed, solely substantive prep is a waste, thats why I left it out. BTW, how do you know that your prep had nothing to do with your success? (Not arguing, just curious)


Its sort of difficult to explain how I know it had nothing to do with it, but I'll give it my best shot.

The only thing that matters in law school is the exam at the end of the semester. Lets say you do substantive prep before school. Sure, on the first few days, you have a feel for what the teacher is saying and you have an idea where the class is going (assuming that the professor teaches the material in the same way it is presented in a supplement, which is another overarching problem with 0L prep). However, your classmates will soon catch up to you and negate any advantage you may have had. And come exam time, the playing field has completely evened itself out. Thus, whatever time and effort you put into the prep yields no advantage over your classmates in the end. It would be almost imaginable to gain an advantage coming in and be able to secure and maintain that advantage throughout. Its just the nature of the game that it will all even out as everyone is exposed to the material.

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Lawquacious
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:13 am

I posted estimated range, but technically we don't get ranked percentage-wise until after full year, so my response isn't necessarily accurate. I wonder how much of a bias there is for people who did well (i.e. top 20%) to be more inclined to answer v. those who didn't do as well... I suspect it may be considerable judging by the answers so far (though perhaps TLS contains an over-representation of the best law students within each school).

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typ3
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby typ3 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:14 am

dakatz wrote:
The only thing that matters in law school is the exam at the end of the semester. Lets say you do substantive prep before school. Sure, on the first few days, you have a feel for what the teacher is saying and you have an idea where the class is going (assuming that the professor teaches the material in the same way it is presented in a supplement, which is another overarching problem with 0L prep). However, your classmates will soon catch up to you and negate any advantage you may have had. And come exam time, the playing field has completely evened itself out. Thus, whatever time and effort you put into the prep yields no advantage over your classmates in the end. It would be almost imaginable to gain an advantage coming in and be able to secure and maintain that advantage throughout. Its just the nature of the game that it will all even out as everyone is exposed to the material.


I don't entirely agree. The field evens itself out pretty well come exam time, but it is not entirely even.
Regardless, if you know a bit coming in and have a background in some of the material you free up time and energy during the semester to learn other things or give yourself a slight break. It's not like you can do 0L prep and be insta top 20%, however, 0L prep can make the first semester more manageable so that you can spend more time doing practice exams rather than having to learn the law.

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typ3
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby typ3 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:16 am

Lawquacious wrote:I posted estimated range, but technically we don't get ranked percentage-wise until after full year, so my response isn't necessarily accurate. I wonder how much of a bias there is for people who did well (i.e. top 20%) to be more inclined to answer v. those who didn't do as well... I suspect it may be considerable judging by the answers so far (though perhaps TLS contains an over-representation of the best law students within each school).


TLS is over-representative of the best students imo.

adude
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby adude » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:38 am

note also that students who do 0L prep are probably more likely to score higher simply because they are proactive and dedicated to doing well. in other words, there may be a correlation between working hard in general and doing 0L prep. being a hard worker will lead to better grades regardless of what you did over the summer

09042014
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:44 am

Doing 0L prep for my Civ Pro or Torts would be at best useless, and at worse harmful because the professors had very unique views.

I don't think October prep is useful, let alone June.

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Adjudicator
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby Adjudicator » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:52 am

This poll sucks. There should be two options, "0L prep helped" and "0L prep didn't help."

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TTH
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby TTH » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:22 am

Desert Fox wrote:Doing 0L prep for my Civ Pro or Torts would be at best useless, and at worse harmful because the professors had very unique views.

I don't think October prep is useful, let alone June.


True words.

Nothing is more useless than 0L Prep. If you're going to do ANYTHING, read GTM, but even then, wait until October to read GTM.

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txadv11
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby txadv11 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:25 am

Ok, I think I'll stick with 1L of a Ride and GTM. Still debating the LEEWS CDs.

dakatz
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby dakatz » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:28 am

typ3 wrote:
dakatz wrote:
The only thing that matters in law school is the exam at the end of the semester. Lets say you do substantive prep before school. Sure, on the first few days, you have a feel for what the teacher is saying and you have an idea where the class is going (assuming that the professor teaches the material in the same way it is presented in a supplement, which is another overarching problem with 0L prep). However, your classmates will soon catch up to you and negate any advantage you may have had. And come exam time, the playing field has completely evened itself out. Thus, whatever time and effort you put into the prep yields no advantage over your classmates in the end. It would be almost imaginable to gain an advantage coming in and be able to secure and maintain that advantage throughout. Its just the nature of the game that it will all even out as everyone is exposed to the material.


I don't entirely agree. The field evens itself out pretty well come exam time, but it is not entirely even.
Regardless, if you know a bit coming in and have a background in some of the material you free up time and energy during the semester to learn other things or give yourself a slight break. It's not like you can do 0L prep and be insta top 20%, however, 0L prep can make the first semester more manageable so that you can spend more time doing practice exams rather than having to learn the law.


Your post history indicates that you are a 0L so what exactly gives you a basis for arguing me on this point? Your hunch and intuition vs. my actual experience here? Your opinion on this matter is just as worthless as any other 0L speculation. If you are going to make such claims, you NEED to preface it with the fact that you are a 0L and not speaking from actual experience. I'm glad you "don't entirely agree" but your "opinion" is wrong.

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TTH
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby TTH » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:32 am

dakatz wrote:
typ3 wrote:
dakatz wrote:
The only thing that matters in law school is the exam at the end of the semester. Lets say you do substantive prep before school. Sure, on the first few days, you have a feel for what the teacher is saying and you have an idea where the class is going (assuming that the professor teaches the material in the same way it is presented in a supplement, which is another overarching problem with 0L prep). However, your classmates will soon catch up to you and negate any advantage you may have had. And come exam time, the playing field has completely evened itself out. Thus, whatever time and effort you put into the prep yields no advantage over your classmates in the end. It would be almost imaginable to gain an advantage coming in and be able to secure and maintain that advantage throughout. Its just the nature of the game that it will all even out as everyone is exposed to the material.


I don't entirely agree. The field evens itself out pretty well come exam time, but it is not entirely even.
Regardless, if you know a bit coming in and have a background in some of the material you free up time and energy during the semester to learn other things or give yourself a slight break. It's not like you can do 0L prep and be insta top 20%, however, 0L prep can make the first semester more manageable so that you can spend more time doing practice exams rather than having to learn the law.


Your post history indicates that you are a 0L so what exactly gives you a basis for arguing me on this point? Your hunch and intuition vs. my actual experience here? Your opinion on this matter is just as worthless as any other 0L speculation. If you are going to make such claims, you NEED to preface it with the fact that you are a 0L and not speaking from actual experience. I'm glad you "don't entirely agree" but your "opinion" is wrong.


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Omerta
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby Omerta » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:42 am

txadv11 wrote:Ok, I think I'll stick with 1L of a Ride and GTM. Still debating the LEEWS CDs.


Reading GTM is about as much as you should do. Read it multiple times too: once during the summer, in the middle of the semester, and two weeks before exams. Maybe more than that. Personally, I find LEEWS absolutely worthless because your exam answer's structure should be catered to your professor, meaning that you design your answer structure for your professors, not modify LEEWS to fit the class.

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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby DeSimone » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:46 am

84% of tls'ers are in the 20% of their respective class. Pareto principle at work?

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txadv11
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby txadv11 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:48 am

Omerta wrote:
txadv11 wrote:Ok, I think I'll stick with 1L of a Ride and GTM. Still debating the LEEWS CDs.


Reading GTM is about as much as you should do. Read it multiple times too: once during the summer, in the middle of the semester, and two weeks before exams. Maybe more than that. Personally, I find LEEWS absolutely worthless because your exam answer's structure should be catered to your professor, meaning that you design your answer structure for your professors, not modify LEEWS to fit the class.

OK, great. Thanks! I must say that I really enjoyed 1L of a Ride, and it is really just because he (law professor) gets rid of the myths and some worries about the 1L year. I haven't started GTM because like you said, I'll need to read it several times--before, and during the semester, if time permits.

I think I remember a chapter in 1L of a Ride about 0L prepping and he actually talks about a student he had that found out the books she would need and during the summer she outlined each and every case for all subjects! :roll: Anyways, he actually said she failed out! I wasn't even planning on 10% of that prep but after hearing that, I'm not doing any substantive prep.

dakatz
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby dakatz » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:51 am

.
Last edited by dakatz on Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ghost
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby Ghost » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:51 am

.
Last edited by Ghost on Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TTH
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby TTH » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:53 am

Kili wrote:
Omerta wrote:
txadv11 wrote:Ok, I think I'll stick with 1L of a Ride and GTM. Still debating the LEEWS CDs.


Reading GTM is about as much as you should do. Read it multiple times too: once during the summer, in the middle of the semester, and two weeks before exams. Maybe more than that. Personally, I find LEEWS absolutely worthless because your exam answer's structure should be catered to your professor, meaning that you design your answer structure for your professors, not modify LEEWS to fit the class.


Is the entire book worth reading or is it like LSC where only one or two chapters are useful?


The entire book is probably worth reading, although the first part of it gets repetitive when they're going through all the different forks analogies. If you don't have time to read it all, be sure to read the policy section if nothing else.

Omerta
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby Omerta » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:09 pm

Kili wrote:
Omerta wrote:
txadv11 wrote:Ok, I think I'll stick with 1L of a Ride and GTM. Still debating the LEEWS CDs.


Reading GTM is about as much as you should do. Read it multiple times too: once during the summer, in the middle of the semester, and two weeks before exams. Maybe more than that. Personally, I find LEEWS absolutely worthless because your exam answer's structure should be catered to your professor, meaning that you design your answer structure for your professors, not modify LEEWS to fit the class.


Is the entire book worth reading or is it like LSC where only one or two chapters are useful?


Entire thing is worth reading. I never read LSC so I can't compare the two though.
I mapped my classes around the "fork" idea. I'm a visual person and I found it very helpful. It also made me make really crazy outlines. Instead of outlining top to bottom, I would present my ideas from left to right and structure my exam answers depending on the "forks" present in my outline.

This is a copy of my Erie doctrine analysis from my civpro outline. Erie is complicated in the abstract, but look at how simple this is to follow as you walk through a practice problem. By following the "forks" in the analysis, it's almost impossible for me to miss an analytical step.
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TTH
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Re: 0L prep correlation to 1L grades

Postby TTH » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:14 pm

My Erie chart wasn't as elaborate because we didn't spend as much time on it, but flowcharts are absolutely the way to do Erie, jurisdiction, forum, and the preclusion doctrines.

Civ Pro lends itself really well to this sort of approach.




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