should I transfer or wait?

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swtlilsoni
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should I transfer or wait?

Postby swtlilsoni » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:21 pm

After getting my Dec LSAT results back, it seems like I have very slim to none chances of getting in the schools I wanted to get in =\. Do you think I should go to a lower school with the hopes of transferring? Or wait another year and retake the LSAT? The only qualm I have about waiting another year is that I have already waited one year (graduated late) and I don't want to waste any more time.

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bk1
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:25 pm

No. Going in and expecting to transfer is an awful idea considering you'll have a 10% or less chance of being successful

Suck it up and retake. Waiting a year may seem like a big deal but it isn't. There is no difference between 25/26 or 30/31 or 41/42 or 63/64, etc, etc.

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megaTTTron
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby megaTTTron » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:21 am

most def retake. transferring is hard to predict, but not as hard as 1L grades.

LurkerNoMore
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby LurkerNoMore » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:44 am

Wait.

Admissions varies only slightly year to year. Transferring can vary widely. You are much more in control in the admission process. There are certain boxes you need to check and, barring something totally flukey on your resume/writing, you have a pretty good idea of the range of schools you will get into.

For transferring, not only do you need to do very well your first year, but you will often need very good letters of recommendation. Add to that the fact that schools vary in how many transfers they take each year and what schools they draw from (and what schools they get a lot of applications from) and you are taking a big risk in trying to transfer up.

concurrent fork
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby concurrent fork » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:38 pm

All above is credited. Only attend a school if you would be happy graduating from there.

ran12
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby ran12 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:59 pm

concurrent fork wrote:All above is credited. Only attend a school if you would be happy graduating from there.


Yea don't pick a school thinking you'll transfer. I personally think transferring might be easier than waiting a year. Sure it's unpredictable but assuming you do well, 3.8+, a T20 wouldn't be out of the question even if the number of spots fluctuate depending on attrition. I think that even T50 can lead to a well paying job out of school if you work hard enough in class and make the right connections through networking. The reason I think retaking and waiting would be harder is that

1) Preparing for the LSAT and taking it are hard to do. You may have the right mindset to really focus and do well, put the time in, but there are factors that could impede you doing well.

2) You'll need to write a new personal statement, get new LORs, and while you need to do that for transferring, it'll be easier to do that for transferring b/c the transfer PS is pretty much a why I want to transfer to x school statement, and LORs are from professors whereas if you're reapplying, your LORs are gonna have to be from teachers you haven't seen in a while or your employer

3) I don't know many employers who will hire you knowing that you plan to bail for law school within a year. With that said, I don't think your employer is likely to write a recommendation b/c they haven't known you long enough at the point you need the letter. This is assuming you find a full time job with an org/company that you've got no relationship with.

4) A lot of people go into the workforce thinking they'll work a little then go back to school. But many times, you keep getting promoted or get used to certain lifestyle and it becomes difficult to go back to school.

I'm not saying my argument is the right one but these are factors that should be considered.

concurrent fork
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby concurrent fork » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:05 pm

ran12 wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:All above is credited. Only attend a school if you would be happy graduating from there.


Yea don't pick a school thinking you'll transfer. I personally think transferring might be easier than waiting a year. Sure it's unpredictable but assuming you do well, 3.8+, a T20 wouldn't be out of the question even if the number of spots fluctuate depending on attrition. I think that even T50 can lead to a well paying job out of school if you work hard enough in class and make the right connections through networking. The reason I think retaking and waiting would be harder is that

1) Preparing for the LSAT and taking it are hard to do. You may have the right mindset to really focus and do well, put the time in, but there are factors that could impede you doing well.

2) You'll need to write a new personal statement, get new LORs, and while you need to do that for transferring, it'll be easier to do that for transferring b/c the transfer PS is pretty much a why I want to transfer to x school statement, and LORs are from professors whereas if you're reapplying, your LORs are gonna have to be from teachers you haven't seen in a while or your employer

3) I don't know many employers who will hire you knowing that you plan to bail for law school within a year. With that said, I don't think your employer is likely to write a recommendation b/c they haven't known you long enough at the point you need the letter. This is assuming you find a full time job with an org/company that you've got no relationship with.

4) A lot of people go into the workforce thinking they'll work a little then go back to school. But many times, you keep getting promoted or get used to certain lifestyle and it becomes difficult to go back to school.

I'm not saying my argument is the right one but these are factors that should be considered.

Suffice to say that transferring is significantly harder than you think it is. It is always easier to spend the time and effort retaking the LSAT.

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patrickd139
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:09 pm

concurrent fork wrote:Suffice to say that transferring is significantly harder than you think it is. It is always easier to spend the time and effort retaking the LSAT.

Co-signed. Plus, even if you get to the point where you could transfer, there are 100 reasons not to do it. Retake, reapply. Get some enjoyable work experience in the mean-time and let the economy recover a little. Looks like the lost generation of lawyers might not have closed just yet.

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BrownBears09
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:54 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:Suffice to say that transferring is significantly harder than you think it is. It is always easier to spend the time and effort retaking the LSAT.

Co-signed. Plus, even if you get to the point where you could transfer, there are 100 reasons not to do it. Retake, reapply. Get some enjoyable work experience in the mean-time and let the economy recover a little. Looks like the lost generation of lawyers might not have closed just yet.


Meh, there's a point in cost-benefit where a retake just doesn't make any sense when considering ranges of schools (i.e. GPA floors.) After you pass this threshold, the only reason to retake would be to squeeze out money from those schools where you would have been paying sticker.

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bk1
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby bk1 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:58 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:Meh, there's a point in cost-benefit where a retake just doesn't make any sense when considering ranges of schools (i.e. GPA floors.) After you pass this threshold, the only reason to retake would be to squeeze out money from those schools where you would have been paying sticker.


Two things:

1. This is a very rare case.

2. Splitter friendly schools.

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Lawquacious
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:02 pm

It's been said 90 times over, but if you're in a position to retake I would do so. I came to law school not planning to transfer, but strongly hoping to do so, and I think even that attitude has added a lot of unnecessary stress. I really think after being in law school that retaking the LSAT, even if a pain or inconvenient, is a WAY better plan for getting into a highly ranked school than planning to transfer.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BrownBears09
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:03 pm

bk1 wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:Meh, there's a point in cost-benefit where a retake just doesn't make any sense when considering ranges of schools (i.e. GPA floors.) After you pass this threshold, the only reason to retake would be to squeeze out money from those schools where you would have been paying sticker.


Two things:

1. This is a very rare case.

2. Splitter friendly schools.


Hourumd.com a URM/Non-URM GPA of 3.25 and 165-170 (assuming a 170+ is unlikely) and you'll get my drift. And while your "splitter friendly" schools may be a possibility, realize that if you're set on a target market, you're still taking a year off and retaking for (very) limited options.

The point is that a 3.25 GPA will lock you out of a most dream schools despite your LSAT range capabilities. And if they don't completely lock you out, you're in for a wild splitter cycle that has no guarantees.

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Lawquacious
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:09 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:Meh, there's a point in cost-benefit where a retake just doesn't make any sense when considering ranges of schools (i.e. GPA floors.) After you pass this threshold, the only reason to retake would be to squeeze out money from those schools where you would have been paying sticker.


Two things:

1. This is a very rare case.

2. Splitter friendly schools.


Hourumd.com a URM/Non-URM GPA of 3.25 and 165-170 (assuming a 170+ is unlikely) and you'll get my drift. And while your "splitter friendly" schools may be a possibility, realize that if you're set on a target market, you're still taking a year off and retaking for (very) limited options.

The point is that a 3.25 GPA will lock you out of a most dream schools despite your LSAT range capabilities. And if they don't completely lock you out, you're in for a wild splitter cycle that has no guarantees.


I think depending on where a person is aiming and what he or she is comfortable with this may not be bad advice. But it sounds like OP is shooting high and is not really comfortable with the options currently available, in which case I think that going to law school with the plan to transfer is a terrible idea.

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BrownBears09
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:12 pm

Lawquacious wrote:But it sounds like OP is shooting high and is not really comfortable with the options currently available, in which case I think that going to law school with the plan to transfer is a terrible idea.


Completely agree with you. In a worst case scenario, you should be happy graduating from your initial school.

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vamedic03
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby vamedic03 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:00 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:Meh, there's a point in cost-benefit where a retake just doesn't make any sense when considering ranges of schools (i.e. GPA floors.) After you pass this threshold, the only reason to retake would be to squeeze out money from those schools where you would have been paying sticker.


Two things:

1. This is a very rare case.

2. Splitter friendly schools.


Hourumd.com a URM/Non-URM GPA of 3.25 and 165-170 (assuming a 170+ is unlikely) and you'll get my drift. And while your "splitter friendly" schools may be a possibility, realize that if you're set on a target market, you're still taking a year off and retaking for (very) limited options.

The point is that a 3.25 GPA will lock you out of a most dream schools despite your LSAT range capabilities. And if they don't completely lock you out, you're in for a wild splitter cycle that has no guarantees.


Better to wait a year:

(1) Chance to take a longer period of time to study and prepare for retaking LSAT.

(2) The more work experience the better:
(a) work experience is good for law school admissions; and,
(b) work experience is good for OCI.

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vamedic03
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby vamedic03 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:02 pm

ran12 wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:All above is credited. Only attend a school if you would be happy graduating from there.


Yea don't pick a school thinking you'll transfer. I personally think transferring might be easier than waiting a year. Sure it's unpredictable but assuming you do well, 3.8+, a T20 wouldn't be out of the question even if the number of spots fluctuate depending on attrition. I think that even T50 can lead to a well paying job out of school if you work hard enough in class and make the right connections through networking. The reason I think retaking and waiting would be harder is that

1) Preparing for the LSAT and taking it are hard to do. You may have the right mindset to really focus and do well, put the time in, but there are factors that could impede you doing well.

2) You'll need to write a new personal statement, get new LORs, and while you need to do that for transferring, it'll be easier to do that for transferring b/c the transfer PS is pretty much a why I want to transfer to x school statement, and LORs are from professors whereas if you're reapplying, your LORs are gonna have to be from teachers you haven't seen in a while or your employer

3) I don't know many employers who will hire you knowing that you plan to bail for law school within a year. With that said, I don't think your employer is likely to write a recommendation b/c they haven't known you long enough at the point you need the letter. This is assuming you find a full time job with an org/company that you've got no relationship with.

4) A lot of people go into the workforce thinking they'll work a little then go back to school. But many times, you keep getting promoted or get used to certain lifestyle and it becomes difficult to go back to school.

I'm not saying my argument is the right one but these are factors that should be considered.


I don't want to be mean, but as a 0L - you don't have experience to talk about: (1) transferring or (2) OCI/legal recruiting.

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patrickd139
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:20 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
ran12 wrote:Yea don't pick a school thinking you'll transfer. I personally think transferring might be easier than waiting a year. Sure it's unpredictable but assuming you do well, 3.8+, a T20 wouldn't be out of the question even if the number of spots fluctuate depending on attrition. I think that even T50 can lead to a well paying job out of school if you work hard enough in class and make the right connections through networking. The reason I think retaking and waiting would be harder is that

1) Preparing for the LSAT and taking it are hard to do. You may have the right mindset to really focus and do well, put the time in, but there are factors that could impede you doing well.

2) You'll need to write a new personal statement, get new LORs, and while you need to do that for transferring, it'll be easier to do that for transferring b/c the transfer PS is pretty much a why I want to transfer to x school statement, and LORs are from professors whereas if you're reapplying, your LORs are gonna have to be from teachers you haven't seen in a while or your employer

3) I don't know many employers who will hire you knowing that you plan to bail for law school within a year. With that said, I don't think your employer is likely to write a recommendation b/c they haven't known you long enough at the point you need the letter. This is assuming you find a full time job with an org/company that you've got no relationship with.

4) A lot of people go into the workforce thinking they'll work a little then go back to school. But many times, you keep getting promoted or get used to certain lifestyle and it becomes difficult to go back to school.

I'm not saying my argument is the right one but these are factors that should be considered.


I don't want to be mean, but as a 0L - you don't have experience to talk about: (1) transferring or (2) OCI/legal recruiting.

Normally, I wouldn't want to be mean either, but 0Ls advising people to try transferring instead of retaking is one of my pet peeves. Not only that, but a vast majority of ran12's advice seems completely off the mark.

Landing in the top 5-10% of a law school class and then transferring is easier than sitting out a year and upping an LSAT score?

Writing a new PS and getting LORs is somehow easier during/after your 1L year (when you're presumably also writing on to LR, working or interning, and from professors at a school you're openly telling to eff off) than doing the same thing when you're not in a pressure-cooker environment and have professors/employers invested in you getting to the next level?

Not every employer is looking for a lifetime employee. Find one who isn't.

Finding a job that promotes you, that you enjoy, and which allows you to adjust to a comfortable lifestyle is somehow a reason not to take said job?

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BrownBears09
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:50 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:Meh, there's a point in cost-benefit where a retake just doesn't make any sense when considering ranges of schools (i.e. GPA floors.) After you pass this threshold, the only reason to retake would be to squeeze out money from those schools where you would have been paying sticker.


Two things:

1. This is a very rare case.

2. Splitter friendly schools.


Hourumd.com a URM/Non-URM GPA of 3.25 and 165-170 (assuming a 170+ is unlikely) and you'll get my drift. And while your "splitter friendly" schools may be a possibility, realize that if you're set on a target market, you're still taking a year off and retaking for (very) limited options.

The point is that a 3.25 GPA will lock you out of a most dream schools despite your LSAT range capabilities. And if they don't completely lock you out, you're in for a wild splitter cycle that has no guarantees.


Better to wait a year:

(1) Chance to take a longer period of time to study and prepare for retaking LSAT.

(2) The more work experience the better:
(a) work experience is good for law school admissions; and,
(b) work experience is good for OCI.


Generic advice is generic. Of course WE will help, but it's 1 year so keep it in perspective. This isn't a 10 year non-trad. Do you really think 1 year of WE is going to help a GPA floor? Doubtful (although I wish it did, for my own sake.)

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BrownBears09
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:54 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:
ran12 wrote:Yea don't pick a school thinking you'll transfer. I personally think transferring might be easier than waiting a year. Sure it's unpredictable but assuming you do well, 3.8+, a T20 wouldn't be out of the question even if the number of spots fluctuate depending on attrition. I think that even T50 can lead to a well paying job out of school if you work hard enough in class and make the right connections through networking. The reason I think retaking and waiting would be harder is that

1) Preparing for the LSAT and taking it are hard to do. You may have the right mindset to really focus and do well, put the time in, but there are factors that could impede you doing well.

2) You'll need to write a new personal statement, get new LORs, and while you need to do that for transferring, it'll be easier to do that for transferring b/c the transfer PS is pretty much a why I want to transfer to x school statement, and LORs are from professors whereas if you're reapplying, your LORs are gonna have to be from teachers you haven't seen in a while or your employer

3) I don't know many employers who will hire you knowing that you plan to bail for law school within a year. With that said, I don't think your employer is likely to write a recommendation b/c they haven't known you long enough at the point you need the letter. This is assuming you find a full time job with an org/company that you've got no relationship with.

4) A lot of people go into the workforce thinking they'll work a little then go back to school. But many times, you keep getting promoted or get used to certain lifestyle and it becomes difficult to go back to school.

I'm not saying my argument is the right one but these are factors that should be considered.


I don't want to be mean, but as a 0L - you don't have experience to talk about: (1) transferring or (2) OCI/legal recruiting.

Normally, I wouldn't want to be mean either, but 0Ls advising people to try transferring instead of retaking is one of my pet peeves. Not only that, but a vast majority of ran12's advice seems completely off the mark.

Landing in the top 5-10% of a law school class and then transferring is easier than sitting out a year and upping an LSAT score? He doesn't address this point.

Writing a new PS and getting LORs is somehow easier during/after your 1L year (when you're presumably also writing on to LR, working or interning, and from professors at a school you're openly telling to eff off) than doing the same thing when you're not in a pressure-cooker environment and have professors/employers invested in you getting to the next level? He doesn't address this point

Not every employer is looking for a lifetime employee. Find one who isn't. He doesn't address this point

Finding a job that promotes you, that you enjoy, and which allows you to adjust to a comfortable lifestyle is somehow a reason not to take said job? He only stated promotion, he said nothing about "enjoying" the work. Hell, I could get promoted tomorrow, but it doesn't make me anymore likely to "enjoy" my current job.



Counterpoint, because none of your rebuttals have anything to do with his response and you're merely straw-manning each of his arguments.

albanach
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby albanach » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:08 pm

Even if the GPA floor was to prove decisive and deny access to a T14, a higher LSAT would probably open up significant scholarships from many other T1 schools.

Substantially limiting the debt would make a lower ranked school more attractive than it might be at present.

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BrownBears09
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:12 pm

albanach wrote:Even if the GPA floor was to prove decisive and deny access to a T14, a higher LSAT would probably open up significant scholarships from many other T1 schools.

Substantially limiting the debt would make a lower ranked school more attractive than it might be at present.


Of course.

BrownBears09 wrote:After you pass this threshold, the only reason to retake would be to squeeze out money from those schools where you would have been paying sticker.

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vamedic03
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:41 am

BrownBears09 wrote:
Generic advice is generic. Of course WE will help, but it's 1 year so keep it in perspective. This isn't a 10 year non-trad. Do you really think 1 year of WE is going to help a GPA floor? Doubtful (although I wish it did, for my own sake.)


Then OP should spend 2 years. Rushing into a $100k+ investment on the outside chance of transferring is not a smart move. The risk averse and rational decision is to work for a couple years and take time to prep for the LSAT. Plus, at least at my T14, there seems to be some correlation between work experience and academic performance.

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patrickd139
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Re: should I transfer or wait?

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:55 am

BrownBears09 wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:Normally, I wouldn't want to be mean either, but 0Ls advising people to try transferring instead of retaking is one of my pet peeves. Not only that, but a vast majority of ran12's advice seems completely off the mark.

Landing in the top 5-10% of a law school class and then transferring is easier than sitting out a year and upping an LSAT score? He doesn't address this point.

Writing a new PS and getting LORs is somehow easier during/after your 1L year (when you're presumably also writing on to LR, working or interning, and from professors at a school you're openly telling to eff off) than doing the same thing when you're not in a pressure-cooker environment and have professors/employers invested in you getting to the next level? He doesn't address this point

Not every employer is looking for a lifetime employee. Find one who isn't. He doesn't address this point

Finding a job that promotes you, that you enjoy, and which allows you to adjust to a comfortable lifestyle is somehow a reason not to take said job? He only stated promotion, he said nothing about "enjoying" the work. Hell, I could get promoted tomorrow, but it doesn't make me anymore likely to "enjoy" my current job.

Counterpoint, because none of your rebuttals have anything to do with his response and you're merely straw-manning each of his arguments.

1) S/he does address this point. His/her post said "I personally think transferring might be easier than waiting a year." Check it out. It's there.
2) You're wrong again. His/her post said "...it'll be easier to do that for transferring..." Whether OP sits out a year or transfers, OP will have to write a new PS, get new LORs. But even this point is debatable, as OP can likely reuse his/her PS and LORs from this cycle if s/he sits out a year, and would have to pen an entirely new PS and get LORs from professors whom s/he barely knows for the transfer process. Reusing is (for almost everyone) much, much easier than starting from scratch. Not to mention the fact that there's a bias against transferring amongst many (but not all) law professors OP would be seeking LORs from to transfer. Just because I expanded the scope of the inquiry and pointed out issues OP and/or ran12 might not be taking into account does not mean that, in doing so, I did not directly address a certain point. Welcome to arguing in the alternative.
3) Again, ran12 addresses this point (and by now, I'm starting to think you didn't read ran12's post, which I even quoted for you above mine). His/her post said "I don't know many employers who will hire you knowing that you plan to bail..." To which I replied: find one who will hire you; they're out there.
4) This was a push. I took the basic idea from ran12's post of "you could get a job and be tempted to stay because it's a path set in motion" and replied (in general) "that's not a bad thing."




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