Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)

Is law school worth sticker to you?

Yes
297
60%
No
194
40%
 
Total votes: 491

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mrtoren
Posts: 733
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:43 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby mrtoren » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:20 pm

The panic and fear that ravages these forums is worse than a room full of day traders on Wall Street. Has the price of law school increased? Absolutely. Has the price of college gone up? Yes. Higher education is becoming more and more expensive. That's a reality we all have to deal with...I don't like it either. However, considering the relatively small number of scholarships handed out each year, is it realistic to say not to attend without that assistance? Even if the answer is yes, the fewer people attending, the proportionally fewer scholarships law schools would hand out. Over 40,000 J.D.s are handed out each year. The overwhelming majority of those grads didn't get scholarships. Most of them are still succeeding. Sure, the six figure jobs have become rarer, but lawyers are still making enough to pay off their loans and live a decent lifestyle. Too many people are chasing the big money...its a carrot on a stick they will never catch.

The bottom line is to use your head. Paying sticker at some T1's is a worse decision than paying sticker at certain TT's. Attending a TT with a scholarship is worse than paying sticker at some TTT's. Look at state schools instead of private schools. Research the market, see what the job and salary prospects are. Ask yourself if you have a passion for law or a desire for power, wealth, and flash. I find it very easy to pick out those who will succeed and those who will not. I don't want to deter those who will succeed from attending based on the fear of loans they can and will pay off in time.

acapulco980
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:52 am

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby acapulco980 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:39 am

Only if one wants to be a lawyer from passion, if one is looking to make the big bucks they are taking a huge risk.

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bk1
Posts: 18421
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby bk1 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:07 pm

mrtoren wrote:Over 40,000 J.D.s are handed out each year. The overwhelming majority of those grads didn't get scholarships. Most of them are still succeeding.


1/3 of them aren't landing legal jobs. Very many of them have debt levels that far exceed their starting salary. I find it questionable to say that most of them are succeeding, and by succeeding I mean finding a legal job that can pay back their debt level in a reasonable amount of time.

mrtoren wrote:I find it very easy to pick out those who will succeed and those who will not.


Shit, really?! Maybe I've met you before. Is this your picture?

--ImageRemoved--

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NiccoloA
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:46 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby NiccoloA » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:01 am

bk1 wrote:
mrtoren wrote:Over 40,000 J.D.s are handed out each year. The overwhelming majority of those grads didn't get scholarships. Most of them are still succeeding.


1/3 of them aren't landing legal jobs. Very many of them have debt levels that far exceed their starting salary. I find it questionable to say that most of them are succeeding, and by succeeding I mean finding a legal job that can pay back their debt level in a reasonable amount of time.

mrtoren wrote:I find it very easy to pick out those who will succeed and those who will not.


Shit, really?! Maybe I've met you before. Is this your picture?

--ImageRemoved--



I've seen this stated elsewhere. Are there really statistics about this? I'm willing to assume that half of those in "Business and Industry" are using their JD (even if it isn't required, how many times have you seen on a job post, "strong encouraged," which basically means if you don't have it and the otehr guy does, he's getting the job). So, whereas those aren't legal industry jobs, they are jobs that are more easily locked up with a JD.

I don't know what the unemployment rate is for graduates.

Academia seems like a very small number.


Depending on what the unemployment number is, I'd venture to say that actually, 4.xx of 5 get legal jobs or jobs that they would not have gotten without a legal degree.


My bigger concern is employment + compensation. If I'm only going to be making 35k out of a TT school, I made a financial mistake that I'll suffer with for the rest of my life - for however long that life continues after that.

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Naked Dude
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Naked Dude » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:08 am

Even from HYS I don't buy academia. What law school hires a tenure track J.D. straight out of law school? Even for non-tenure track positions like LRW adjuncts they want practitioners or people with work experience. I think it's people who wanted to remain students for whatever reason (riding out economy, getting MBA, etc).

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minnbills
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Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby minnbills » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:25 pm

Compliance and other corporate jobs right out of the gate aren't mentioned very often on here I've noticed.

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bk1
Posts: 18421
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby bk1 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:07 pm

NiccoloA wrote:I've seen this stated elsewhere. Are there really statistics about this? I'm willing to assume that half of those in "Business and Industry" are using their JD (even if it isn't required, how many times have you seen on a job post, "strong encouraged," which basically means if you don't have it and the otehr guy does, he's getting the job). So, whereas those aren't legal industry jobs, they are jobs that are more easily locked up with a JD.

I don't know what the unemployment rate is for graduates.

Academia seems like a very small number.


Depending on what the unemployment number is, I'd venture to say that actually, 4.xx of 5 get legal jobs or jobs that they would not have gotten without a legal degree.


My bigger concern is employment + compensation. If I'm only going to be making 35k out of a TT school, I made a financial mistake that I'll suffer with for the rest of my life - for however long that life continues after that.


Yes there really are statistics about it. Have you heard of this wonderful Google thing? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=number+of+new+lega ... +each+year

Which easily leads to a thread on TLS: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=138221

Which contains a handy link (on page 1 I might add) to the NLJ article discussing the number: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

And yes if you are taking a lot of money out and are going to a good enough school where the vast majority of kids get jobs then compensation should be a big deal to you.

Keep in mind that article is for 2008 graduates so things probably aren't that rosy anymore, but the main thing is that even if some of the "business" jobs (which in the article are 11% of JDs) actually have a strong preference for a JD that category includes Starbucks barista as well and since there are for more of those types of jobs then are businessJD jobs it is far more likely that the majority of "business" jobs is not the kind of jobs you are envisioning. Would a business really rather hire someone who went to law school for 3 years and didn't learn anything directly applicable to that business or would they rather hire someone who worked in a relevant field for 3 years? I think the answer is pretty obvious in most cases.

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NiccoloA
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:46 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby NiccoloA » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:42 pm

Let's have a mature and friendly conversation like future lawyers may have.

bk1 wrote:Yes there really are statistics about it. Have you heard of this wonderful Google thing? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=number+of+new+lega ... +each+year


OR

you can just be a dick...

Which easily leads to a thread on TLS: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=138221

Which contains a handy link (on page 1 I might add) to the NLJ article discussing the number: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

And yes if you are taking a lot of money out and are going to a good enough school where the vast majority of kids get jobs then compensation should be a big deal to you.

Keep in mind that article is for 2008 graduates so things probably aren't that rosy anymore, but the main thing is that even if some of the "business" jobs (which in the article are 11% of JDs) actually have a strong preference for a JD that category includes Starbucks barista as well and since there are for more of those types of jobs then are businessJD jobs it is far more likely that the majority of "business" jobs is not the kind of jobs you are envisioning. Would a business really rather hire someone who went to law school for 3 years and didn't learn anything directly applicable to that business or would they rather hire someone who worked in a relevant field for 3 years? I think the answer is pretty obvious in most cases.


I think that the "starbucks barista" thing is hyperbole.


Two arguments in what you're saying.

A. Most in businesses are retail.

B. Businesses hire 3 year JDs less than other candidates because a JD is useless to these businesses.


Do you mean that most businesses won't hire JDs or that most businesses will hire JDs, but the JD will be making minimum wage?


I told you that I'm willing to believe that at least half of the businesses that do hire JDs are not retail environments for high school kids, unless you have some evidence otherwise, I simply find it unrealistic to think that 11% of the class is in McDonalds or WalMart.


I see a lot of crying out against deceptive tactics used by law schools, but using hyperbole and characterizing law school as a fast track to Target stockman isn't honest either.


If you would agree that the majority of law graduates receive a career in the legal industry, then clearly most law students, if all they want is a law job all other things left unconsidered, are making a good decision.




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