T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

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Robertchang
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T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Robertchang » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:44 am

Okay,

Recently, I posted about T6 and business. However, using a T6 for business may or may not be possible. However, I am more than willing to have a legal career in Biglaw which is much more glamorous and lucrative than my current city job. Let us look as Biglaw as a possible career destination:


Here are my questions:

1. How sure will a T6 graduate be at getting a job in Biglaw? First HYS ,then CCN.

2. Being somewhat business inclined,. I have to think about ROI. I am aware that most Biglaw people eventually get shown the door and make less than 100,000 at their new jobs. Since a six figure debt of around 250,000 is obtained when attending a T6 law school the number of years that the average person can last at a Biglaw firm is important. For instance, if half the people flunk out by the second year a 250,000 dollar debt does not make sense on a ROI basis even if the salary is 160,000( Have to take into account opportunity cost, interest, hours worked, etc). However, if you can survive for say five years, then it makes sense. So how long
can a reasonably good associate last at a Biglaw firm before he is shown the door? I am being realistic and assuming that I will not be one of the 1 in ten people who make partner.

3. What are hours and vacation time really like?

4. how hard is it to get into the specialty that interests you? For instance, can a graduate at a West coast San Francisco or Seattle firm get into the group dealing with Venture capital and technology Ipo's easily?


Biglaw probaly beats staying at my city job until I become eligible for a pension at age 57 or becoming a Mcdonald's manager trainee.

Thanks

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kalvano
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby kalvano » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 am

Glad to hear you're willing to "settle" for Biglaw.

All the answers you seek are readily available on the board.

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Stanford4Me
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Stanford4Me » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:48 am

You should check out AboveTheLaw's career tab where they have survey responses for different BigLaw firms. (This is mainly in response to your question about vacation time/workload):

http://careers.abovethelaw.com/

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IAFG
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby IAFG » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:49 am

oh my Goooood you're insufferable.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Jack Smirks » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:50 am

IAFG wrote:oh my Goooood you're insufferable.

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im_blue
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby im_blue » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:00 am

Let me guess, you have a 3.7 GPA, but applying to HYS is a mere formality due to your impressive work experience and likely 175+ LSAT score.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:06 am

Dude, if you're so eager to be a businessman, go get an MBA. Seriously.

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2014
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby 2014 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:05 am

I'm pretty sure that the attrition from BigLaw has a lot to do with people burning out on it and bailing themselves, or burning out and not billing remotely enough hours and getting canned for that. If you dedicate yourself to the job, I doubt you will lose it. Now not everyone has what it takes to make partner obviously, but you can reap 10-15 years of solid pay if you are willing to work hard and not let yourself burnout.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:07 am

2014 wrote:Now not everyone has what it takes to make partner obviously, but you can reap 10-15 years of solid pay if you are willing to work hard and not let yourself burnout.

1) Avoiding burnout isn't just a matter of will.

2) Where's the 10-15 years figure from? If you're not making partner at a firm you're going to be out by year 6, at the latest. If you are making partner, and can make it to 10, you're probably sticking around because you're set and you've been able to make it through long-term.

Robertchang
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Robertchang » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:27 am

<<Dude, if you're so eager to be a businessman, go get an MBA. Seriously.>>


Sure, If I could get into a Top MBA program, I would do so in a flash! However, I lack the work experience required to get into an MBA program ( they expect you to have worked at Goldman Sachs as an Investment Banker or maybe be an international diplomat negotiating peace deals for the UN) and I don't have the Ivy League undergrad, pedigree connects or background or the internships to get such a job. As for working my way up on a lower track, well I am sure that 14th century English peasants if they proved to be excellent peasants long enough could have been royalty and that black South Africans during apartheid if they were excellent mine slaves could have gotten promoted to mine owner. The East Coast is as rigid a degree and class based system as Apartheid South Africa was a race based caste system. The Brilliant blue collar born contracting entrepreneur might have made more practical decisions than the silver spoons at goldman Sachs who got us into Subprime but sadly, those in Goldman Sachs are from the right family.

I will never be able to get the work experience to get into a Top MBA and the work experience I can get without it is all dead end junk like Fast Food Management, so I guess I will go to a T6 law school and into Big Law.

The East coast is the land of the Ivy League degree and the right family today.It is almost as rigid as South African Apartheid was. Speaking of,South Africa actually has slightly more upside for a business career than the East Coast of the USA. The Top MBA programs there have slightly easier admissions standards, there are new and emerging industries and markets, some South African women, both black and white look very hot, and unlike the east coast there is better weather and better ocean surfing! Believe it or not, they are actually growing at a faster rate than the USA economically.

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Grizz
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:45 am

Robertchang wrote:<<Dude, if you're so eager to be a businessman, go get an MBA. Seriously.>>


Sure, If I could get into a Top MBA program, I would do so in a flash! However, I lack the work experience required to get into an MBA program ( they expect you to have worked at Goldman Sachs as an Investment Banker or maybe be an international diplomat negotiating peace deals for the UN) and I don't have the Ivy League undergrad, pedigree connects or background or the internships to get such a job. As for working my way up on a lower track, well I am sure that 14th century English peasants if they proved to be excellent peasants long enough could have been royalty and that black South Africans during apartheid if they were excellent mine slaves could have gotten promoted to mine owner. The East Coast is as rigid a degree and class based system as Apartheid South Africa was a race based caste system. The Brilliant blue collar born contracting entrepreneur might have made more practical decisions than the silver spoons at goldman Sachs who got us into Subprime but sadly, those in Goldman Sachs are from the right family.

I will never be able to get the work experience to get into a Top MBA and the work experience I can get without it is all dead end junk like Fast Food Management, so I guess I will go to a T6 law school and into Big Law.

The East coast is the land of the Ivy League degree and the right family today.It is almost as rigid as South African Apartheid was. Speaking of,South Africa actually has slightly more upside for a business career than the East Coast of the USA. The Top MBA programs there have slightly easier admissions standards, there are new and emerging industries and markets, some South African women, both black and white look very hot, and unlike the east coast there is better weather and better ocean surfing! Believe it or not, they are actually growing at a faster rate than the USA economically.


I hate you so much for so many reasons.

bigben
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby bigben » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:28 am

Caveat: the following are nothing more than impressions based on anecdotes, random info, and conventional wisdom.

1. Chances are pretty good. Rough figures might be Y 100%, HS 80%, CCN 60%. If you're a go-getter, your odds are better.

2. The recent recession notwithstanding, people are not usually forced out of biglaw in the first 3-5 years. Tons of people quit voluntarily within this time frame because they don't like it. If you can hack it, it's pretty reasonable to assume that you will be able to stay for at least 3-5 years. There is also an appreciable chance of having the option to make more than 100k when you exit (e.g. midlaw, in-house).

3. Varies, but most likely you'll shoot for billing 40 hours a week on average which might equate to 50 hours worked or even more when you're a newbie. This doesn't tell the whole story though. Some weeks you may bill 80 and some months you may bill 300. The hours might be unpredictable too. Vacation is just whenever you happen to have down time.

4. Varies. This can probably only be answered by people with specific knowledge of particular groups.

Congrats on having a rational approach and asking all the right questions. The hate being piled on ITT is very amusing.

mst
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby mst » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:41 am

I don't really understand all the hate in this thread (aside from the fact the OP comes off as a bit annoying).

It's weird that so many of you guys and gals are willing to spend this entire thread just making snide remarks instead of just answering... You seem to realize the value of the search function in regards to the OP, but you don't keep in mind that there are hundreds of other people who could potentially want this particular thread/series of questions answered now that it's been brought up. You punish all of us when you spend the entire thread just bashing on the OP...

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Kabuo
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Kabuo » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:15 am

This thread would have been more tolerable if you never compared your lack of a satisfying career with the plight of black South Africans under apartheid. It's like you signed up for a course about SA, read the syllabus, never went, and then read something about relative economic growth and decided you could relate to being persecuted by the institution. That said, it still wouldn't have been very tolerable.

Renzo
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Renzo » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:37 am

I was really upset by the low quality of the troll posts I was reading this morning, but this has restored my faith. Here's to you, RobertChang.

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reasonable_man
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby reasonable_man » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:51 am

IAFG wrote:oh my Goooood you're insufferable.


Can we call "Thread/" right after this post???

miamiman
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby miamiman » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:08 am

On account of ls, I had all but vacated TLS. This thread calls that deision into question.

For the record, OP, all of us T6ers - that's what we call ourselves, actually - are settling for BigLaw. Join us!

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kalvano
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby kalvano » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:09 am

Robertchang wrote:<<Dude, if you're so eager to be a businessman, go get an MBA. Seriously.>>


Sure, If I could get into a Top MBA program, I would do so in a flash! However, I lack the work experience required to get into an MBA program ( they expect you to have worked at Goldman Sachs as an Investment Banker or maybe be an international diplomat negotiating peace deals for the UN) and I don't have the Ivy League undergrad, pedigree connects or background or the internships to get such a job. As for working my way up on a lower track, well I am sure that 14th century English peasants if they proved to be excellent peasants long enough could have been royalty and that black South Africans during apartheid if they were excellent mine slaves could have gotten promoted to mine owner. The East Coast is as rigid a degree and class based system as Apartheid South Africa was a race based caste system. The Brilliant blue collar born contracting entrepreneur might have made more practical decisions than the silver spoons at goldman Sachs who got us into Subprime but sadly, those in Goldman Sachs are from the right family.

I will never be able to get the work experience to get into a Top MBA and the work experience I can get without it is all dead end junk like Fast Food Management, so I guess I will go to a T6 law school and into Big Law.

The East coast is the land of the Ivy League degree and the right family today.It is almost as rigid as South African Apartheid was. Speaking of,South Africa actually has slightly more upside for a business career than the East Coast of the USA. The Top MBA programs there have slightly easier admissions standards, there are new and emerging industries and markets, some South African women, both black and white look very hot, and unlike the east coast there is better weather and better ocean surfing! Believe it or not, they are actually growing at a faster rate than the USA economically.




Inquiring minds want to know - have you been punched in the face recently? If not, that should be fixed.

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Patriot1208
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:58 am

All I read was:

"I'm went to a crappy undergrad that gave out 4.0's to everyone. I'm not smart enough to get a good job and consequently get into a good MBA program. So i'm using the fact that I will beable to study for a learnable test for 400 hours to convince myself i'm not as stupid as everyone else thinks I am."

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DukeCornell
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby DukeCornell » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:08 am

Stanford4Me wrote:You should check out AboveTheLaw's career tab where they have survey responses for different BigLaw firms. (This is mainly in response to your question about vacation time/workload):

http://careers.abovethelaw.com/



I was thinking the same thing.

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Stanford4Me
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Stanford4Me » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:12 am

2014 wrote:but you can reap 10-15 years of solid pay if you are willing to work hard and not let yourself burnout.

You realize the avg. partner track is like 6-8 years, the longest partner track I've seen (at a firm I can't remember) was 10 years. Generally if you don't make partner you are politely (or not) shown to the door.

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ahduth
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby ahduth » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:40 am

Robertchang wrote:The East Coast is as rigid a degree and class based system as Apartheid South Africa was a race based caste system. The Brilliant blue collar born contracting entrepreneur might have made more practical decisions than the silver spoons at goldman Sachs who got us into Subprime but sadly, those in Goldman Sachs are from the right family.

The East coast is the land of the Ivy League degree and the right family today.It is almost as rigid as South African Apartheid was.


As an aspiring lawyer, I somehow feel compelled to defend his right to be a total douchebag here. Robertchang, you may be a worthless sack, but I am nominating myself to your defense team.

The east coast banking hierarchy is very much based on status and pedigree. Young preppies go to boarding schools, so they can go to Ivy League schools, so they can go work on Wall Street, so they can go to Wharton and so forth, so they can go back to Wall Street. They have had no reason or need to break this cycle. Robert is merely pointing out that he can become extremely successful in his own right, owning a vast corporate empire, yet still not be considered "one of them." And because of this, he will not be admitted to a top business school. Destined to never join the same country clubs or eat at the same restaurants...

...

Ah screw it, I can't do this. Do you have any idea how many people become fabulously wealthy starting their own businesses, and mock people who go to business school because they're just empty suits? If you are going to law school for the money, you're an idiot. Become a doctor, they have the world's best job security, because... people are mortal. Plus, the degree is highly transferable. You could go work in South Africa! Something that will not be nearly as easy with a law degree. Whatever you do... just stay out of law school. I don't want to have to attend class with you.

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Patriot1208
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:47 am

Why should Goldman Sachs hire outside of top schools? If you people don't like the fact that you can't get onto wall street because you went to North Applachian southwest college then you should have done better in high school. These companies have no reason to recruit from schools who have 100x more kids who couldn't even begin to comprehend the work that is done on wall street. Those 1 or 2 "diamonds in the rough" aren't worth it when there are more then enough capable kids at schools that have much harder curriculums. BTW, you don't have to go to a boarding school or come from a rich family to go to an ivy. In fact, most of the top ranked schools are far in away the most generous in financial aid.
Last edited by Patriot1208 on Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hattori Hanzo
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby Hattori Hanzo » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:57 pm

Your assumption about top MBA schools is absolutely wrong on almost all counts. You do need work experience but it does not have to be IB. Also, you CAN get IB out of many non Ivy schools if that's what you wanted. I went to UCLA for undergrad and have friends who went to (and are still working at) Credit Suisse and Goldman. I also have friends in top MBA programs (Stanford and HBS) who graduated from UCSB and UCLA, worked in public accounting (one big 4 and one super regional firm) for 2-3 years and went to B school. Nothing out of the ordinary. Just a senior position in public accounting, a decent undergrad GPA and a good GMAT score.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T6 ( If I end up in Biglaw)

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:17 pm

ahduth wrote:Do you have any idea how many people become fabulously wealthy starting their own businesses, and mock people who go to business school because they're just empty suits? If you are going to law school for the money, you're an idiot.

I actually had a partner at a V5 firm comment to me, "You know, doing this job just for the money isn't a great idea. Sure, it's good pay, but if you're at the level you can compete here, you're capable enough to be an entrepreneur, and the ratio of income to hours worked is much higher there. If you're here it's for another reason."

And I kept thinking about that, and he's right. $160K/yr sounds like a lot, but it's fixed, and you're not building anything that'll keep making you money, you have to keep putting work in to get money out. Compare that to (on the extreme) Zuckerberg, who at 26 years old is worth over a billion dollars and could sell the company he's built and retire right now.

That's an extreme example, but you don't have to build a company worth a billion dollars to be more successful than someone making $160K/year at sometimes 80 hours per week.




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