Come in and choose the university I go to :) Forum

[redgreenpaper]

Interesting to note that GPA is more important than LSAT to Canadian law schools. Reverse is true in the U.S.

Is this fact confirmed? Also, I editted my question if you guys have some advice about York University.

Yes, it is most certainly true. The main reason is probably that GPAs from Canadian schools are, at least to other Canadian schools, better and more reliable indicators than their American counterparts. The Canadian educational system is simply more uniform than the American system. U of T is something of an outlier grades wise, but other schools know this, so you should get a little more leeway with a U of T degree (in the same way that all top schools know that Princeton deflates, all law schools in Canada are familiar with U of T's stricter grading policy), especially since Canadian schools are also a little more "holistic" than American schools.

York is a perfectly respectable university, though it obviously is a step down from U of T and doesn't have the international reputation. Do you know what you plan to study in undergrad? If you already know your major then you should probably look at the differences between York and U of T for your specific interests.

Also: lawstudents.ca is a much better source than TLS for Canadian admissions.

I plan on studying at either York or U of T. The only thing stopping me from going to U of T is the curve. Like some people said, Canadian law schools care more about GPA than they do LSAT so I'm kind of leaning towards York. Also, I plan on doing something that may prep me for law school or at least promise me a high GPA like philosophy or psychology. And yeah, I have been going on lawstudents.ca.

[The Real Jack McCoy]

I don't know much about psychology departments, but Toronto has the best philosophy program in Canada by a large margin. It would be a top 20 department in the US, and no other Canadian school really comes close.

[3ThrowAway99]

Generally, sad but true, it makes sense for someone set on going to law school to go to a UG college that is easier on the grading (even though this probably means the program isn't as good). Currently law school admissions doesn't weight UGPA according to which schools have harder grading or harder curricula.

In your case, I don't know how much of a difference it will make if you go to a UG in Canada because I'm not sure how they translate grades into LSAC UGPA. But probably 'the higher the grades the better' holds true.

Another thing you may wish to consider is that unless you know for sure the grading system at the more prestigious UG is much less forgiving or that you are a relatively weak applicant, I don't know that there is reason to think you won't grade well enough to get into some great law schools. However, I imagine it is true that it could be comparatively tough to get over 3.5 or 3.6 at a top UG (just speculation), and if so, that could impair your ability to get a few of the very top law schools (Y/H/S). On the other hand, you likely would be better prepared for the LSAT in going to the more difficult and better UG.

[bigkahuna2020]

I plan on studying at either York or U of T. The only thing stopping me from going to U of T is the curve. Like some people said, Canadian law schools care more about GPA than they do LSAT so I'm kind of leaning towards York. Also, I plan on doing something that may prep me for law school or at least promise me a high GPA like philosophy or psychology. And yeah, I have been going on lawstudents.ca.

Be careful...philosophy was the lowest average GPA major at my school in Canada. Also, psych, at least on the biological/neuro side, seems to be best at McGill, but none of this means anything until you start doing research. Neither of these should be chosen for easy A's. If you are serious about choosing your GPA based on ease rather than interest, I'd advise poli sci, sociology, anthropology (NOT evolutionary or biological/medical) or business

[leggy1T1]

Philosophy is great at U of T. Potentially requires a lot of work, tho.

Psychology is AWFUL. Seriously: the department was cut way back in the 1960s, we lost all our best profs, and have never recovered. Do not do psych at U of T.

[Seally]

Be carefully due to the number of different grading system conversion can really hurt Canada GPA

This is true. U of T has way more cred than Ryerson - even among Cdn law schools.
Unless you're doing a practical program (nursing, nutrition, business) you'd be insane to choose Ryerson.

Not really, the only province weighting program difficulty are the French Universities in Quebec since they take into consideration both GPA and R-Score(Determined by calculating your performance vs your group's average, program difficulty and standard deviation) For ex: An Engineering grad with decent grades stands better chances for Law School admission than a Political Science grad with amazing grades at University of Montreal or ULaval.

Before you claim French Universities are half-assed, University of Montreal has amazing BigLaw placement stats and it's reach in Canada just keeps increasing AND many english students go there since their Law program has lots of English content. Their LL.B./M.B.A. program is currently beating McGill's dual Law program since McGill's Reform that screwed up their M.B.A. degree...

Anywhere else, GPA conversion isn't such a problem, just maintain GOOD grades anywhere you go and you will have a good shot to a Top Canadian Law School, just try to get a good LSAT score and good ECs to keep yourself competitive for the Top 3 (McGill, UofT, Oz).

[Seally]

Philosophy is great at U of T. Potentially requires a lot of work, tho.

Psychology is AWFUL. Seriously: the department was cut way back in the 1960s, we lost all our best profs, and have never recovered. Do not do psych at U of T.

Psych Undergrads are pointless and can be done anywhere, so i agree with your comment, but, judging from the competitiveness of Psy.D. and NeuroPsych advanced degrees, getting accepted at UofT for 3rd cycle is a chance that nobody wanting to become a Certified Psychologist should miss.

[bigkahuna2020]

Philosophy is great at U of T. Potentially requires a lot of work, tho.

Psychology is AWFUL. Seriously: the department was cut way back in the 1960s, we lost all our best profs, and have never recovered. Do not do psych at U of T.

Psych Undergrads are pointless and can be done anywhere, so i agree with your comment, but, judging from the competitiveness of Psy.D. and NeuroPsych advanced degrees, getting accepted at UofT for 3rd cycle is a chance that nobody wanting to become a Certified Psychologist should miss.

Depends on what kind of psych and if you go and do research

[Fark-o-vision]

Remember that TLS is awful short-sighted. Getting the best GPA at a weak university in an easy program is the best way to get a high GPA, that's true, and grinding out the LSAT prep will get you in the 170's, high 160's. However, every rhetoric student I've ever met who has taken the LSAT is running a 165+ diagnostic. It isn't that they're smarter, but that the line of thinking the LSAT employs is based in large part on formal and informal logic, as well as reading comprehension. Rhetoric programs prepare you very well for legal type thinking.

Also, I've heard some anecdotal evidence that--especially outside the t14--undergrad reputation and program of study can influence OCI hiring.

[Seally]

Remember that TLS is awful short-sighted. Getting the best GPA at a weak university in an easy program is the best way to get a high GPA, that's true, and grinding out the LSAT prep will get you in the 170's, high 160's. However, every rhetoric student I've ever met who has taken the LSAT is running a 165+ diagnostic. It isn't that they're smarter, but that the line of thinking the LSAT employs is based in large part on formal and informal logic, as well as reading comprehension. Rhetoric programs prepare you very well for legal type thinking.

Also, I've heard some anecdotal evidence that--especially outside the t14--undergrad reputation and program of study can influence OCI hiring.

OCI hiring is more about seducing your Interviewer than having a good background.
If he likes you, you get something, if not, you are told to fuck off.

[redgreenpaper]

Damn it's so hard for me to decide what undergrad program i want to get into because i have no idea what my interests are. no joke. im an all around guy with the same opinion on almost every subject. i feel like there would be nothing in particular that i would enjoy or excel in.

[Seally]

Damn it's so hard for me to decide what undergrad program i want to get into because i have no idea what my interests are. no joke. im an all around guy with the same opinion on almost every subject. i feel like there would be nothing in particular that i would enjoy or excel in.

If you want Law, at this point, just take the easiest degree and rock there.
Philosophy/Political Science/History are the top 3 choices for the EZ-Modders wanting Law School, if i was you i would take History, at least this knowledge will be more useful than Platon books or 1800's political systems.

[Moxie]

Generally, sad but true, it makes sense for someone set on going to law school to go to a UG college that is easier on the grading (even though this probably means the program isn't as good). Currently law school admissions doesn't weight UGPA according to which schools have harder grading or harder curricula.

Definitely, but is everyone really telling a high school student to plan his future around his (present) hope to go to law school? From the information in this thread, University of Toronto has more prestige and is much more respected than the other choice, so shouldn't we consider that when advising him/her about what school to go to?

OP - your ambitions could change, and you owe it to yourself to go to the best school (assuming costs are similar) to maintain employment opportunities when you graduate. Going to an "easier" school sounds good, but if you decide to postpone or cancel your LS ambitions, you'll be screwed.

[Fark-o-vision]

Remember that TLS is awful short-sighted. Getting the best GPA at a weak university in an easy program is the best way to get a high GPA, that's true, and grinding out the LSAT prep will get you in the 170's, high 160's. However, every rhetoric student I've ever met who has taken the LSAT is running a 165+ diagnostic. It isn't that they're smarter, but that the line of thinking the LSAT employs is based in large part on formal and informal logic, as well as reading comprehension. Rhetoric programs prepare you very well for legal type thinking.

Also, I've heard some anecdotal evidence that--especially outside the t14--undergrad reputation and program of study can influence OCI hiring.

OCI hiring is more about seducing your Interviewer than having a good background.
If he likes you, you get something, if not, you are told to fuck off.

A friend of mine got a job out of his MBA because he and his interviewer were both Stanford alums. They just shot the shit about professors and the football team for a while. I've heard other stories on here about folks with "double" ivy pedigree getting the same treatment.

[Seally]

Remember that TLS is awful short-sighted. Getting the best GPA at a weak university in an easy program is the best way to get a high GPA, that's true, and grinding out the LSAT prep will get you in the 170's, high 160's. However, every rhetoric student I've ever met who has taken the LSAT is running a 165+ diagnostic. It isn't that they're smarter, but that the line of thinking the LSAT employs is based in large part on formal and informal logic, as well as reading comprehension. Rhetoric programs prepare you very well for legal type thinking.

Also, I've heard some anecdotal evidence that--especially outside the t14--undergrad reputation and program of study can influence OCI hiring.

OCI hiring is more about seducing your Interviewer than having a good background.
If he likes you, you get something, if not, you are told to fuck off.

A friend of mine got a job out of his MBA because he and his interviewer were both Stanford alums. They just shot the shit about professors and the football team for a while. I've heard other stories on here about folks with "double" ivy pedigree getting the same treatment.

Exactly, that said, the better the alumni base is, the better your odds are to get a good job, but if the interviewer doesn't like you, you're over, wether you come from top school like Yale or or a shit school like Loyola.

[redgreenpaper]

Generally, sad but true, it makes sense for someone set on going to law school to go to a UG college that is easier on the grading (even though this probably means the program isn't as good). Currently law school admissions doesn't weight UGPA according to which schools have harder grading or harder curricula.

Definitely, but is everyone really telling a high school student to plan his future around his (present) hope to go to law school? From the information in this thread, University of Toronto has more prestige and is much more respected than the other choice, so shouldn't we consider that when advising him/her about what school to go to?

OP - your ambitions could change, and you owe it to yourself to go to the best school (assuming costs are similar) to maintain employment opportunities when you graduate. Going to an "easier" school sounds good, but if you decide to postpone or cancel your LS ambitions, you'll be screwed.

yes but if i were to go to a school with a better reputation but harder bell curve, but i take a course like philosophy, im still screwed. you know what i mean? like this is what im thinking. i want to be a lawyer to i would take an easy course like philosophy. but it doesnt matter whether i go to harvard philosophy or york philosophy. even if i go to a school with a better reputation for that kind of course i would still be jobless in the future (or low paying crap job). right?

[Saltqjibo]

I guess you have to think about the type of student you are. If you go to U of T be prepared to work your ass off and still have a few setbacks. There are classed where 95% of the marks are clustered in the 50-70% range and its almost impossible to get out -- you will take atleast a small hit.

That being said if you can work hard and steadily (hunt down all practice tests, talk to TAs about what they look for in papers, grind through absolutely every scrap of the reading more than once before tests, record lectures and re-listen) and you have a bit of brains it is not impossible to succeed. And I suppose the U of T name counts for something -- but this is hotly debated.

As for those who say you are hindering your intellectual development, I would counsel against going to U of T if you want to develop your intellectual awareness etc. Because of large class sizes and the aforementioned curve, most of the assignments and grading at U of T are very formulaic. i.e. do you remember this obscure fact from side box of your textbook. A smaller uni with a good rep such as mount A might help your growth a bit more.

I scored mid 170s on the LSAT and my best advice for long term LSAT prep is simply to take courses in an extremely broad range of subjects. You would be surprised at how much easier questions become when you know some of the basics of literary theory, evolutionary theory, psychology etc. you can do this wherever you go.