Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)

Is law school worth sticker to you?

Yes
297
60%
No
194
40%
 
Total votes: 491

flcath
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby flcath » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:05 pm

Another big issue is that the kids who are the most likely to get screwed employment-wise are the same ones most likely to get screwed debt-wise.

A low LSAT score (relative to one's classmates) tends to produce both (a) a low scholarship, and (b) low grades. That's a particularly lethal combination, and yet another reason I tend to support going to the place that gives you big bucks.

bloobook
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.

Postby bloobook » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:06 pm

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Last edited by bloobook on Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Alex-Trof » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:07 pm

flcath wrote:Another big issue is that the kids who are the most likely to get screwed employment-wise are the same ones most likely to get screwed debt-wise.

A low LSAT score (relative to one's classmates) tends to produce both (a) a low scholarship, and (b) low grades. That's a particularly lethal combination, and yet another reason I tend to support going to the place that gives you big bucks.

+1

I would think those will be overly-represented among off-Waitlist and ED admits.

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Borhas
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Borhas » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:07 pm

Regional school in my region or T14 (except UT, and Cornell) worth sticker to me in a world w/ IBR

region: CA
secondary region: VA/MD/DC
Last edited by Borhas on Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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classix
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby classix » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:08 pm

flcath wrote:Another big issue is that the kids who are the most likely to get screwed employment-wise are the same ones most likely to get screwed debt-wise.

A low LSAT score (relative to one's classmates) tends to produce both (a) a low scholarship, and (b) low grades. That's a particularly lethal combination, and yet another reason I tend to support going to the place that gives you big bucks.



I totally agree.

I use this logic to dissuade lemmings from going to Cooley, Ave Maria, thomas jefferson etc when they say its the only place they get in.

When you pay full price, you are the bitch of the system: paying way more than your fair share so someone else can go to the same school FOR FREE and then take your job afterwards.

When you look at it like this, paying sticker really becomes a pride issue.

socraticmethodman
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby socraticmethodman » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:09 pm

Borhas wrote:Regional school in my region or T14 (except UT and Cornell) worth sticker to me in a world w/ IBR


+1, but I would probably pay sticker at UT if I wanted to work in Texas.

FiveSermon
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:09 pm

Borhas wrote:Regional school in my region or T14 (except UT, Northwestern, and Cornell) worth sticker to me in a world w/ IBR


Egregious pro UT and GTown trolling.

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Wholigan
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Wholigan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:15 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
sundance95 wrote:IIRC, they stay on as 'Of Counsel'. If they can.

ETA: Or they lateral. Although allegedly one should lateral around the 4-5 year mark, because if employers think you are jumping ship just because you won't make partner, it makes it more difficult to lateral.


I see. Thanks.

Is it difficult to lateral to an in house job?

Also how hard is it to stay on even if you don't make partner? Is it rare? Common?

As far as I have been reading the conventional wisdom on TLS is that you will be taking a severe pay cut after your first Big Law gig. So if, say, you lasted 3 years, still have 6-figure debt left to repay, and have to take a pay cut and continue living in NYC/DC/LA/SF, you may potentially be screwed. That is especially true if you're trying to start a family or need to maintain one.


I don't really agree with this. I believe that most biglaw firms will let you hang around for 5-6 years even if you aren't going to make partner. Midlevel associates are very important to the economics of a firm, so the only reason to only last 3 years is because you burn out or you suck at an epic level. Pay doesn't stay at $160k/whatever market is. You move up in lockstep (usually), and if you are in one of the markets you mentioned, you should be making in the range of $300k including bonus by years 5-6. You should be able to pay off all of your debt by then if you are smart and aren't using your pay on hookers and blow.

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Borhas
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Borhas » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:16 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
Borhas wrote:Regional school in my region or T14 (except UT, Northwestern, and Cornell) worth sticker to me in a world w/ IBR


Egregious pro UT and GTown trolling.


usually but here I was actually sincere

honestly I'd just rather live in DC than Ithaca or Chicago... I'd probably go to UT before NW or Cornell, but definitely before Cornell

If I wanted NYC Big Law I'd consider the 200k+ in debt for Cornell, but then again I think I would burn out in NYC Big Law before I could actually pay off my loans...

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AreJay711
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:16 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
Borhas wrote:Regional school in my region or T14 (except UT, Northwestern, and Cornell) worth sticker to me in a world w/ IBR


Egregious pro UT and GTown trolling.

:lol: Indeed

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beachbum
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby beachbum » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:22 pm

Beachbum's guide to sticker success:

1) Kick ass and take names at T14 (*T13, LOL GULC)
2) Marry significant other with reasonably well-paying job (during or right after law school)
3) Biglaw (transactional) for 3-5 years. Avoid major luxury purchases during this time.
4) Transfer in-house, salary ~$100k
5) ????
6) Profit.

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Alex-Trof » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:23 pm

Wholigan wrote:
I don't really agree with this. I believe that most biglaw firms will let you hang around for 5-6 years even if you aren't going to make partner. Midlevel associates are very important to the economics of a firm, so the only reason to only last 3 years is because you burn out or you suck at an epic level. Pay doesn't stay at $160k/whatever market is. You move up in lockstep (usually), and if you are in one of the markets you mentioned, you should be making in the range of $300k including bonus by years 5-6. You should be able to pay off all of your debt by then if you are smart and aren't using your pay on hookers and blow.


You could be right. However, there are two big assumptions that need to be made for this to work:

1. You will do well in school to get Big Law
2. You will last 5-6 years in Big Law

I don't have all the numbers (pure speculation), but I think the odds are against you when you go to law school, even t14, at a sticker.

FiveSermon
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:24 pm

beachbum wrote:Beachbum's guide to sticker success:

1) Kick ass and take names at T14 (*T13, LOL GULC)
2) Marry significant other with reasonably well-paying job (during or right after law school)
3) Biglaw (transactional) for 3-5 years. Avoid major luxury purchases during this time.
4) Transfer in-house, salary ~$100k
5) ????
6) Profit.


Or the alternative

1) T13 at sticker
2) Graduate below median
3) Hang yourself

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Borhas
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Borhas » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:26 pm

beachbum wrote:Beachbum's guide to sticker success:

1) Kick ass and take names at T14 (*T13, LOL GULC)
2) Marry significant other with reasonably well-paying job (during or right after law school)
3) Biglaw (transactional) for 3-5 years. Avoid major luxury purchases during this time.
4) Transfer in-house, salary ~$100k
5) ????
6) Profit.


know several people who did this

they are on #7 or #8 (house + kids + random lame hobby in spare time)

it's the American dream

not much longer till #9 (divorce) then #10 (re-marriage w/ younger woman)

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beachbum
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby beachbum » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:30 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:Beachbum's guide to sticker success:

1) Kick ass and take names at T14 (*T13, LOL GULC)
2) Marry significant other with reasonably well-paying job (during or right after law school)
3) Biglaw (transactional) for 3-5 years. Avoid major luxury purchases during this time.
4) Transfer in-house, salary ~$100k
5) ????
6) Profit.


Or the alternative

1) T13 at sticker
2) Graduate below median
3) Hang yourself


haha, or that. Either way you're debt-free!

But seriously, what I posted is pretty much my plan now. I'm not attending at full sticker (total debt probably $160-175k), and hopefully I'll be able to follow the plan while maintaining at least some financial discipline. Will let you all know how it goes in 5-10 years.

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AreJay711
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:34 pm

beachbum wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:Beachbum's guide to sticker success:

1) Kick ass and take names at T14 (*T13, LOL GULC)
2) Marry significant other with reasonably well-paying job (during or right after law school)
3) Biglaw (transactional) for 3-5 years. Avoid major luxury purchases during this time.
4) Transfer in-house, salary ~$100k
5) ????
6) Profit.


Or the alternative

1) T13 at sticker
2) Graduate below median
3) Hang yourself


haha, or that. Either way you're debt-free!

But seriously, what I posted is pretty much my plan now. I'm not attending at full sticker (total debt probably $160-175k), and hopefully I'll be able to follow the plan while maintaining at least some financial discipline. Will let you all know how it goes in 5-10 years.

Hanging yourself is a bad plan. You need to fake your death and make it look like an accident so you can take out a hefty life insurance policy so you can party up in Mexico afterwards.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:38 pm

beachbum wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:Beachbum's guide to sticker success:

1) Kick ass and take names at T14 (*T13, LOL GULC)
2) Marry significant other with reasonably well-paying job (during or right after law school)
3) Biglaw (transactional) for 3-5 years. Avoid major luxury purchases during this time.
4) Transfer in-house, salary ~$100k
5) ????
6) Profit.


Or the alternative

1) T13 at sticker
2) Graduate below median
3) Hang yourself


haha, or that. Either way you're debt-free!

But seriously, what I posted is pretty much my plan now. I'm not attending at full sticker (total debt probably $160-175k), and hopefully I'll be able to follow the plan while maintaining at least some financial discipline. Will let you all know how it goes in 5-10 years.


I don't know if I can trust you, your housing suggestions have not worked out for me so far.

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beachbum
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby beachbum » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:40 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
beachbum wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:Beachbum's guide to sticker success:

1) Kick ass and take names at T14 (*T13, LOL GULC)
2) Marry significant other with reasonably well-paying job (during or right after law school)
3) Biglaw (transactional) for 3-5 years. Avoid major luxury purchases during this time.
4) Transfer in-house, salary ~$100k
5) ????
6) Profit.


Or the alternative

1) T13 at sticker
2) Graduate below median
3) Hang yourself


haha, or that. Either way you're debt-free!

But seriously, what I posted is pretty much my plan now. I'm not attending at full sticker (total debt probably $160-175k), and hopefully I'll be able to follow the plan while maintaining at least some financial discipline. Will let you all know how it goes in 5-10 years.


I don't know if I can trust you, your housing suggestions have not worked out for me so far.


?? What happened? (PM?)

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:44 pm

flcath wrote:Another big issue is that the kids who are the most likely to get screwed employment-wise are the same ones most likely to get screwed debt-wise.

A low LSAT score (relative to one's classmates) tends to produce both (a) a low scholarship, and (b) low grades. That's a particularly lethal combination, and yet another reason I tend to support going to the place that gives you big bucks.


Dude, splitters are abound paying sticker at the t13. There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that many splitters that post on this site have done well. I don't think splitters are automatically going to finish at the end of the curve because they are competing with sociology majors who got a 3.8.

EDIT: I know you mentioned LSAT score, but I'm countering the point that folks paying sticker are subsidizing people that will outperform them.

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stratocophic
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby stratocophic » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:50 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:
flcath wrote:Another big issue is that the kids who are the most likely to get screwed employment-wise are the same ones most likely to get screwed debt-wise.

A low LSAT score (relative to one's classmates) tends to produce both (a) a low scholarship, and (b) low grades. That's a particularly lethal combination, and yet another reason I tend to support going to the place that gives you big bucks.


Dude, splitters are abound paying sticker at the t13. There is quite a bit of anecdotal evidence that many splitters that post on this site have done well. I don't think splitters are automatically going to finish at the end of the curve because they are competing with sociology majors who got a 3.8.

EDIT: I know you mentioned LSAT score, but I'm countering the point that folks paying sticker are subsidizing people that will outperform them.
Just a difference in perspective. From T25land, splitters get heavily subsidized for tearing it up, while WLers get in late w/ worse numbers. At T14s, splitters are usually at full price.

Depends on which tier you end up in.

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LettuceBeefRealTea
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby LettuceBeefRealTea » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:50 pm

there are a lot of signs of serious inflation starting from the FED's QE. over the next couple of years, putting that cash into a law degree might be one of the best ways of "storing value" in that it is an investment in future earnings as high levels of inflation eat away at your pool of debt. there is speculation that the value of the dollar will be cut in half over the next 5 years. there is a lot of literature being published on this right now, but you can see it if you compare how much food you can buy with $200 now vs. 6 months ago. then again, wages always hang years behind inflation, so your real cost of living is going to hurt those returns. this is why the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. this under the table inflation doesn't get put into newspapers. it is a form of a tax break for corporations and investors while people with no financial knowledge get functionally taxed to inflate our debt away. people on fixed incomes have no way to adapt. such a fucked up world. anyways, its an awesome situation to be taking on debt in.

or buy $200k of physical holdings or gold/silver/oil/food futures contracts.
Last edited by LettuceBeefRealTea on Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:53 pm

LettuceBeefRealTea wrote:there are a lot of signs of serious inflation starting from the FED's QE. over the next couple of years, putting that cash into a law degree might be one of the best ways of "storing value" in that it is an investment in future earnings as high levels of inflation eat away at your pool of debt. there is speculation that the value of the dollar will be cut in half over the next 5 years. there is a lot of literature being published on this right now, but you can see it if you compare how much food you can buy with $200 now vs. 6 months ago. then again, wages always hang years behind inflation, so your real cost of living is going to hurt those returns. this is why the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. this under the table inflation doesn't get put into newspapers. it is a form of a tax break for corporations and investors while people with no financial knowledge get functionally taxed to inflate our debt away. people on fixed incomes have no way to adapt. such a fucked up world. anyways, its an awesome situation to be taking on debt in.

or buy $200k of physical holdings or leveraged gold/silver/food futures contracts.

50% inflation in five years? Bro, you need to stop watching beck.

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romothesavior
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:57 pm

One other thing to keep in mind is that even if you are lucky enough to land biglaw, you may very well HATE biglaw. Or you could get no-offered, deferred, or laid off quickly. And if you hate it, you will thank your lucky stars that you have low debt. Having 200k in debt not only hinders your life in financial ways, it also is very limiting in your career path.

Go talk to some attorneys and ask them if they think 220k in debt is worth it. My guess is the answer will be an overwhelming no.

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AreJay711
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Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:58 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
LettuceBeefRealTea wrote:there are a lot of signs of serious inflation starting from the FED's QE. over the next couple of years, putting that cash into a law degree might be one of the best ways of "storing value" in that it is an investment in future earnings as high levels of inflation eat away at your pool of debt. there is speculation that the value of the dollar will be cut in half over the next 5 years. there is a lot of literature being published on this right now, but you can see it if you compare how much food you can buy with $200 now vs. 6 months ago. then again, wages always hang years behind inflation, so your real cost of living is going to hurt those returns. this is why the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. this under the table inflation doesn't get put into newspapers. it is a form of a tax break for corporations and investors while people with no financial knowledge get functionally taxed to inflate our debt away. people on fixed incomes have no way to adapt. such a fucked up world. anyways, its an awesome situation to be taking on debt in.

or buy $200k of physical holdings or leveraged gold/silver/food futures contracts.

50% inflation in five years? Bro, you need to stop watching beck.


This would make me so freaking happy. Hopefully it won't start for 3 years though; I just requested the Plus loan for 3 semesters and it was redic already.

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Stringer Bell
Posts: 1924
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:02 pm

romothesavior wrote:Go talk to some attorneys and ask them if they think 220k in debt is worth it. My guess is the answer will be an overwhelming no.


I really haven't run into this. The one's I know that are really succesful and somewhat in tune with the current hiring environment (obvious selection bias here though) have said that sticker at a t12 makes much more sense than taking a scholly at a lower ranked school.




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