Mac or PC?

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Bill Cosby
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby Bill Cosby » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:50 pm

For those who think Macs are so much more secure...


Fully patched versions of Safari and Internet Explorer 8 were both successfully hacked today at pwn2own, the annual hacking competition held as part of the CanSecWest security conference. If a researcher can pwn the browser—that is, make it run arbitrary code—then they get to own the hardware the browser runs on. This year, not only did they have to run arbitrary code, they also had to escape any sandboxes—restricted environments with reduced access to data and the operating system—that are imposed.

First up, and first to fall, was Safari 5.0.3 on fully-patched Mac OS X 10.6.6.


--LinkRemoved--

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Bill Cosby
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby Bill Cosby » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:53 pm

Connelly wrote:Also, a PSA: Learn how to use and maintain your computer. You are going to be spending a majority of your day as well as your working life on one, and there are many problems that you can avoid and/or fix by knowing a little bit about what you're doing. They are no longer magic boxes that only guys playing D&D in their mom's basement need to know how to fix; they are how you do business. Don't be the helpless person that's always looking for someone else to bail them out of a problem.


Amen.

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DeeCee
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby DeeCee » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:08 pm

AreJay711 wrote:I got my HP G61 for $400 + software and it is the best comp I've ever had. I think a lot of people buy way more computer than they actually need and it makes it less functional for them.


QFTruth. Besides my SO (who is a computer science geek) I've never seen a single person I know use their computer to the limit. If all you do is get on the internet and use a word processor, you can buy just about anything and it will be fine, granted you don't fuck it up by clicking links in spam emails or visit sketchy websites.

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haus
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby haus » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:03 am

cornellbeez wrote:Most people who buy Macs are just artsy fartsy hipsters who like how sleek they look. Aesthetically they are better looking, but most people who own them don't need such high-end, expensive machines. And fwiw, none of the comp engineers I know use Macs.

Plus, if you are going to be on the edboard of a journal, you're going to have use pcs at the law school to manage your articles. You might be more used to it if you usually use a pc than a mac.


I have been in the IT field sine the mid 1990's.

Many programmers, computer scientist, computer engineers, and they are particularly popular in my speciality InfoSec. I have no need to become more familiar with PCs, as I spend far to much of my time unscrewing Windows PC workstations and servers. Those around me using Macs simply take up less of my time then those who chose to use Windows.

If your time is worth nothing then yes, getting yourself a cheap system is likely your best option. Be sure to find a way to keep in the good graces of someone you can breath life into your system if you are not comfortable with your own ability to do so.

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haus
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby haus » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:05 am

DeeCee wrote:I've never seen a single person I know use their computer to the limit.


I have never seen someone use their car to the fullest on a regular basis going back and forth to work, this does not cause me to recommend a used Ford Escort as the goto vehicle for everyone who ask me which car they should consider buying.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby cornellbeez » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:19 am

haus wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Most people who buy Macs are just artsy fartsy hipsters who like how sleek they look. Aesthetically they are better looking, but most people who own them don't need such high-end, expensive machines. And fwiw, none of the comp engineers I know use Macs.

Plus, if you are going to be on the edboard of a journal, you're going to have use pcs at the law school to manage your articles. You might be more used to it if you usually use a pc than a mac.


I have been in the IT field sine the mid 1990's.

Many programmers, computer scientist, computer engineers, and they are particularly popular in my speciality InfoSec. I have no need to become more familiar with PCs, as I spend far to much of my time unscrewing Windows PC workstations and servers. Those around me using Macs simply take up less of my time then those who chose to use Windows.

If your time is worth nothing then yes, getting yourself a cheap system is likely your best option. Be sure to find a way to keep in the good graces of someone you can breath life into your system if you are not comfortable with your own ability to do so.


Ok. Well, my dad and brother are computer engineers. My dad (EECS) has been in the field for 40 years. My brother works for Microsoft. My dad and bro recommended that i get a cheap laptop because I am a "low-end" user. I have many friends who were EECS majors. None of them use macs. I've had some very minor issues in the past with cheap laptops, but nothing I couldn't fix on my own even though i'm not an engineer or IT person. (And if you are a computer noob, like I am, there are instructions online on how to fix stuff - For example, because of online instructions, I was able to use Linux to retrieve files on my hard drive after vista crashed. After that, I reinstalled vista and it worked fine. And this was probably the most serious issue I've ever had with a pc. Not to mention, I now use windows 7 which has much fewer problems than vista.) I usually back up my files on an external hard drive, too, just in case. Spending 400-500 bucks on a pc >>> spending 2k on a mac if you are a "light" user like me.
Last edited by cornellbeez on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:30 am, edited 5 times in total.

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kalvano
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby kalvano » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:22 am

Has anyone in this little debate bothered to mention that, in anything above a dirt-cheap PC, the parts used in a Mac and a PC are virtually identical?

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bk1
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:29 am

Did someone really necro this thread to post a shitty joke?

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haus
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby haus » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:30 am

cornellbeez wrote:My brother works for Microsoft.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby cornellbeez » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:31 am

haus wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:My brother works for Microsoft.


Fair point, just saying he's legit. My dad does not work for microsoft, and neither do my EECS friends. None of them use macs either. I just don't see why liberal arts majors going to law school should spend 2k on a mac when all you need is office and the internet.
Last edited by cornellbeez on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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haus
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby haus » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:34 am

kalvano wrote:Has anyone in this little debate bothered to mention that, in anything above a dirt-cheap PC, the parts used in a Mac and a PC are virtually identical?


Once you hit the mid-level, then the hardware is very similar at the component level. But software has a large impact on users experience.

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bk1
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:34 am

cornellbeez wrote:I just don't see why liberal arts majors going to law school should spend 2k on a freaking mac when all you need is office and the internet.


Cause it makes them feel cool. Why do people drink Grey Goose rather than Papov and buy name brand clothes rather than knockoffs?

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haus
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby haus » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:51 am

cornellbeez wrote:Fair point, just saying he's legit. My dad does not work for microsoft, and neither do my EECS friends who went to Stanford/MIT/Berkeley engineering. None of them use macs either. I just don't see why liberal arts majors going to law school should spend 2k on a mac when all you need is office and the internet.


I agree that 2k is more then most people need to spend. But the cost of entry for a Mac is not 2k. Especially, when student discount is taken into consideration.

The rotation rate on models for Mac's is slower than most other vendors which can be good or bad, some of the advantages is that should you need a system specific replacement, I have found it easier to acquire for Mac's than for other systems. For instance, 3 years ago I was on a road trip to Cambridge, MA and I made the bone head mistake of leaving my power supply for my laptop at the office, at the time my laptop was already three years old, and the model of my laptop (12" G4 Powerbook) has not been sold new for about two years. I was able to go over to the computer store at Harvard (in the basement of the science center) and was able to buy an exact replacement for my power supply. Could I have done something similar with a Dell, Compaq, Acer, MSN, IBM? Possible, but less likely, especially if I were shopping out of the bargain bin as these systems seem to depend cheaper non-standard components. Just for giggles I walked into an Apple store in the DC area last fall (near my home) and asked about a power supply for my G4 laptop (6 years old this May) and sure enough it was in stock, fortunately for me I did not need it.

Your friends may not use Mac or Linux, but I can guarantee that MS does not have a lock on the tech geeks at Stanford/MIT/Berkeley, from personal experience I can tell you that both Mac and Linux have a reasonable foot print at Harvard.

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DeeCee
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby DeeCee » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:20 am

haus wrote:
DeeCee wrote:I've never seen a single person I know use their computer to the limit.


I have never seen someone use their car to the fullest on a hregular basis going back and forth to work, this does not cause me to recommend a used Ford Escort as the goto vehicle for everyone who ask me which car they should consider buying.


Well like I said, you don't need all the bells and whistles if you'll never use them, doesn't make my line of reasoning any less valid. If it makes you feel special to buy line of the line software or if you'll actually use it, that's your deal. Macs have a cult following, and are a niche product. There is not a real need for these computers in law school over any other, so it comes down to personal preference and money. Personally I will never buy a Mac, it's too hyped up for what it is.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:21 am

bk1 wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:I just don't see why liberal arts majors going to law school should spend 2k on a freaking mac when all you need is office and the internet.


Cause it makes them feel cool. Why do people drink Grey Goose rather than Papov and buy name brand clothes rather than knockoffs?


Buying Mac makes you feel cool? Oh god...

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:25 am

FiveSermon wrote:Buying Mac makes you feel cool? Oh god...


Me? No, but other people like the aesthetic both in regards to software and actual design.

Are Macs cost effective? Of course not, but there's nothing wrong with buying one if you're okay with spending the money. Just like there's nothing wrong with shopping for clothes at Nordstroms/Macys instead of Walmart/Costco. If everything came down to utilitarianism all the time, we'd still be back in the stone age.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby cornellbeez » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:31 am

haus wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Fair point, just saying he's legit. My dad does not work for microsoft, and neither do my EECS friends who went to Stanford/MIT/Berkeley engineering. None of them use macs either. I just don't see why liberal arts majors going to law school should spend 2k on a mac when all you need is office and the internet.


I agree that 2k is more then most people need to spend. But the cost of entry for a Mac is not 2k. Especially, when student discount is taken into consideration.

The rotation rate on models for Mac's is slower than most other vendors which can be good or bad, some of the advantages is that should you need a system specific replacement, I have found it easier to acquire for Mac's than for other systems. For instance, 3 years ago I was on a road trip to Cambridge, MA and I made the bone head mistake of leaving my power supply for my laptop at the office, at the time my laptop was already three years old, and the model of my laptop (12" G4 Powerbook) has not been sold new for about two years. I was able to go over to the computer store at Harvard (in the basement of the science center) and was able to buy an exact replacement for my power supply. Could I have done something similar with a Dell, Compaq, Acer, MSN, IBM? Possible, but less likely, especially if I were shopping out of the bargain bin as these systems seem to depend cheaper non-standard components. Just for giggles I walked into an Apple store in the DC area last fall (near my home) and asked about a power supply for my G4 laptop (6 years old this May) and sure enough it was in stock, fortunately for me I did not need it.

Your friends may not use Mac or Linux, but I can guarantee that MS does not have a lock on the tech geeks at Stanford/MIT/Berkeley, from personal experience I can tell you that both Mac and Linux have a reasonable foot print at Harvard.


Re: power supply. I've used various pcs from the same brand over the years, and I've been able to use the same power supply for some newer models. Also, fwiw, you don't always have to buy directly from the manufacturer/brand. There are stores that import goods from abroad that sell substitute accessories for much much cheaper than the brand names do...you just have to know where to look. (When I lived in California you could easily find these stories. It depends on your area.) You might think it's shady, but a lot of the non-brand accessories imported from abroad are pretty much identical replicas, except sold for a fraction of the price. Again, if you are cheap (like I am, apparently, since I'm talking about free software, knock-off accessories, etc.), I think pc is the way to go.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:34 am

bk1 wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Buying Mac makes you feel cool? Oh god...


Me? No, but other people like the aesthetic both in regards to software and actual design.

Are Macs cost effective? Of course not, but there's nothing wrong with buying one if you're okay with spending the money. Just like there's nothing wrong with shopping for clothes at Nordstroms/Macys instead of Walmart/Costco. If everything came down to utilitarianism all the time, we'd still be back in the stone age.


I agree but it's important to note the difference in cost between buying ramen at Costcos and getting take out vs. paying $1000 extra for a shinier laptop. Cost benefit analysis won't matter if you have boatloads of cash lying around but it certainly matters.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby cornellbeez » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:39 am

Regarding the "coolness" factor of Macs - I admit, they are sleeker and do probably look "cooler" than pcs. People probably associate you with graphic design or something artsy fartsy if you use one. But is the coolness factor worth the cost? Not if you are a liberal arts major law student who doesn't really use computers for anything beyond taking notes and surfing the net. And your firm or government employer won't be using Macs, either.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:41 am

FiveSermon wrote:I agree but it's important to note the difference in cost between buying ramen at Costcos and getting take out vs. paying $1000 extra for a shinier laptop. Cost benefit analysis won't matter if you have boatloads of cash lying around but it certainly matters.


I think an extra 1000 is being extreme, more 300-500.

The thing is, the "if you have boatloads of money" argument only really matters if you aren't spending equivalent if not more money on other luxuries (e.g. nicer clothes, eating out more, having a smartphone, etc) and I think that students are easily spending more than that on luxuries. If a student feels like spending it on Mac versus a PC then that is a okay with me considering it is no different than the plenty of other things that students buy that they really don't technically need.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:43 am

cornellbeez wrote:Regarding the "coolness" factor of Macs - I admit, they are sleeker and do probably look "cooler" than pcs. People probably associate you with graphic design or something artsy fartsy if you use one. But is the coolness factor worth the cost? Not if you are a liberal arts major law student who doesn't really use computers for anything beyond taking notes and surfing the net. And your firm or government employer won't be using Macs, either.


Is eating out for lunch 1 extra time a week for a year worth it if you are a liberal arts major law student? What about going out and drinking a couple extra times a month for a year?

Students spend plenty of money on stuff they don't technically need and if someone chooses to spend $500 over 3 years for a laptop they prefer and another chooses to spend that money on the equivalent amount of beer over 3 years, who am I to say that one worse than the other?

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:47 am

bk1 wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:I agree but it's important to note the difference in cost between buying ramen at Costcos and getting take out vs. paying $1000 extra for a shinier laptop. Cost benefit analysis won't matter if you have boatloads of cash lying around but it certainly matters.


I think an extra 1000 is being extreme, more 300-500.

The thing is, the "if you have boatloads of money" argument only really matters if you aren't spending equivalent if not more money on other luxuries (e.g. nicer clothes, eating out more, having a smartphone, etc) and I think that students are easily spending more than that on luxuries. If a student feels like spending it on Mac versus a PC then that is a okay with me considering it is no different than the plenty of other things that students buy that they really don't technically need.


I agree students are easily spending more than they need to on luxuries (me included). I don't judge people because they do but I don't think trying to dissuade them from doing so in a single particular case is dumb or unwarranted.

You may be looking at this too black and white.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:55 am

FiveSermon wrote:I agree students are easily spending more than they need to on luxuries (me included). I don't judge people because they do but I don't think trying to dissuade them from doing so in a single particular case is dumb or unwarranted.

You may be looking at this too black and white.


Oh I agree with you that Macs aren't worth it and dissuade anybody who would purchase one.

I'm just playing devil's advocate and if somebody acknowledges that they are merely paying the extra money for the aesthetic differences then I won't try and argue with them.

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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby cornellbeez » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:56 am

bk1 wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:Regarding the "coolness" factor of Macs - I admit, they are sleeker and do probably look "cooler" than pcs. People probably associate you with graphic design or something artsy fartsy if you use one. But is the coolness factor worth the cost? Not if you are a liberal arts major law student who doesn't really use computers for anything beyond taking notes and surfing the net. And your firm or government employer won't be using Macs, either.


Is eating out for lunch 1 extra time a week for a year worth it if you are a liberal arts major law student? What about going out and drinking a couple extra times a month for a year?

Students spend plenty of money on stuff they don't technically need and if someone chooses to spend $500 over 3 years for a laptop they prefer and another chooses to spend that money on the equivalent amount of beer over 3 years, who am I to say that one worse than the other?


Someone is asking for advice in this thread, and people are providing it. I don't really care one way or the other. If you want me to elaborate, I can see how a rational consumer would value their utility from eating out (good, tasty food/social aspect) and drinking at or higher than the amount they pay, but I don't see how a mac user gets enough utility from using a mac when they are "low-end" users who don't get to use their computer to its full capacity anyway. They pretty much just use similar software as cheap pc users do in law school and the software functions just as well in both the mac and pc. Unless they derive a large amount of utility from using a "pretty" machine on a daily basis, it's hard for me to perceive how they can get the utility worth 1k when they are incapable of using a mac to its full potential in order to make it really worth the extra money. But who knows, maybe there are computer illiterate people out there who derive utility from using a prettier machine and value their utility at >1000. (In other words, "irrational" consumers haha).

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ResolutePear
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Re: Mac or PC?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:01 am

haus wrote:
cornellbeez wrote:PC. Cheaper (you can get a decent one for 1/3 of the price of a mac), more compatible with exam-taking software, and imo, easier to use. And fwiw, computer engineers use PCs, not macs. (Most of the engineers seem to invest in Sony Vaios, which are also expensive, but they need high-end pcs for work/gaming.) If you just need it for school, go with low-end, but still high quality, pcs.

Check out consumer reports if you are considering buying a pc though. That site helped me select a quality laptop for roughly 500 bucks. (I'm not a gamer so I didn't need a high-end Vaio.)

Plus, if you tend to download software online (cough), you're more likely to find software for pcs, not macs, and it will save you a ton of moolah. You can get a lot more free stuff online with a pc.

Also, I don't really get why people think Macs are more user-friendly...?


You can by a computer for 33% of the price of a Mac laptop, but it will likely not be a very good machine.

I assume that you are referring to pirated software. Much of the pirated software has been compromised to act as a Trojan, but if your idea of a good idea is to rip of those who make software for a living, I am not really that sad that your box is likely owned six ways from Sunday. When it comes to inexpensive software from small/independent shops there are is a strong eco system for the Mac.


This is by far the most retarded anybody has said on this forum this weekend.

Small/independent shops? They would be using a POS system based on Linux if they knew what they were doing.

Pirating is pirating, but there are other ways to get software for free anyways. Last time I checked, 2,000USD for a WASP/MAC license isn't "cheap," nor is anything from Adobe, FCP.. hell, Textmate - a goddamn text editor costs 40USD!

You're just as likely to get a "trojan" from other sources, Mac or Windows. So it's a moot point.




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