Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

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whymeohgodno
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby whymeohgodno » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:55 pm

dresden doll wrote:LOL at 'UG matters ONLY as a tiebreaker' conventional wisdom which conveniently ignores that 1) the vast majority of applicants out there applying to same schools have practically identical numbers (a situation that clearly requires just such a 'tiebreaker'); and 2) most people linger around medians at their schools of choice (a situation that also requires 'tiebreakers').

Absent URM status, UG quality is the third most important factor. Check out Delloggio's website for comments from adcomms on the issue of 'what matters the most beyond LSAT and GPA. Only a handful identify PS, LORs and the like. And it makes sense if you think about it, since UG quality puts the second most important factor, GPA, into perspective.

If it's just the tiebreaker that keeps you out of your school of choice, then it's kinda relevant, don't you think?


I would say that major can be more relevant to putting GPA into perspective than your UG quality.

bigben
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby bigben » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:18 pm

dresden doll wrote:LOL at 'UG matters ONLY as a tiebreaker' conventional wisdom which conveniently ignores that 1) the vast majority of applicants out there applying to same schools have practically identical numbers (a situation that clearly requires just such a 'tiebreaker'); and 2) most people linger around medians at their schools of choice (a situation that also requires 'tiebreakers').

Absent URM status, UG quality is the third most important factor. Check out Delloggio's website for comments from adcomms on the issue of 'what matters the most beyond LSAT and GPA. Only a handful identify PS, LORs and the like. And it makes sense if you think about it, since UG quality puts the second most important factor, GPA, into perspective.

If it's just the tiebreaker that keeps you out of your school of choice, then it's kinda relevant, don't you think?

Most people linger around medians at the schools of their choice? I think people at the medians are generally getting accepted. They may get a waitlist but that seems to be based on interest in the school, i.e. to protect yield. Given the 25th to 75th LSAT spread at most schools, schools are obviously not reaching for a basis on which to differentiate mass numbers of candidates with the same numbers, at least at top schools. What I'm saying is that it is perfectly possible for a school to take the highest numbered applicants and call it a day while rarely needing to resort to other factors.

Only on TLS are top scores ubiquitous. For every 100,000 applicants the number of high scores looks something like this:

Code: Select all

100       179+
300       175-178
800       172-174
1,000     170-171


While the number of seats at top schools looks something like this:

Code: Select all

1-3       950
4-6     1,040
7-14    2,460


I'm not saying that UG doesn't matter, although that is my sense of it. I'm saying that your logic doesn't show that UG does matter, because there is plenty of room to differentiate people based on numbers alone.

Korey
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby Korey » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:51 pm

Unitas wrote:
Korey wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
Korey wrote:Well. I guess now that I'm stuck in the situation I'm in, I must work that much harder to keep my GPA up here :) thanks for the comments all. I can see why the law schools do this, it just doenst seem fair. But, " lifes not fair."


Why isn't it fair? Should an undergraduate institution's worth in the law school admissions process be tied to its cost? That would just be rewarding poor decision-making.


I'm not arguing that they should judge an applicant based off the cost of their UG. I'm saying it is unfair (IMO) that the UG prestige, and therefore in my opinion the workload and difficulty in many cases, is not considered to be that important. Like I said in my OP, if I had known of this prior to picking this UG, I might have chosen differently.

But, this is my own ignorance so it isn't the law schools admission process to blame, but instead myself.


Prestige does not equal more difficult or larger workload. HTH.


You are arguing that the work is not at all easier at some of the lowest ranked UG insts in the country in comparison to that of some of the highest ranked UG insts? HTH.

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Mike12188
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby Mike12188 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:59 pm

Korey wrote:
You are arguing that the work is not at all easier at some of the lowest ranked UG insts in the country in comparison to that of some of the highest ranked UG insts? HTH.


If anything they should take majors into account. I doubt there is much of a difference in difficulty between a social science/humanities degree from a shitty institution compared to an ivy

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Patriot1208
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:00 pm

Mike12188 wrote:
Korey wrote:
You are arguing that the work is not at all easier at some of the lowest ranked UG insts in the country in comparison to that of some of the highest ranked UG insts? HTH.


If anything they should take majors into account. I doubt there is much of a difference in difficulty between a social science/humanities degree from a shitty institution compared to an ivy

I don't go to an ivy, but I do go to a top private university ranked up there with some ivy's, and I can definitevely say that my political science classes at this school are at least 2x harder than my political science classes at the state school I transferred from.

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dresden doll
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:19 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
Mike12188 wrote:
Korey wrote:
You are arguing that the work is not at all easier at some of the lowest ranked UG insts in the country in comparison to that of some of the highest ranked UG insts? HTH.


If anything they should take majors into account. I doubt there is much of a difference in difficulty between a social science/humanities degree from a shitty institution compared to an ivy

I don't go to an ivy, but I do go to a top private university ranked up there with some ivy's, and I can definitevely say that my political science classes at this school are at least 2x harder than my political science classes at the state school I transferred from.


This is probably true across the board except that proud 'I-went-to-school-for-5k-per-year' contingent won't admit it.

Shit, I'd lose respect for Ivies if I ever found out that any class there was anywhere near as easy as anything I had in my UG. Impressing the prof. is no big deal when the rest of your class is a bunch of morons.

Oh, and I went to my TTT UG for free. Had a good time of it overall since easy As+full ride+ lots of time for drinking = happy college years, but would never contend that my 4.0 is anywhere near as valuable as the 4.0 of someone that actually attended a rigorous UG like Chicago or Swarthmore.

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Mike12188
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby Mike12188 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:16 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
Mike12188 wrote:
Korey wrote:
You are arguing that the work is not at all easier at some of the lowest ranked UG insts in the country in comparison to that of some of the highest ranked UG insts? HTH.


If anything they should take majors into account. I doubt there is much of a difference in difficulty between a social science/humanities degree from a shitty institution compared to an ivy

I don't go to an ivy, but I do go to a top private university ranked up there with some ivy's, and I can definitevely say that my political science classes at this school are at least 2x harder than my political science classes at the state school I transferred from.


eh. I doubt it

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Patriot1208
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:59 pm

Mike12188 wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Mike12188 wrote:
Korey wrote:
You are arguing that the work is not at all easier at some of the lowest ranked UG insts in the country in comparison to that of some of the highest ranked UG insts? HTH.


If anything they should take majors into account. I doubt there is much of a difference in difficulty between a social science/humanities degree from a shitty institution compared to an ivy

I don't go to an ivy, but I do go to a top private university ranked up there with some ivy's, and I can definitevely say that my political science classes at this school are at least 2x harder than my political science classes at the state school I transferred from.


eh. I doubt it


LOL


Ok man, whatever you feel you need to think. The thing is, I was in the camp that I would much rather go to a school with grade inflation then my local state school. I got that wish after a transfer and it has hurt my gpa quite a bit. Now, my gpa is still pretty good and well above the average, but I can tell you that my LSAT definitely needs to be a point or two higher now for the same law schools. This is all while spending a greater amount of time on school work. And I don't even go to one of the schools considered really tough on grading like Chicago. The thing is, a lot of people argue this from both sides, and almost none of them have more then one side of the experience. I happen to have both sides and can definitively say that it is tougher at higher ranked schools to get better grades, despite the average grade disparity. In my experience that disparity is almost fully due to the level of student body. There is no denying giving out more A's when more kids do great work.

notanumber
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby notanumber » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:14 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:Ok man, whatever you feel you need to think. The thing is, I was in the camp that I would much rather go to a school with grade inflation then my local state school. I got that wish after a transfer and it has hurt my gpa quite a bit. Now, my gpa is still pretty good and well above the average, but I can tell you that my LSAT definitely needs to be a point or two higher now for the same law schools. This is all while spending a greater amount of time on school work. And I don't even go to one of the schools considered really tough on grading like Chicago. The thing is, a lot of people argue this from both sides, and almost none of them have more then one side of the experience. I happen to have both sides and can definitively say that it is tougher at higher ranked schools to get better grades, despite the average grade disparity. In my experience that disparity is almost fully due to the level of student body. There is no denying giving out more A's when more kids do great work.


Having been a student at a local community college, a good public school, and a private elite university I agree with this post 100%. The only possible exception is that in community college I occasionally had professors whose mantra was "I'm a bitter jerk and will fail all of my students just because I can." I never ran into that at the public or private universities. But overall, it was a hell of a lot easier to be a standout student and get very good grades without much effort at the "lower" ranked schools.

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dresden doll
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby dresden doll » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:01 pm

notanumber wrote:Having been a student at a local community college, a good public school, and a private elite university I agree with this post 100%. The only possible exception is that in community college I occasionally had professors whose mantra was "I'm a bitter jerk and will fail all of my students just because I can." I never ran into that at the public or private universities. But overall, it was a hell of a lot easier to be a standout student and get very good grades without much effort at the "lower" ranked schools.


Funny how the people that actually did experience lower and higher ranked UGs say what I always supposed must be correct. If it weren't for gigantic chips on the shoulders from those that have a hard time admitting their 4.0s from local schools aren't worth much (excepting science degrees 'cause those are always damn tough), I'm pretty sure it'd be conventional wisdom that average difficulty of a class at Harvard >>> average difficulty of the equivalent class at bumfuck UG.

And no kidding that As tend to be more common in better schools. I bet I'd give out more As too if I were teaching a class of uberambitious high school valedictorians who never saw a B in their lives.

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RVP11
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby RVP11 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:13 pm

Okay, so we're mostly agreed that As are harder to get at better schools.

But why is UG institution still of only borderline relevance in admissions?

My hunch is that there's no strong correlation with law school grades. I certainly haven't seen one.

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Noval
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby Noval » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:44 pm

HeavenWood wrote:Go somewhere you can get a good education, academically succeed, and be happy.

My friends laughed at me when I went to Pitt and they went to Penn. I laughed right back when I got a 3.9 and they struggled to break 3.5...


Win.

Your friends must have felt like shit.

HeavenWood
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:46 pm

Noval wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Go somewhere you can get a good education, academically succeed, and be happy.

My friends laughed at me when I went to Pitt and they went to Penn. I laughed right back when I got a 3.9 and they struggled to break 3.5...


Win.

Your friends must have felt like shit.


Between their mediocre GPAs and their heavy debt, yes they did.

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MrKappus
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby MrKappus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:46 pm

Noval wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Go somewhere you can get a good education, academically succeed, and be happy.

My friends laughed at me when I went to Pitt and they went to Penn. I laughed right back when I got a 3.9 and they struggled to break 3.5...


Win.

Your friends must have felt like shit.


Might be a slight exaggeration.

HeavenWood
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:48 pm

MrKappus wrote:
Noval wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:Go somewhere you can get a good education, academically succeed, and be happy.

My friends laughed at me when I went to Pitt and they went to Penn. I laughed right back when I got a 3.9 and they struggled to break 3.5...


Win.

Your friends must have felt like shit.


Might be a slight exaggeration.


Not at all, actually.

When you are like my friends and primarily treat college as a time to party and get laid, you pay the consequences.
Last edited by HeavenWood on Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrKappus
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby MrKappus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:50 pm

Yeah, I guess having banking/consulting jobs open to you and a huge network of extremely successful alums would get me down in the dumps too. I'm not saying you can't be proud of your Pitt 3.9, but I'm pretty sure most of your 3.5@Penn friends wouldn't trade places w/ you.

HeavenWood
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:51 pm

MrKappus wrote:Yeah, I guess having banking/consulting jobs open to you and a huge network of extremely successful alums would get me down in the dumps too. I'm not saying you can't be proud of your Pitt 3.9, but I'm pretty sure most of your 3.5@Penn friends wouldn't trade places w/ you.


You don't have banking/consulting jobs open to you when you're a liberal arts major. My one friend, who is dual engineering/business, is doing just fine with his 3.0. Another actually worked hard and got a 3.85 with a 36 on the MCAT. The rest of the pre-professional crowd is screwed with mediocre grades and LSATs/MCATs. The ivy league isn't some magical place where you can completely slack off and expect to be rewarded.

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RVP11
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby RVP11 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:53 pm

MrKappus wrote:having banking/consulting jobs open to you


Not ITE, dude. Maybe HYP are still getting them, but people from Penn/Columbia weren't getting plum jobs the last 2 years.

And the vast majority of 3.5s at Penn would/should trade places with a 3.9 at Pitt if they want to go to law school.
Last edited by RVP11 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrKappus
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby MrKappus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:53 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
MrKappus wrote:Yeah, I guess having banking/consulting jobs open to you and a huge network of extremely successful alums would get me down in the dumps too. I'm not saying you can't be proud of your Pitt 3.9, but I'm pretty sure most of your 3.5@Penn friends wouldn't trade places w/ you.


You don't have banking/consulting jobs open to you when you're a liberal arts major.


Hahahahaha of COURSE you do. Nearly all of my banking/consulting friends did liberal arts majors, and I have a lot of 'em.

HeavenWood
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:55 pm

MrKappus wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
MrKappus wrote:Yeah, I guess having banking/consulting jobs open to you and a huge network of extremely successful alums would get me down in the dumps too. I'm not saying you can't be proud of your Pitt 3.9, but I'm pretty sure most of your 3.5@Penn friends wouldn't trade places w/ you.


You don't have banking/consulting jobs open to you when you're a liberal arts major.


Hahahahaha of COURSE you do. Nearly all of my banking/consulting friends did liberal arts majors, and I have a lot of 'em.


Either way, two Penn friends will almost surely success. The rest are significantly disadvantaged due to poor choices. Where does a 3.2 and a 160 LSAT get you from Penn? How about a 3.3 and a 29 MCAT? Let's not derail this thread any further. If you have any further questions, PM me.

My (shortened) 2 Cents: Schools like Penn provide great opportunities. But you can't go in expecting to coast.

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MrKappus
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby MrKappus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:57 pm

If you are dead-set on law/med school and know it, Pitt 3.9 FTW.

But I wanted options, so did most of the ppl I knew, and we had 'em. That or I happen to know the luckiest god damn subset of of non-HYP Ivy grads ever.

It's possible. We are all kind of lucky.

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Mike12188
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby Mike12188 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:12 pm

MrKappus wrote:If you are dead-set on law/med school and know it, Pitt 3.9 FTW.

But I wanted options, so did most of the ppl I knew, and we had 'em. That or I happen to know the luckiest god damn subset of of non-HYP Ivy grads ever.

It's possible. We are all kind of lucky.


If you have such great options why are you on TLS?

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MrKappus
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby MrKappus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:13 pm

Mike12188 wrote:
MrKappus wrote:If you are dead-set on law/med school and know it, Pitt 3.9 FTW.

But I wanted options, so did most of the ppl I knew, and we had 'em. That or I happen to know the luckiest god damn subset of of non-HYP Ivy grads ever.

It's possible. We are all kind of lucky.


If you have such great options why are you on TLS?


I'm no LSAT junkie, but are you saying no one on TLS has great options?

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Mike12188
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby Mike12188 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:20 pm

MrKappus wrote:I'm no LSAT junkie, but are you saying no one on TLS has great options?


No. It was a serious question lol. Why law school? Are you on a good scholarship at a T14?

09042014
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Re: Why is it that UG institution is irrelevant?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:24 pm

I know Michigan hates Illinois grads, and Northwestern loves them. So fuck Michigan. TTT in decline.




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