How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

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blong4133
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How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby blong4133 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:51 pm

Well I've been in law school for 2 weeks and have already managed to violate the honor code. We had our first writing assignment in our legal writing class which was a 2 page closed single issue analysis paper. I wrote the paper myself, and the night before the paper was due I asked my buddy if he wanted to exchange papers to proof read, not realizing that it is an honor code violation to do so. (I was a history major and used peer review for every single paper I wrote in undergrad, and it was encouraged). I realize that my buddy used a memo format, which my particular professor did not specify. I e-mailed him and stated that I had exchanged papers with a peer and noticed he followed a memo format and asked if we were to follow the sample format, or the memo format. He responded by telling me I had violated the honor code and to tell him who the other student was so he could talk with them to decide what to do about my violation. come to find, that the LW supplement that we were assigned to read for the first day of class, they discuss how lawyers regularly write memo's and submit them to other attorneys for review etc. But after 3 or so paragraphs of discussing this, they mention in one sentance that no student shall exchange written documents for editing purposes. So basically, it spends 3 paragraphs talking about one thing, then in one sentence says that we're not allowed to do that. I will admit, it was a 15 pg document, and I remember having a total of 80 + pages of reading that night, and with the LW class being my last class of the day, I waited until last to read it. I was tired and did not read it as closely as I should have. I e mailed my professor back after reading through the Supplement, and told him that I was sorry and had no idea that was considered an honor code violation. (I mean I've been encouraged to do this for every paper I've written in my life.) So do any of you know what the probable action will be against me. Today is my birthday and i've spent it an emotional wreck and am very worried about what could happen to me. Keep in mind i am a 1L in his second wekk of law school.

Aqualibrium
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Aqualibrium » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:57 pm

It depends entirely on your school, but I think you'll probably get a stern talking to and a note in your file. This isn't a major violation, and at this early juncture it's just not enough to dock your grade or kick you out or something silly like that.

blong4133
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby blong4133 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:59 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:It depends entirely on your school, but I think you'll probably get a stern talking to and a note in your file. This isn't a major violation, and at this early juncture it's just not enough to dock your grade or kick you out or something silly like that.

Do you think it will go on my character and fitness? I don't wanna have to fight this when i go to take the bar exam

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rayiner
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby rayiner » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:01 pm

From the looks of it you'll fail legal writing anyway.

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GodSpeed
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby GodSpeed » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:01 pm

awesome. serves your right for being a gunner.

blong4133
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby blong4133 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:03 pm

rayiner wrote:From the looks of it you'll fail legal writing anyway.

Indubitably.

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Zugzwang
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Zugzwang » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:04 pm

rayiner wrote:From the looks of it you'll fail legal writing anyway.

QF best post in thread

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afcanoe
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby afcanoe » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:12 pm

rayiner wrote:From the looks of it you'll fail legal writing anyway.
GodSpeed wrote:awesome. serves your right for being a gunner.


Uhh...happy birthday to you?? :(

I really don't have any information that could ease your mind on this one (I'm just a lowly 0L), but I would imagine that some sort of addendum/written explanation would probably do the trick if this were ever to become a bigger issue for you. Best of luck. The best thing to do right now is probably to stop worrying, go celebrate your birthday, and pay closer attention to the reading in the future.

12262010
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby 12262010 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:15 pm

afcanoe wrote:
rayiner wrote:From the looks of it you'll fail legal writing anyway.
GodSpeed wrote:awesome. serves your right for being a gunner.


Uhh...happy birthday to you?? :(

I really don't have any information that could ease your mind on this one (I'm just a lowly 0L), but I would imagine that some sort of addendum/written explanation would probably do the trick if this were ever to become a bigger issue for you. Best of luck. The best thing to do right now is probably to stop worrying, go celebrate your birthday, and pay closer attention to the reading in the future.


an addendum to who? future employers?

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Zugzwang
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Zugzwang » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:17 pm

booyakasha wrote:
afcanoe wrote:
rayiner wrote:From the looks of it you'll fail legal writing anyway.
GodSpeed wrote:awesome. serves your right for being a gunner.


Uhh...happy birthday to you?? :(

I really don't have any information that could ease your mind on this one (I'm just a lowly 0L), but I would imagine that some sort of addendum/written explanation would probably do the trick if this were ever to become a bigger issue for you. Best of luck. The best thing to do right now is probably to stop worrying, go celebrate your birthday, and pay closer attention to the reading in the future.


an addendum to who? future employers?


Please include your resume, transcripts, writing sample, cover letter, and any applicable addenda explaining why the bar association will reject your application.

Aqualibrium
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Aqualibrium » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:27 pm

blong4133 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:It depends entirely on your school, but I think you'll probably get a stern talking to and a note in your file. This isn't a major violation, and at this early juncture it's just not enough to dock your grade or kick you out or something silly like that.

Do you think it will go on my character and fitness? I don't wanna have to fight this when i go to take the bar exam


I can't answer that. I don't think this is serious enough for something like that. I do however think that you're now in a situation where anything you do from this point will get you a more serious reprimand automatically.

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afcanoe
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby afcanoe » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:29 pm

Yeah - I don't know anything about the process of applying to the bar yet. I just figured that the app. process would probably include some sort of venue for addressing causes for possible rejection/notes in your file.

blong4133
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby blong4133 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:02 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
blong4133 wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:It depends entirely on your school, but I think you'll probably get a stern talking to and a note in your file. This isn't a major violation, and at this early juncture it's just not enough to dock your grade or kick you out or something silly like that.

Do you think it will go on my character and fitness? I don't wanna have to fight this when i go to take the bar exam


I can't answer that. I don't think this is serious enough for something like that. I do however think that you're now in a situation where anything you do from this point will get you a more serious reprimand automatically.

I understand. The thing is that I have never had any sort of disciplinary action carried out against me. This is the first time I have EVER been in trouble. So I'm not worried about any sort of "future issue." It's just frustrating because I know people who don't do their reading for class and bum case briefs from others to "get by." (but I have no control over that) I do my work and have devoted the next three years of my life to law school. To have something as stupid and petty as proofreading someone else's paper result in a bad grade or something that I'm going to have to explain when I go to take the bar just frustrates the hell out of me. I'm just hoping they chalk it up to a lesson learned and let me get on with my education. (I'm sure it's not that easy most of the time :/

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LadyTarHeelian
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby LadyTarHeelian » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:22 pm

OP, boo to your school for not making it clearer. We went over the honor code and its application to legal writing in our class so that there were no questions about what was okay and what was not. You obviously weren't the only one who didn't get the message since the guy you traded with didn't object. If I were you, I'd argue it, at least a little. I personally don't think it'll hurt you much and you've got an explanation if it ever comes up in the future. Good luck with it and happy birthday.

blong4133
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby blong4133 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:39 pm

LadyTarHeelian wrote:OP, boo to your school for not making it clearer. We went over the honor code and its application to legal writing in our class so that there were no questions about what was okay and what was not. You obviously weren't the only one who didn't get the message since the guy you traded with didn't object. If I were you, I'd argue it, at least a little. I personally don't think it'll hurt you much and you've got an explanation if it ever comes up in the future. Good luck with it and happy birthday.

Agreed. I'm prepared to amend the decision if they decide to carry out any action against me. They never discussed the issue in class. I feel that "peer review" is such a common thing to do in undergrad that if it is in fact considered an ethic code violation that they would absolutely spell it out for everyone in class. After I got the e-mail telling me I was in violation of the ethic code I asked numerous students if they were aware of this particular section. Of course, no one was aware of it. So some of the blame obviously should be on the school itself for not explaining the issue. It just seems like such an insanely moronic thing to get in trouble for, and the fact they never even mentioned the issue only adds to the situation. I have a meeting with the professor tomorrow afternoon so we'll see what happens.

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2014
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby 2014 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:26 pm

As long as you don't go to U.Va I'm guessing you will probably just take a severe hit on the grade for that paper and will be watched more closely.

If you go to U.Va have fun doing paralegal because you are getting kicked out.

BobSacamano
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby BobSacamano » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:54 pm

Can I just say that that's an absolutely absurd "rule?" At my school we regularly had peer reviewing sessions for our LA&W papers and met with our professor before our graded ones were due.

Anywho, I'm going to guess that not a whole lot comes of this. I know a few people that violated our honor code and didn't really get more than a slap on the wrist. Some people got caught for signing their friends into class and didn't even get a letter in their file. These people really don't have much to gain from being totally Draconian in their discipline.

Pip
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Pip » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:49 pm

So was the student you traded with in your same class or in another class from the sound of what you wrote.. in which case it is entirely possible that your buddy's professor didn't care if he had someone proof his paper or not.

That said, you now have to make a decision. Do you narc on your buddy for something that you did or simply state that you broke the rule and aren't going to bring anyone else into it with you... frankly that is your best option. If you narc out your buddy I can guarantee you that you will be talked about and not trusted by your classmates for the rest of your time in law school (assuming you aren't kicked out). I say that because I can recall the little whiner in my first year class that claimed people had cheated during an exam in the first year, his reasoning was all hearsay and based on the fact that he scored lower than others and couldn't believe it was because other were just better than he was in the class... within days word was out and he was pretty much an outcast from that point on. You will likely face that yourself if you decide to turn in your buddy that YOU got into this mess.

I also fail to see why you would ever think it was okay for you to have someone else proof read your assignments at all, in undergrad or law school... You are supposed to be showing what you know not what your proof reader or buddy knows. In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:01 am

Pip wrote:So was the student you traded with in your same class or in another class from the sound of what you wrote.. in which case it is entirely possible that your buddy's professor didn't care if he had someone proof his paper or not.

That said, you now have to make a decision. Do you narc on your buddy for something that you did or simply state that you broke the rule and aren't going to bring anyone else into it with you... frankly that is your best option. If you narc out your buddy I can guarantee you that you will be talked about and not trusted by your classmates for the rest of your time in law school (assuming you aren't kicked out). I say that because I can recall the little whiner in my first year class that claimed people had cheated during an exam in the first year, his reasoning was all hearsay and based on the fact that he scored lower than others and couldn't believe it was because other were just better than he was in the class... within days word was out and he was pretty much an outcast from that point on. You will likely face that yourself if you decide to turn in your buddy that YOU got into this mess.

I also fail to see why you would ever think it was okay for you to have someone else proof read your assignments at all, in undergrad or law school... You are supposed to be showing what you know not what your proof reader or buddy knows. In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsf0XynGz8

270910
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby 270910 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:49 am

Pip wrote:In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.


So stupid and wrong that it's physically painful. Enormous amounts of high-caliber lawyering begins with previously produced documents, motions, etc. - and no lawyer worth his salt (or bar license) would let an important piece of work product go without bouncing around ideas and getting it proofed by other trusted sources. The forced isolation of legal research classes is starkly different from the practice of law, and is only imposed to help with the thoroughly unfortunate sorting process instinct in the law school experience.

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Patriot1208
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:42 am

Pip wrote:I also fail to see why you would ever think it was okay for you to have someone else proof read your assignments at all, in undergrad or law school... You are supposed to be showing what you know not what your proof reader or buddy knows. In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.


This is lulzy. Almost every undergrad class encourages people to get their work proofread. Every single Poli Sci, English, History class i've taken at 2 different universities has listed the writing center as in the syllabus for proofreading purposes. Not getting your work proofread is just passing up on free help. Very stupid, and as it seems most law schools don't have this same stupid rule is the OP's.

whymeohgodno
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:38 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
Pip wrote:I also fail to see why you would ever think it was okay for you to have someone else proof read your assignments at all, in undergrad or law school... You are supposed to be showing what you know not what your proof reader or buddy knows. In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.


This is lulzy. Almost every undergrad class encourages people to get their work proofread. Every single Poli Sci, English, History class i've taken at 2 different universities has listed the writing center as in the syllabus for proofreading purposes. Not getting your work proofread is just passing up on free help. Very stupid, and as it seems most law schools don't have this same stupid rule is the OP's.


I've never had anyone proofread my work in undergrad except for a writing class where it was absolutely required that we peer review each other.

But I don't think history/political science papers need proof reading anyways. They are pretty simple and straightforward. I would definitely ask some people on TLS to proofread my PS though.

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St.Remy
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby St.Remy » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:58 am

blong4133 wrote:Today is my birthday and i've spent it an emotional wreck and am very worried about what could happen to me. Keep in mind i am a 1L in his second week of law school.


Happy Birthday

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Patriot1208
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:31 am

whymeohgodno wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Pip wrote:I also fail to see why you would ever think it was okay for you to have someone else proof read your assignments at all, in undergrad or law school... You are supposed to be showing what you know not what your proof reader or buddy knows. In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.


This is lulzy. Almost every undergrad class encourages people to get their work proofread. Every single Poli Sci, English, History class i've taken at 2 different universities has listed the writing center as in the syllabus for proofreading purposes. Not getting your work proofread is just passing up on free help. Very stupid, and as it seems most law schools don't have this same stupid rule is the OP's.


I've never had anyone proofread my work in undergrad except for a writing class where it was absolutely required that we peer review each other.

But I don't think history/political science papers need proof reading anyways. They are pretty simple and straightforward. I would definitely ask some people on TLS to proofread my PS though.


I never said anywhere you had to. I said it was always encouraged. And I think it is dumb to pass up on free help. Either way it still makes it lulzy that pip deems it "not okay" to have someone else proofread your work in undergrad.

Pip
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Re: How bad will this possible honor code violation hurt me?

Postby Pip » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:27 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Pip wrote:I also fail to see why you would ever think it was okay for you to have someone else proof read your assignments at all, in undergrad or law school... You are supposed to be showing what you know not what your proof reader or buddy knows. In the future your client will be looking for someone that can do their own work and not ask mom, dad or someone down the street to do the work for you.


This is lulzy. Almost every undergrad class encourages people to get their work proofread. Every single Poli Sci, English, History class i've taken at 2 different universities has listed the writing center as in the syllabus for proofreading purposes. Not getting your work proofread is just passing up on free help. Very stupid, and as it seems most law schools don't have this same stupid rule is the OP's.


I've never had anyone proofread my work in undergrad except for a writing class where it was absolutely required that we peer review each other.

But I don't think history/political science papers need proof reading anyways. They are pretty simple and straightforward. I would definitely ask some people on TLS to proofread my PS though.


I never said anywhere you had to. I said it was always encouraged. And I think it is dumb to pass up on free help. Either way it still makes it lulzy that pip deems it "not okay" to have someone else proofread your work in undergrad.


The trouble with someone proofing your work is that there is a thin line between mere proof reading and cheating... At one end of the spectrum is where the proof reader says you typed a word, because you hit a "d" instead of and "f" on your keyboard.... at the other end of the spectrum is where the proof reader tell you that your analysis is wrong and sets out the proper analysis of the problem you were supposed to be solving, that is no better than having someone else do your homework.

The simple fact is anyone with a word processor can quickly scan their document for true proof reading help... but when you get someone else, especially another student working on the same problem... well that my friend is cheating. If you find that difficult to understand then I can only assume you were one of the many kids that got through school because their friends help them cheat their way through... good for you pat yourself on the back, but beware that in the real world you wont have people that are working on the same problem you are you will need to be able to work it out by yourself.




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