Starting your own firm...

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Adjudicator
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby Adjudicator » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:13 am

drummerboy wrote:you mean the risk of starting any business. god forbid anyone assumes risk.i cant wait to get out there and begin competing with those so dead set on the prospect of failure. my outcome, success.


What are the statistics on the percentage of small businesses that survive?

Even if your own analogy is sound, what makes you think people want to spend 3 years in school and possibly $150,000+ in debt for the privilege of taking a risk of that magnitude?

And who starts a business anyway without any relevant work experience in that industry? Which you will not have, coming straight out of school.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:15 am

Adjudicator wrote:
drummerboy wrote:you mean the risk of starting any business. god forbid anyone assumes risk.i cant wait to get out there and begin competing with those so dead set on the prospect of failure. my outcome, success.


What are the statistics on the percentage of small businesses that survive?

Even if your own analogy is sound, what makes you think people want to spend 3 years in school and possibly $150,000+ in debt for the privilege of taking a risk of that magnitude?


Not to mention the additional loans required to start the firm (e.g. overhead, staff)

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TommyK
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby TommyK » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:17 am

drummerboy wrote:you mean the risk of starting any business. god forbid anyone assumes risk.i cant wait to get out there and begin competing with those so dead set on the prospect of failure. my outcome, success.


Child, please.

I would assume that if you tried starting another business, you would have some competitive advantage over other players in the marketplace so you can acquire competitive market share. If you're starting a law firm right out of law school, you have no connections, no experience, and no knowledge on how to run a firm. You're at a distinct competitive disadvantage in an incredibly crowded marketplace.

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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby drummerboy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:25 am

not much different i promise you. have you ever started your own business? people skills and business savy required for every known business. everyone already assumes your know your stuff and only a limited obnoxious few will give a shit about what law school you attended.

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TommyK
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby TommyK » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:28 am

drummerboy wrote:not much different i promise you. have you ever started your own business? people skills and business savy required for every known business. everyone already assumes your know your stuff and only a limited obnoxious few will give a shit about what law school you attended.


nobody said people will care what school you attend. People will care what your reputation is. And your reputation will be that you have ZERO legal experience, have never tried a case, have never filed a motion, and have never done anything even bordering real legal work.

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Adjudicator
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby Adjudicator » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:35 am

drummerboy wrote:not much different i promise you. have you ever started your own business? people skills and business savy required for every known business. everyone already assumes your know your stuff and only a limited obnoxious few will give a shit about what law school you attended.


Do you really think that the bolded part is true about small law offices and solo lawyers? When you see that lawyer with the billboard, or his face on the city bus, you think "I bet that guy really knows his stuff!"

Most people that I know seem to have a different predisposition towards such small-time lawyers. Overcoming the assumption of incompetence is a key to standing out and surviving, but how exactly do you do that?

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:39 am

This drummerboy is an insufferable ass. Starting a small business and starting a law firm are so fucking different its not even funny. You're right about the people skills and business savvy. But being a lawyer and founding your own firm require skills that the normal small business does not require.

And yes people will assume that you know your stuff. One problem: you won't know your stuff because you have 0 experience as a practicing attorney.
Last edited by MrPapagiorgio on Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AreJay711
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:40 am

TommyK wrote:
drummerboy wrote:not much different i promise you. have you ever started your own business? people skills and business savy required for every known business. everyone already assumes your know your stuff and only a limited obnoxious few will give a shit about what law school you attended.


nobody said people will care what school you attend. People will care what your reputation is. And your reputation will be that you have ZERO legal experience, have never tried a case, have never filed a motion, and have never done anything even bordering real legal work.

Yeah, who would ever hire you? In my limited experience hiring lawyers, experience was the main thing I looked for. Hell, I can read the laws and take a guess myself, I want someone that has actually dealt with it before. Most other businesses are the same way -- started by people with experience it the field that learned under other people first. There are a few where that is not necessary (landscaping for instance) but law isn't one of them. I also think the average graduate's financial situation is also a hindrance from taking truly desperate clients at a steep discount.

I actually plan of starting my own firm unless I make partner or have some other option I just couldn't turn down.

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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby drummerboy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:49 am

all of you are correct. but how about initially getting small paying jobs. not big law level. making connections etc. if you dont agree fine. moreover, since most of the applicants clearly wont get into T14 then why not bow out. i guess theres no hope. because i try to infuse a bit of optimisim, im called an ass. great.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:51 am

drummerboy wrote:all of you are correct. but how about initially getting small paying jobs. not big law level. making connections etc. if you dont agree fine. moreover, since most of the applicants clearly wont get into T14 then why not bow out. i guess theres no hope. because i try to infuse a bit of optimisim, im called an ass. great.


Sorry, calling you an ass was a bit harsh. But there is a fine line between optimism and ignorance. Thinking you can start a new endeavor in a field you have no experience in (especially one as competitive and difficult as law) is ignorant, foolish and overall, a bad move.

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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby drummerboy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:54 am

agreed but you can start getting small shitty paying jobs and evolve. i never said it would be easy. its scary as hell. ok suppose im wrong. what should we do ?

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AreJay711
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:56 am

drummerboy wrote:agreed but you can start getting small shitty paying jobs and evolve. i never said it would be easy. its scary as hell. ok suppose im wrong. what should we do ?

.... not go to law school if you are risk adverse?

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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby drummerboy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:01 am

correct but im not averse to risk. it nourishes me

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:04 am

drummerboy wrote:correct but im not averse to risk. it nourishes me


Just when I started to change my mind about you, you go and say something like that. :roll:

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AreJay711
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:12 am

drummerboy wrote:correct but im not averse to risk. it nourishes me

Then go for it. In conjunction with your other thread I'll say that I think you get the wrong impressions from the negativity on TLS. People will tell you not to go to law school bellow certain levels levels, there are even a decent number of people that say only HYS are worth sticker, but the real reason they say this is because most people think they will be making bank no matter where they go, in part because of schools posting misleading salary info. I've never really said that myself but I think most people say it so prospective students know what they are getting themselves into and so they at least reexamine their motives for wanting law school and their alternatives. If you are going into it with realistic expectations and knowing all the facts then good for you, even if everyone thinks it is a bad decision.

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TommyK
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby TommyK » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:25 am

drummerboy has just listened to too much Tony Robbins
--ImageRemoved--

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romothesavior
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:50 am

drummerboy wrote:you mean the risk of starting any business. god forbid anyone assumes risk.i cant wait to get out there and begin competing with those so dead set on the prospect of failure. my outcome, success.

Dude, come on. Risk is fine. I took a risk to go to law school, and so did almost everyone else. It is all about taking rational risks. I can tell you that law school simply does not prepare you well for practicing law. Ask almost any lawyer if they felt prepared to practice law when they graduated. I can almost guarantee you that most will say no (all of them I've talked to have said no). After one semester, I feel no better prepared to practice law than I did 6 months ago. I know how to login to Westlaw, and I know some random stuff about obscure common law cases, but that's it. I don't know how to practice law like attorneys do everyday. Will I try to start my own firm if I can't get employed? You betcha. But is it wise to consider "going solo" as a viable fallback as a 0L? Uh... no. It's ridiculously stupid.

Starting your own firm is just a high risk, highly problematic thing to do. Some have succeeded. I know a guy who succeeded in doing it from a T4. But it is so hard to do, and it is not at all comparable to starting any old business. It is a highly oversaturated field that runs the risk of malpractice suits. Please, before you come in here and start telling us how we're all a bunch of pessimistic failures, do a little research and know what you're talking about.

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pu_golf88
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby pu_golf88 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:08 am

flame

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stintez
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby stintez » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:10 am

Desert Fox wrote:
UCSD1984 wrote:Why doesn't anyone on these forums discuss this possibility if they can't find a job or their BigLaw dreams are crushed? Usually starting your own firm dictates "crap" work, or whatever one would refer to it as (Civil, DUIs, Divorce, etc.). Just curious to know what all the elitists on this loud-ass forum think about it. Serious topic, serious question.


I dunno I'm learning almost no real law. Seems like I'd have no idea what hte fuck is going on.

+1

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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby drummerboy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:00 am

sorry just busting chops. im scared shitless too. its just that i think ill be a decent lawyer and pretty much know that i wont be T14. so i have to convince myself that the golden goose is out there. im sorry i seem insensitive to everyones concerns but i know i want to go to law school so i have to try to look at the future in a positive light. please dont take my banter personally. we need some comic relief no matter how obnoxious it may seem to all. sorry

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby Stringer Bell » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:22 am

drummerboy wrote:all of you are correct. but how about initially getting small paying jobs. not big law level. making connections etc. if you dont agree fine. moreover, since most of the applicants clearly wont get into T14 then why not bow out. i guess theres no hope. because i try to infuse a bit of optimisim, im called an ass. great.


This is completely different than starting a firm with no experience. I know someone that went to a TTT, worked for peanuts for a DWI attorney and started his own solo practice a couple of years ago. He's actually doing decent and has the potential to do relatively well. It's tough, but not impossible.

I mean maybe if you were willing to work for pretty much nothing doing "spit law" for people that can't afford an attorney you could start a solo practice straight out of school.

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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby franklin14 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:38 am

edit
Last edited by franklin14 on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AreJay711
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:44 am

franklin14 wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:
drummerboy wrote:you mean the risk of starting any business. god forbid anyone assumes risk.i cant wait to get out there and begin competing with those so dead set on the prospect of failure. my outcome, success.


Are you really comparing starting a law firm with starting some small business like a deli? No offense to the deli owners out there, but I'm pretty sure that there is a difference between starting a small business and starting a law firm.


I don't think any deli owners are offended... It is probably harder to start a deli. Deli loans require the ability to show that you can pay them back and basic a understanding of finance and accounting. You also have to know how to make a sandwhich, whereas a lawyer doesn't actually have to know how to practice law before beginning.

... except the fact that no one will ever hire a lawyer that doesn't know what he or she is doing. If you ruin my sandwich I can get over it but when dealing with the custody of my child or going to jail most people want the best they can afford. Also, once again, very few people start their own business with no experience in ANY field.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:46 am

I mean, why don't people just start succesful businesses right out of college all the time? You just have to put your feet to the pavement and work hard. When you do that, you will succeed. Right?

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Re: Starting your own firm...

Postby drummerboy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:58 am

to those in debt(like myself) to those not getting into T14 (like myself) We can only hope for the best. An uphill battle awaits us all. Lets at least try to go into this "purgatory" of a profession with the most postive attitude as possible. Agreed?




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