How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

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manbearwig
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby manbearwig » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:39 pm

Pip wrote:The trouble with someone proofing your work is that there is a thin line between mere proof reading and cheating... At one end of the spectrum is where the proof reader says you typed a word, because you hit a "d" instead of and "f" on your keyboard.... at the other end of the spectrum is where the proof reader tell you that your analysis is wrong and sets out the proper analysis of the problem you were supposed to be solving, that is no better than having someone else do your homework.

The simple fact is anyone with a word processor can quickly scan their document for true proof reading help... but when you get someone else, especially another student working on the same problem... well that my friend is cheating. If you find that difficult to understand then I can only assume you were one of the many kids that got through school because their friends help them cheat their way through... good for you pat yourself on the back, but beware that in the real world you wont have people that are working on the same problem you are you will need to be able to work it out by yourself.


So the fact that almost all of my undergrad courses recommended we use the writing center, and several requiring it, means nothing?

I can't believe someone is actually arguing against having someone else proof your work.

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Unitas
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Unitas » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:41 pm

manbearwig wrote:
Pip wrote:The trouble with someone proofing your work is that there is a thin line between mere proof reading and cheating... At one end of the spectrum is where the proof reader says you typed a word, because you hit a "d" instead of and "f" on your keyboard.... at the other end of the spectrum is where the proof reader tell you that your analysis is wrong and sets out the proper analysis of the problem you were supposed to be solving, that is no better than having someone else do your homework.

The simple fact is anyone with a word processor can quickly scan their document for true proof reading help... but when you get someone else, especially another student working on the same problem... well that my friend is cheating. If you find that difficult to understand then I can only assume you were one of the many kids that got through school because their friends help them cheat their way through... good for you pat yourself on the back, but beware that in the real world you wont have people that are working on the same problem you are you will need to be able to work it out by yourself.


So the fact that almost all of my undergrad courses recommended we use the writing center, and several requiring it, means nothing?

I can't believe someone is actually arguing against having someone else proof your work.


Using a writing center is not the same as giving your work to another student. My UG writing center had rules about what they were allowed and not allowed to do. Friends obviously don't have those rules. We also had classes that encouraged trading with other students (usually these classes were upper level and never included an English class), but we were always told/encouraged to do it.

This has nothing to do with what this student did though. This student was told exactly what not to do and did it. "I didn't read the rules that were given to me to read" isn't an excuse. I also don't like how OP called this a "possible" honor code violation. It clearly is an honor code violation. However, I hope it isn't a huge punishment due to the nature of first week jitters, but I can't stress enough how annoyed it makes me that OP wouldn't even leave out the "possible" in the subject.

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TheTopBloke
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby TheTopBloke » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:49 pm

Snitches get stitches.

whymeohgodno
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:44 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Pip wrote:I also fail to see why you would ever think it was okay for you to have someone else proof read your assignments at all, in undergrad or law school... You are supposed to be showing what you know not what your proof reader or buddy knows. In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.


This is lulzy. Almost every undergrad class encourages people to get their work proofread. Every single Poli Sci, English, History class i've taken at 2 different universities has listed the writing center as in the syllabus for proofreading purposes. Not getting your work proofread is just passing up on free help. Very stupid, and as it seems most law schools don't have this same stupid rule is the OP's.


I've never had anyone proofread my work in undergrad except for a writing class where it was absolutely required that we peer review each other.

But I don't think history/political science papers need proof reading anyways. They are pretty simple and straightforward. I would definitely ask some people on TLS to proofread my PS though.


I never said anywhere you had to. I said it was always encouraged. And I think it is dumb to pass up on free help. Either way it still makes it lulzy that pip deems it "not okay" to have someone else proofread your work in undergrad.


I'd rather get my grade on a paper and know it was the result of only my work than to get a grade and never know whether it was me who earned the grade or whether it was because of my friend that I got the grade that I did.

lawschool2014
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby lawschool2014 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:56 pm

I would advise dropping out unless your at a t14....

and you will fail legal writing most likely based on your writing skills (not because of this)

jk about the former.

I dont think its going to be that big a deal. Its so early on that I am sure some leniency is given (you are probably going to be the model for other 1l of what not to do)

Good Luck

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Patriot1208
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:49 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
This is lulzy. Almost every undergrad class encourages people to get their work proofread. Every single Poli Sci, English, History class i've taken at 2 different universities has listed the writing center as in the syllabus for proofreading purposes. Not getting your work proofread is just passing up on free help. Very stupid, and as it seems most law schools don't have this same stupid rule is the OP's.


I've never had anyone proofread my work in undergrad except for a writing class where it was absolutely required that we peer review each other.

But I don't think history/political science papers need proof reading anyways. They are pretty simple and straightforward. I would definitely ask some people on TLS to proofread my PS though.


I never said anywhere you had to. I said it was always encouraged. And I think it is dumb to pass up on free help. Either way it still makes it lulzy that pip deems it "not okay" to have someone else proofread your work in undergrad.


I'd rather get my grade on a paper and know it was the result of only my work than to get a grade and never know whether it was me who earned the grade or whether it was because of my friend that I got the grade that I did.

lol people like you are so lulzy. Have fun surviving IRL without being able to work in a team and share credit. Also, self righteousness gets you nowhere. You know what gets you somewhere? Better grades. Not taking advantage of every thing (legally) that you can to maximize your grades and effort is just hurting yourself.

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traehekat
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby traehekat » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:59 pm

Under all the circumstances, I think you will be alright OP. Don't lose too much sleep over it. While not knowing the rule is never an excuse for violating the rule, I think this is a minor violation in light of everything and nothing that should preclude you from continuing your education and passing the bar.

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Ford Prefect
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Ford Prefect » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
I've never had anyone proofread my work in undergrad except for a writing class where it was absolutely required that we peer review each other.

But I don't think history/political science papers need proof reading anyways. They are pretty simple and straightforward. I would definitely ask some people on TLS to proofread my PS though.


I never said anywhere you had to. I said it was always encouraged. And I think it is dumb to pass up on free help. Either way it still makes it lulzy that pip deems it "not okay" to have someone else proofread your work in undergrad.


I'd rather get my grade on a paper and know it was the result of only my work than to get a grade and never know whether it was me who earned the grade or whether it was because of my friend that I got the grade that I did.

lol people like you are so lulzy. Have fun surviving IRL without being able to work in a team and share credit. Also, self righteousness gets you nowhere. You know what gets you somewhere? Better grades. Not taking advantage of every thing (legally) that you can to maximize your grades and effort is just hurting yourself.


Listen to Patriot. You should almost ALWAYS have someone proof your work for spelling, grammar and syntax errors. You should also ALWAYS have someone proof your work for the content.

You spend hours or days or weeks writing and researching a paper. You turn it in as-is and your professor fails you for a major flaw (maybe you didn't credit a source properly or misread/misunderstood an article you use as a major source). Now you're a failure and probably doubly so because you won't use this as a learning opportunity (it was probably the professor's fault, anyway). Alternatively, you have someone proof your paper and they find the problem and show you why it is a problem. Maybe it was just a simple misreading, but maybe it was a reading comprehension failure. Either way, you have the opportunity to both rewrite before turning in AND to learn something. And learning is good.

Edit: Also, OP, I hope things work out for you. Good luck.

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Quine
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Quine » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:42 pm

traehekat wrote:Under all the circumstances, I think you will be alright OP. Don't lose too much sleep over it. While not knowing the rule is never an excuse for violating the rule, I think this is a minor violation in light of everything and nothing that should preclude you from continuing your education and passing the bar.


Ugh. I hate it when people say this. It's actually a really good excuse - especially when the rule is counterintuitive - it's just impossible to tell when the claim to ignorance is legitimate.

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Unitas
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Unitas » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:30 pm

Quine wrote:
traehekat wrote:Under all the circumstances, I think you will be alright OP. Don't lose too much sleep over it. While not knowing the rule is never an excuse for violating the rule, I think this is a minor violation in light of everything and nothing that should preclude you from continuing your education and passing the bar.


Ugh. I hate it when people say this. It's actually a really good excuse - especially when the rule is counterintuitive - it's just impossible to tell when the claim to ignorance is legitimate.


Uh no, the rule was in OPs required reading for day 1. It would therefore not be a really good excuse.

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Quine
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Quine » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:53 pm

Unitas wrote:
Quine wrote:
traehekat wrote:Under all the circumstances, I think you will be alright OP. Don't lose too much sleep over it. While not knowing the rule is never an excuse for violating the rule, I think this is a minor violation in light of everything and nothing that should preclude you from continuing your education and passing the bar.


Ugh. I hate it when people say this. It's actually a really good excuse - especially when the rule is counterintuitive - it's just impossible to tell when the claim to ignorance is legitimate.


Uh no, the rule was in OPs required reading for day 1. It would therefore not be a really good excuse.


The bolded statement is an oft-repeated generalization derived from legal principle (ignorantia juris non excusat). That principle, in its general form - the form employed by the quoted poster - is the subject of my commentary. I said nothing about the OP's situation.

You should probably save your condescension for when you've reached a high school reading level.

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traehekat
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby traehekat » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:18 am

Quine wrote:
Unitas wrote:
Quine wrote:
traehekat wrote:Under all the circumstances, I think you will be alright OP. Don't lose too much sleep over it. While not knowing the rule is never an excuse for violating the rule, I think this is a minor violation in light of everything and nothing that should preclude you from continuing your education and passing the bar.


Ugh. I hate it when people say this. It's actually a really good excuse - especially when the rule is counterintuitive - it's just impossible to tell when the claim to ignorance is legitimate.


Uh no, the rule was in OPs required reading for day 1. It would therefore not be a really good excuse.


The bolded statement is an oft-repeated generalization derived from legal principle (ignorantia juris non excusat). That principle, in its general form - the form employed by the quoted poster - is the subject of my commentary. I said nothing about the OP's situation.

You should probably save your condescension for when you've reached a high school reading level.


Didn't even know it was a legal principle, just seems like common sense. However, perhaps I should have said "...is USUALLY not an excuse..."

As Unitas said, though, it is most likely not an excuse in OP's situation. He probably had to sign something agreeing to the honor code. It was right there in writing. While it may be counter-intuitive, it was spelled out for him.

Or her.

whymeohgodno
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby whymeohgodno » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:32 am

lol people like you are so lulzy. Have fun surviving IRL without being able to work in a team and share credit. Also, self righteousness gets you nowhere. You know what gets you somewhere? Better grades. Not taking advantage of every thing (legally) that you can to maximize your grades and effort is just hurting yourself.


I go an A in almost all of my classes that required writing essays. It just wasn't that hard for me and I didn't want nor require peer review to maximize my grades. I guess in your case you needed to "maximize your grades" by asking friends to improve your writing. Good for you?

Also, working as a team on something is different than having a paper assigned to you as an individual. Grats on making a false analogy.

I didn't realize that choosing to work alone on an assignment that is an individual project translated into being unable to work as a team. Maybe you should work on your reasoning skills before coming to conclusions that have no actual support.

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jayn3
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby jayn3 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:34 am

TheTopBloke wrote:Snitches get stitches.

:D

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Stanford4Me
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Stanford4Me » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:35 am

Pip wrote:So was the student you traded with in your same class or in another class from the sound of what you wrote.. in which case it is entirely possible that your buddy's professor didn't care if he had someone proof his paper or not.

That said, you now have to make a decision. Do you narc on your buddy for something that you did or simply state that you broke the rule and aren't going to bring anyone else into it with you... frankly that is your best option. If you narc out your buddy I can guarantee you that you will be talked about and not trusted by your classmates for the rest of your time in law school (assuming you aren't kicked out). I say that because I can recall the little whiner in my first year class that claimed people had cheated during an exam in the first year, his reasoning was all hearsay and based on the fact that he scored lower than others and couldn't believe it was because other were just better than he was in the class... within days word was out and he was pretty much an outcast from that point on. You will likely face that yourself if you decide to turn in your buddy that YOU got into this mess.

I also fail to see why you would ever think it was okay for you to have someone else proof read your assignments at all, in undergrad or law school... You are supposed to be showing what you know not what your proof reader or buddy knows. In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.

You Are Stupid.

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northwood
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby northwood » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:52 am

op, go talk to your professor in person. Explain yourself to him, and dont say who your peer reviewer is. ( you will be outcasted for that). Tell him why you asked the question, and be prepared to get a lousy grade on the paper. Since this is your second week, im sure the professor is trying to scare you a bit, and use you as an example to others. ( this could be done in a lot of ways, but i would guess that you will get a bad grade, and he will exaggerate the consequences to deter others).


In the future, use editing to help with sentence flow, grammar and punctuation only. ITs acceptable to get help with those things, but not something major as format and structure of the paper.

Now, go take some birthday shots and forget about this for the rest of the night.

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Quine
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Quine » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:05 am

traehekat wrote:As Unitas said, though, it is most likely not an excuse in OP's situation. He probably had to sign something agreeing to the honor code. It was right there in writing. While it may be counter-intuitive, it was spelled out for him.


And, yet again, as I said, my comments were in not directed at the OP's situation. I didn't say the rule the OP violated was counterintuitive. I didn't say he didn't agree to it. I did not comment on it.

So Unitas was, indeed, wholly incorrect in his assertion insofar as it was directed at my commentary.

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traehekat
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby traehekat » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:29 am

Quine wrote:
traehekat wrote:As Unitas said, though, it is most likely not an excuse in OP's situation. He probably had to sign something agreeing to the honor code. It was right there in writing. While it may be counter-intuitive, it was spelled out for him.


And, yet again, as I said, my comments were in not directed at the OP's situation. I didn't say the rule the OP violated was counterintuitive. I didn't say he didn't agree to it. I did not comment on it.

So Unitas was, indeed, wholly incorrect in his assertion insofar as it was directed at my commentary.


Well, uh... then thanks for the comment that was apparently entirely unrelated to the topic? Glad to know your stance on ignorantia juris non excusat.

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St.Remy
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby St.Remy » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:39 am

I hope the OP had a good birthday.

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Patriot1208
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Patriot1208 » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:05 am

whymeohgodno wrote:
lol people like you are so lulzy. Have fun surviving IRL without being able to work in a team and share credit. Also, self righteousness gets you nowhere. You know what gets you somewhere? Better grades. Not taking advantage of every thing (legally) that you can to maximize your grades and effort is just hurting yourself.


I go an A in almost all of my classes that required writing essays. It just wasn't that hard for me and I didn't want nor require peer review to maximize my grades. I guess in your case you needed to "maximize your grades" by asking friends to improve your writing. Good for you?

Also, working as a team on something is different than having a paper assigned to you as an individual. Grats on making a false analogy.

I didn't realize that choosing to work alone on an assignment that is an individual project translated into being unable to work as a team. Maybe you should work on your reasoning skills before coming to conclusions that have no actual support.


ITT: Self Righteous people want to have their ego's stroked.

Also, I liked the implication that you must be smarter than me because I had my papers looked at. Lets just take a minute to think about how stupid that statement is........... ok done.

Also, the analogy is completely valid. You may not have realized what goes on IRL because you've never done anything but school, but you often get things assigned to just you, and you have to get help and coordinate with other people with better expertise to get the best possible result.

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mindybluehammer
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby mindybluehammer » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:38 am

manbearwig wrote:
Pip wrote:The trouble with someone proofing your work is that there is a thin line between mere proof reading and cheating... At one end of the spectrum is where the proof reader says you typed a word, because you hit a "d" instead of and "f" on your keyboard.... at the other end of the spectrum is where the proof reader tell you that your analysis is wrong and sets out the proper analysis of the problem you were supposed to be solving, that is no better than having someone else do your homework.

The simple fact is anyone with a word processor can quickly scan their document for true proof reading help... but when you get someone else, especially another student working on the same problem... well that my friend is cheating. If you find that difficult to understand then I can only assume you were one of the many kids that got through school because their friends help them cheat their way through... good for you pat yourself on the back, but beware that in the real world you wont have people that are working on the same problem you are you will need to be able to work it out by yourself.


So the fact that almost all of my undergrad courses recommended we use the writing center, and several requiring it, means nothing?

I can't believe someone is actually arguing against having someone else proof your work.




Sorry to say but you got what you deserved, what kind of idiot mentions in an email to a prof another students paper. You should of asked about the format, the end.
Last edited by mindybluehammer on Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mindybluehammer
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby mindybluehammer » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:47 am

-
Last edited by mindybluehammer on Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Quine
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Quine » Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:12 pm

mindybluehammer wrote:Yeah he just dropped in the thread to post something irrelevant to the OP's situation, then to try and get in an E-fight by insulting someones reading level... Good Show! Thanks for posting the equivalence of :


Ignorance of the Law (thanks for the Latin that was helpful)(not) is an interesting topic to me and the prima facie interpretation is dubious. (in my mind)

U SMELL LIKE A SHIT HEAD BROSEPH



... and you actually just registered on TLS to call the OP an idiot and make a show of your ineptitude with both grammar and the quoting function?

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manbearwig
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby manbearwig » Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:42 pm

mindybluehammer wrote:
manbearwig wrote:
Pip wrote:The trouble with someone proofing your work is that there is a thin line between mere proof reading and cheating... At one end of the spectrum is where the proof reader says you typed a word, because you hit a "d" instead of and "f" on your keyboard.... at the other end of the spectrum is where the proof reader tell you that your analysis is wrong and sets out the proper analysis of the problem you were supposed to be solving, that is no better than having someone else do your homework.

The simple fact is anyone with a word processor can quickly scan their document for true proof reading help... but when you get someone else, especially another student working on the same problem... well that my friend is cheating. If you find that difficult to understand then I can only assume you were one of the many kids that got through school because their friends help them cheat their way through... good for you pat yourself on the back, but beware that in the real world you wont have people that are working on the same problem you are you will need to be able to work it out by yourself.


So the fact that almost all of my undergrad courses recommended we use the writing center, and several requiring it, means nothing?

I can't believe someone is actually arguing against having someone else proof your work.



You argue because your school allows it it is therefore allowable in law school. No, and btw I have taken several classes where it was strictly forbidden.

Who proof reads your work in LS? YOUR PROFS

Sorry to say but you got what you deserved, what kind of idiot mentions in an email to a prof another students paper. You should of asked about the format, the end.

welcome to L


WTF? First off, reading comp, dude. Where was I arguing that it should be allowed in law school. Second, totally not the OP here.

Learn how to use internet forums. :roll:

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Quine
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Quine » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:44 pm

manbearwig wrote:WTF? First off, reading comp, dude. Where was I arguing that it should be allowed in law school. Second, totally not the OP here.

Learn how to use internet forums. :roll:


He/She/He-she is hopeless.




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