Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

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Is law school worth sticker to you?

Yes
297
60%
No
194
40%
 
Total votes: 491

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gbpackerbacker
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby gbpackerbacker » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:42 pm

dakatz wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:I'd only pay sticker for a T14.


I wouldn't even pay sticker for a T10 school. 200K in debt simply does not compute in my mental calculator. I knew I wanted to graduate will little to no debt and still go to a good school. I was all about finding a balance, not going to either extreme.

FiveSermon
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:39 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
farszandian wrote:anyone who says it's not worth it to pay sticker at a t14 is a complete moron. do you people seriously think that all the happy, successful lawyers out there are harvard, yale, stanford grads who didn't pay a cent for their education? have you ever met a lawyer? odds are he didn't graduate from a t14 and he's still paying back his loans. did he wish he wasn't paying back loans? of course. is he living on the streets, dodging creditors, contemplating suicide in a post-apocalyptic... err post-grad world? of course not.

a major problem with these boards -- probably the biggest problem actually -- is this idiotic, elitist perpetuation of the idea that if you're not getting at least a half scholly from a t14 you'd be an idiot to even briefly consider going to law school. it's a problem cause you have impressionable kids reading this stuff who are liable to get swayed by such a pervasive opinion, likely the most pervasive and prominent of any of the major collective opinions on these boards. and it's absolute conjecture.
if you want to be a lawyer-- if you truly want to be a lawyer for the right reasons, you should go to law school regardless of the impending debt. anyone who tells you otherwise either has no idea what they're talking about or wants to be a lawyer for the wrong reasons.
I like that you use the term impressionable kids as you flippantly and immaturely disregard mountains of debt that has crippled lives.

ETA in no world is gtown worth full coa.


T13*

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beachbum
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby beachbum » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:49 pm

romothesavior wrote:I really want to be a professional baseball player, but I wouldn't spend $200,000 and three years trying out for the Cardinals right now.


Outed as having not watched the Cardinals this season.

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romothesavior
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:53 pm

beachbum wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I really want to be a professional baseball player, but I wouldn't spend $200,000 and three years trying out for the Cardinals right now.


Outed as having not watched the Cardinals this season.

Was at the game yesterday, and it sucked. Not having Waino is going to be brutal, but Garcia looks like he hasn't lost a step since last year. He looked awesome today.

Still, it's a long season.

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beachbum
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby beachbum » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:02 pm

romothesavior wrote:
beachbum wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I really want to be a professional baseball player, but I wouldn't spend $200,000 and three years trying out for the Cardinals right now.


Outed as having not watched the Cardinals this season.

Was at the game yesterday, and it sucked. Not having Waino is going to be brutal, but Garcia looks like he hasn't lost a step since last year. He looked awesome today.

Still, it's a long season.


Yeah, Garcia looked fantastic today- and after a brutal spring, too. But I just can't see this team doing well, not after losing our ace and failing to upgrade the depth chart. We're counting too much on our starters to stay healthy and productive, and we're counting far too much on Berkman to add a bat to this lineup. But, yeah, it's a long season and anything can happen...

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Alex-Trof » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:14 pm

farszandian wrote:anyone who says it's not worth it to pay sticker at a t14 is a complete moron. do you people seriously think that all the happy, successful lawyers out there are harvard, yale, stanford grads who didn't pay a cent for their education? have you ever met a lawyer? odds are he didn't graduate from a t14 and he's still paying back his loans. did he wish he wasn't paying back loans? of course. is he living on the streets, dodging creditors, contemplating suicide in a post-apocalyptic... err post-grad world? of course not.

a major problem with these boards -- probably the biggest problem actually -- is this idiotic, elitist perpetuation of the idea that if you're not getting at least a half scholly from a t14 you'd be an idiot to even briefly consider going to law school. it's a problem cause you have impressionable kids reading this stuff who are liable to get swayed by such a pervasive opinion, likely the most pervasive and prominent of any of the major collective opinions on these boards. and it's absolute conjecture.

if you want to be a lawyer-- if you truly want to be a lawyer for the right reasons, you should go to law school regardless of the impending debt. anyone who tells you otherwise either has no idea what they're talking about or wants to be a lawyer for the wrong reasons.


I am a guy that is strongly considering "No Law School" over paying sticker at T10. Does that mean I am a moron? Look, dude, 20 years ago law school was much cheaper, had fever people attending it, and provided many more career opportunities. Right now the value of JD even from the top school is < then what it used to be. IMO, its future looks even bleaker.

I admit, I am interested in corporate law, specifically securities and M&As. But knowing that I only have about 50% chance of securing that job, would have to work 80-hour weeks, have 20% chance of making a partner and paying off my debts before I have to do something that pays much less than Big Law scares me. Adding COLs for NYC to this equation, would mean that I wouldn't even be able to live a good life on 160K while in Big Law.

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby bartleby » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:24 pm

I'd pay sticker for T13 + UCLA and USC.

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby firemed » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:48 pm

Everything Romo said is TCR... even the stuff about the Cardinals. Man I wish I could go to Busch Stadium.

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Non-Chalant1 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:41 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
farszandian wrote:anyone who says it's not worth it to pay sticker at a t14 is a complete moron. do you people seriously think that all the happy, successful lawyers out there are harvard, yale, stanford grads who didn't pay a cent for their education? have you ever met a lawyer? odds are he didn't graduate from a t14 and he's still paying back his loans. did he wish he wasn't paying back loans? of course. is he living on the streets, dodging creditors, contemplating suicide in a post-apocalyptic... err post-grad world? of course not.

a major problem with these boards -- probably the biggest problem actually -- is this idiotic, elitist perpetuation of the idea that if you're not getting at least a half scholly from a t14 you'd be an idiot to even briefly consider going to law school. it's a problem cause you have impressionable kids reading this stuff who are liable to get swayed by such a pervasive opinion, likely the most pervasive and prominent of any of the major collective opinions on these boards. and it's absolute conjecture.

if you want to be a lawyer-- if you truly want to be a lawyer for the right reasons, you should go to law school regardless of the impending debt. anyone who tells you otherwise either has no idea what they're talking about or wants to be a lawyer for the wrong reasons.


I am a guy that is strongly considering "No Law School" over paying sticker at T10. Does that mean I am a moron? Look, dude, 20 years ago law school was much cheaper, had fever people attending it, and provided many more career opportunities. Right now the value of JD even from the top school is < then what it used to be. IMO, its future looks even bleaker.

I admit, I am interested in corporate law, specifically securities and M&As. But knowing that I only have about 50% chance of securing that job, would have to work 80-hour weeks, have 20% chance of making a partner and paying off my debts before I have to do something that pays much less than Big Law scares me. Adding COLs for NYC to this equation, would mean that I wouldn't even be able to live a good life on 160K while in Big Law.

This was a bit too dramatic. If you can't live well on 160K...that says a lot about you.

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zreinhar
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby zreinhar » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:47 pm

There is a very strong chance I will be paying sticker for GMU, alebit paying up front. Fortunately no loans, but I really dont want to shell out over 100K for GMU. Hopefull the WL play out and I get in somewhere else...

February LSAT = WL Hell

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:47 pm

Non-Chalant1 wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:
farszandian wrote:anyone who says it's not worth it to pay sticker at a t14 is a complete moron. do you people seriously think that all the happy, successful lawyers out there are harvard, yale, stanford grads who didn't pay a cent for their education? have you ever met a lawyer? odds are he didn't graduate from a t14 and he's still paying back his loans. did he wish he wasn't paying back loans? of course. is he living on the streets, dodging creditors, contemplating suicide in a post-apocalyptic... err post-grad world? of course not.

a major problem with these boards -- probably the biggest problem actually -- is this idiotic, elitist perpetuation of the idea that if you're not getting at least a half scholly from a t14 you'd be an idiot to even briefly consider going to law school. it's a problem cause you have impressionable kids reading this stuff who are liable to get swayed by such a pervasive opinion, likely the most pervasive and prominent of any of the major collective opinions on these boards. and it's absolute conjecture.

if you want to be a lawyer-- if you truly want to be a lawyer for the right reasons, you should go to law school regardless of the impending debt. anyone who tells you otherwise either has no idea what they're talking about or wants to be a lawyer for the wrong reasons.


I am a guy that is strongly considering "No Law School" over paying sticker at T10. Does that mean I am a moron? Look, dude, 20 years ago law school was much cheaper, had fever people attending it, and provided many more career opportunities. Right now the value of JD even from the top school is < then what it used to be. IMO, its future looks even bleaker.

I admit, I am interested in corporate law, specifically securities and M&As. But knowing that I only have about 50% chance of securing that job, would have to work 80-hour weeks, have 20% chance of making a partner and paying off my debts before I have to do something that pays much less than Big Law scares me. Adding COLs for NYC to this equation, would mean that I wouldn't even be able to live a good life on 160K while in Big Law.

This was a bit too dramatic. If you can't live well on 160K...that says a lot about you.


actually, look at some of the posts by other current NYC biglaw associates making 160k. Of course they can get by paying down debt and living in an eh place, but 160k in NYC with a large debt != "living the good life"

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby rundoxierun » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:52 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Non-Chalant1 wrote:This was a bit too dramatic. If you can't live well on 160K...that says a lot about you.


actually, look at some of the posts by other current NYC biglaw associates making 160k. Of course they can get by paying down debt and living in an eh place, but 160k in NYC with a large debt != "living the good life"


Yeah this is one of those situations where the problem is one's definition of "good life". For me, 72k post tax/loans is a good life even in nyc with a 2k/month apartment.
Last edited by rundoxierun on Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:54 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Non-Chalant1 wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:
farszandian wrote:anyone who says it's not worth it to pay sticker at a t14 is a complete moron. do you people seriously think that all the happy, successful lawyers out there are harvard, yale, stanford grads who didn't pay a cent for their education? have you ever met a lawyer? odds are he didn't graduate from a t14 and he's still paying back his loans. did he wish he wasn't paying back loans? of course. is he living on the streets, dodging creditors, contemplating suicide in a post-apocalyptic... err post-grad world? of course not.

a major problem with these boards -- probably the biggest problem actually -- is this idiotic, elitist perpetuation of the idea that if you're not getting at least a half scholly from a t14 you'd be an idiot to even briefly consider going to law school. it's a problem cause you have impressionable kids reading this stuff who are liable to get swayed by such a pervasive opinion, likely the most pervasive and prominent of any of the major collective opinions on these boards. and it's absolute conjecture.

if you want to be a lawyer-- if you truly want to be a lawyer for the right reasons, you should go to law school regardless of the impending debt. anyone who tells you otherwise either has no idea what they're talking about or wants to be a lawyer for the wrong reasons.


I am a guy that is strongly considering "No Law School" over paying sticker at T10. Does that mean I am a moron? Look, dude, 20 years ago law school was much cheaper, had fever people attending it, and provided many more career opportunities. Right now the value of JD even from the top school is < then what it used to be. IMO, its future looks even bleaker.

I admit, I am interested in corporate law, specifically securities and M&As. But knowing that I only have about 50% chance of securing that job, would have to work 80-hour weeks, have 20% chance of making a partner and paying off my debts before I have to do something that pays much less than Big Law scares me. Adding COLs for NYC to this equation, would mean that I wouldn't even be able to live a good life on 160K while in Big Law.

This was a bit too dramatic. If you can't live well on 160K...that says a lot about you.


actually, look at some of the posts by other current NYC biglaw associates making 160k. Of course they can get by paying down debt and living in an eh place, but 160k in NYC with a large debt != "living the good life"


You might not be rolling in cash but you will be living comfortably.

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:55 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:actually, look at some of the posts by other current NYC biglaw associates making 160k. Of course they can get by paying down debt and living in an eh place, but 160k in NYC with a large debt != "living the good life"


I'd say it isn't that bad since you have around $50k to live off of after taxes/repayments (assuming 10 year plan). Sure, it isn't "the good life," but it is a far better life than most other people, and gets better with bonuses and lockstep raises. Though, this is not commenting on the quality of life, or lack thereof, that is biglaw.

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Alex-Trof » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:56 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Non-Chalant1 wrote:This was a bit too dramatic. If you can't live well on 160K...that says a lot about you.


actually, look at some of the posts by other current NYC biglaw associates making 160k. Of course they can get by paying down debt and living in an eh place, but 160k in NYC with a large debt != "living the good life"


Yeah this is one of those situations where the problem is one's definition of "good life". For me, 72k post tax/loans is a good life even in nyc with a 2k/month apartment.


I am currently making over 50K in Phoenix with 9-5 job. 72K in NYC will be a dip for me especially if I work twice as much. Besides what happens if I end up leaving Big Law after 2-3 years and still have over 100K to pay off?

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:06 pm

I think tk hit the nail on the head when he said this depends on a person's definition of "the good life" -- when I hear that phrase, I think at least upper middle class living style. Or at least something far away from my ugrad/grad days lol. Of course a lot of people get by on less, of course etc. etc., that isn't really my point lol. Something around $30-40k post tax/loans/housing in NYC blows by quick because of how expensive everything is...and iunno if the trade off is necessarily great considering what biglaw life is like.

I know people buy into it also because of the potential for a much larger upside half a decade or a decade later, but I'm just saying that for a lot of people, the first few yrs of NYC biglaw won't be as amazing as they think haha (financially speaking).

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:09 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:the first few yrs of NYC biglaw won't be as amazing as they think haha (financially speaking).


I don't think most of TLS actually thinks that NYC biglaw is financially "amazing" after taking into account $200,000+ worth of debt. I could be wrong though.

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:10 pm

bk1 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:the first few yrs of NYC biglaw won't be as amazing as they think haha (financially speaking).


I don't think most of TLS actually thinks that NYC biglaw is financially "amazing" after taking into account $200,000+ worth of debt. I could be wrong though.


lol some of the people in threads i've seen...and of course, a lot of this im getting from this post:


alumniguy wrote:Certainly can elaborate - I don't have my pay stubs in front of me though so it isn't going to be as accurate as I'd like. First, the majority of NYC firms give a salary advance prior to your start date (range is probably 5k to 15k) and once you start you pay it back - and it comes out of your after tax income. For me, I need the salary advance to live between graduation and my start date (for example, when you rent your apartment you'll need first, last and security deposit - that is some hefty change). Second, yes I do pretty much max out my 401k (in my opinion, you'd be dumb not to especially at the tax bracket you'll be in).

For the record, I went to school in Boston and lived on about $8-10k in post-housing discretionary spending. So yes, I understand how to be frugal.

OK on to the budget/repayment - yes I had approximately $84k after taxes. 48k of that was minimum loan payment and rent (my rent was actually $2100 and that doesn't include cable/internet or electricity - probably another $200 each month on average, but I won't include that in what I am paying in the above calculation). So now were down to $36k. You suggest that I live on 20k discretionary spending or $1,666.66 per month or $416 per week. I would agree that in the abstract this seems like a ton of cash. Yet, it really isn't and I couldn't do it. Although admittedly, I am NOT a budgeter - never have been and hopefully never will need to be. I simply live the way I live - I am not a penny pincher nor a spendthrift. I have a good sense of living within my means. On to the spending of the money:

1. Working in biglaw requires a business/business casual wardrobe. For me, that included a new suit (and no, not some $250 JCPenney suit because well, they look cheap and to be honest most associates wear nicer clothes and you'll want to look the look when you get to your firm), several new pairs of pants, new dress shirts, new shoes, etc... This wardrobe isn't cheap. No, I wasn't blowing my money on $1k suits, I paid $500. My shirts were all bought on clearance at Bloomingdales for about $50 each. My shoes (3 pairs) I got from discount websites at about $125 each. So there goes some of that discretionary spending. How about dry cleaning? $2 a shirt, $7 for pants. Sure you could launder and iron yourself, but when you're working until 9:30/10:00pm most nights, you'll quickly realize that you're not spending your free time in front of an ironing board. Also, your clothes expenditures, while they do decrease, you need to continually add to your wardrobe - shoes wear out, you decided you need more than just one suit, etc...

2. What about your apartment? For me, that required purchasing furniture. Sure, I could have searched craigslist for cheap furniture (I did get my bed frame for $200 bucks off there, plus a $35 cab ride) but I simply decided that I am no longer a college student. At some point I would think you're done with the futon and folding tables. For me, that was when I started my career. So conservatively lets say you spend $3k on new furniture (bed, book shelves, couch, television, dining table, chairs, etc.) For me, I've purchased a few nice items and lot of Ikea stuff. My goal is to replace the Ikea stuff by purchasing one nice piece of furniture a year. Last year it was a nice couch/sectional that was about $2500. This year, I am not sure...

3. Food/Entertainment: I eat out everyday for lunch. Yes, I could make my own lunch, but see ironing shirt issue above (I don't like making lunch and don't want to spend the time grocery shopping and preparing). So, I spend about $10 a day on lunch (although to be fair, my firm has a number of free lunch days were you have team meetings, CLEs, etc... so in all actuality, it probably averaged out to about 4 days of buying lunch a year). Weekday dinner - when not eating at the firm on the client, is about $15 for me. Again, I don't cook. Going out to dinner with friends, easily $50-$100 a pop. Going to bars is also expensive. Dating is expensive. NYC if just freaking expensive. People who don't live here just don't understand. Movie tickets $15. Museum tickets $10-$20. Broadway shows $50-$150. I'm not doing this stuff every night, but it adds up. Newspaper subscriptions, etc.

4. Vacations/Travel: I presume that you'll be going on vacations. I used all 4 weeks of vacations at my firm and pretty much every other associate does as well. Vacations are expensive. Skiing vacations $1k-$2k for a week. Trips home at the holidays to see family ($750 - $1.5k) for a week. Getting the picture? Sure, I don't HAVE to spend so much on vacations, but when you're overworked you'll likely want to go somewhere nice.

5. Other incidentals: wedding gifts, birthday and christmas gifts, etc. Again, when I was in college, I never bought these gifts because everyone knew I didn't have any money. Once you start making $160k, the "I'm poor" line seems to ring a little bit hollow. So you're going to spending money on this, for me, it was probably $1k total.

So yea, 20k discretionary seems like a lot, but here it isn't getting you anything. I have no idea how much I actually spent - probably more like 25-30k. At the end of my first year I paid off about $20k extra in loans and still had about $10k in my checking account. After my second year (I maxed out my 401k that year) I paid down closer to $30k of my loans and still have about $10k in my checking and about $10k in a rainy day savings account. If you ask me, I think I am being pretty aggressive on the early pay down compared to the few other junior associates I've talked to.


Also, salary increases/bonuses. Stub year, I got 5k, 1st year I got 7.5k, 2nd year I got 10k. Also, got 10 k salary bump my second year, 15k more my third year (my current year). This isn't 50-60k pretax, it is 30k pretax, or about 15k after tax. I do have a spring bonus coming of $10k, which I'm using to pay down more debt.

So $40k a year in debt paydown is REALLY, REALLY aggressive. I couldn't have done it. I'm not saying it isn't possible (but I would be skeptical), but in my opinion it isn't realistic. As a third year (likely $205k gross), I think $40 is a likely possibility, but certainly not as a first year making $167.5k.

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bk1
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:12 pm

I actually think alumniguy makes sense in that you won't want to live meagerly.

I think that is probably one my of my most unrealistic estimations of aggressively paying down debt, how willing I would be to live on less money.

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Stonewall
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Stonewall » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:12 pm

t6 at sticker, the rest only with a substancial scholarship (atleast 30%) IMHO

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Alex-Trof
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Alex-Trof » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:21 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:

alumniguy wrote:Personal experience


So it looks like you might be able to pay off around 100K doing Big Law, but what to do with the rest when you're paying sticker and no longer making 160K and still living in NYC.

Another thing. Those calculations assume living along but what if you wanna have a family?

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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:56 pm

bk1 wrote:I actually think alumniguy makes sense in that you won't want to live meagerly.

I think that is probably one my of my most unrealistic estimations of aggressively paying down debt, how willing I would be to live on less money.

Also, quite a few of his expenses seem to be one time type of things. He bought a whole new wardrobe which he wouldn't need to do the next year, same with the furniture. Some of these things people will have accumulated over time. It looks like he is living great and I wouldn't consider that an awesome life. Personally, I didn't expect to see him say he took 8k worth of vacation time his first year. That is a lot of money as well that i'm sure some people will save.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:56 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
bk1 wrote:I actually think alumniguy makes sense in that you won't want to live meagerly.

I think that is probably one my of my most unrealistic estimations of aggressively paying down debt, how willing I would be to live on less money.

Also, quite a few of his expenses seem to be one time type of things. He bought a whole new wardrobe which he wouldn't need to do the next year, same with the furniture. Some of these things people will have accumulated over time. It looks like he is living great and I wouldn't consider that an awesome life. Personally, I didn't expect to see him say he took 8k worth of vacation time his first year. That is a lot of money as well that i'm sure some people will save.


well yeah but you can just shift the vacation savings into checkings (which i personally would like to bolster in that situation). he did mention the fact that wardrobe and furniture were actually more semi-rolling expenses as things wear out decently quickly, you realize you need more than just 2 pairs of suits lol, and he tries to replace one IKEA item in his apt with a piece of "real furniture" a year to no longer be living like a college student haha.

the bolded comment you made kind of confuses me in what you're actually trying to say.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby BioEBear2010 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:17 am

I'm surprised so many people would NEVER pay sticker, as there should really be no fear of debt at any of the T6 (and probably most/all of the T14). The large majority of law students work either for a BigLaw firm or a PI/Government group after graduation. At these schools, there really isn't much risk in not finding a job, especially now that the economy is picking up. BigLaw earns roughly 160K in most major markets, which would allow a student to pay of any loans rather comfortably. I believe all of the T6 schools have a LRAP program which will significantly help pay off debt if the student pursues PI/Gov't.

But maybe I'm underestimating the riskiness of attending a T6 (or I'm inherently risk-seeking).

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ademska
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Re: Is Law School Worth Sticker to YOU?

Postby ademska » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:57 am

If by sticker you mean in-state tuition and by worth it you mean with a realistic LRAP, decent employment prospects for middle of the class, and loan forgiveness.

So um kinda




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