Considering law school....

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:56 pm

judgeholden wrote:I don't care who does or does what after listening to me.


But honestly, don't be in denial. Law is among the least satisfied professions. Does this mean everyone is unsatisfied? Of course not. Does this mean you will be? Of course not.

But law has always had unrealism attached to it. People think they can enter and come out being respected. Instead they come out and find that only a limited number of jobs are available. They go in thinking they'll do entertainment law or something equally unrealistic and come out and find that they only job they can get is as a PD or doing insurance defense. Rather than waking up every day and rubbing elbows with very bright and very happy people they end up doing shitty work surrounded by morons. They look at their boss, a guy with 3 suits (none of which have ever been cleaned) and four ex-wives. This is not what they expected.
Then there is the guy that actually did make it into entertainment law, only to find out he's pushing the exact same dry, dull paperwork as the employment lawyer he knew, and that the sexy lifestyle is at least two people removed from his position in the industry. And ultimately he's feeling furious that he's working his ass off to make rich, unworthy morons richer at his own expense.

This is what happens to attorneys. They get stuck in dull, boring jobs that weren't what they wanted. They get stuck in areas of law they don't like because it was the job offer they received. They can't switch out because, essentially, once you're one kind of attorney you're always one kind of attorney.

Is this everyone? Of course not. Big Law is full of people that care about money and status more than quality of life (and I'm not judging that at all), at least early in their profession, that adore what their jobs give them. Mid law is full of people that find some balance, or start their own firm with a buddy and see it expand to 150 attorneys in 5 different cities. Small law is full of, well, it's full of people that would probably be unhappy anywhere, as well as full of people that feel their jobs have meaning.

So yeah, there are very happy attorneys. Lots of them, maybe. You'll be one, maybe. But the odds are stacked against you. It's consistently among the least happy professions. It's a profession that's designed around antagonism and anger. It rewards these qualities. To write it off saying "everyone hates their job" or "every profession has unhappy people" is retarded. It's like if my nose fell off and you said "everyone has sinus problems from time to time."


I can't care less how unhappy I am, as long as I have the power to make others feel at least equally unhappy as me.
Conversely, if I end up being happy, I would like to have the power to make others feel at least proportionally unhappy as I am happy.

"Oh no! I got stuck working in Insurance defense! This sucks ass! Let me go back to the steel mill or the sugarcane fields! Ooooh Lordie Lordie I'll never roam free like this!"
Jeez, life isn't a Disney movie. You're going to get as much as you put into the profession and it'll only get better as you get older.

Hmm.. maybe I should strive to be a Judge.

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MrKappus
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby MrKappus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:02 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
2014 wrote:Screw law school. I've seen the light and am going to teach elementary school instead so that I can have a meaningful impact on people's lives. $27k/year here I come!



My second grade teacher was a dick so I got a black eye and reported that he did it to me. Then when everybody was in the office(cops, teacher, administrative, parents, etc.), I said: Eh, just kidding.

He died from a heart attack a year later. Making 28k. At a relatively young age... 35-45. Yep.


Sociopathy FTW.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:07 pm

MrKappus wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
2014 wrote:Screw law school. I've seen the light and am going to teach elementary school instead so that I can have a meaningful impact on people's lives. $27k/year here I come!



My second grade teacher was a dick so I got a black eye and reported that he did it to me. Then when everybody was in the office(cops, teacher, administrative, parents, etc.), I said: Eh, just kidding.

He died from a heart attack a year later. Making 28k. At a relatively young age... 35-45. Yep.


Sociopathy FTW.


Never claimed to be a saint.

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MTal
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby MTal » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:14 pm

...

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:56 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
judgeholden wrote:I don't care who does or does what after listening to me.


But honestly, don't be in denial. Law is among the least satisfied professions. Does this mean everyone is unsatisfied? Of course not. Does this mean you will be? Of course not.

But law has always had unrealism attached to it. People think they can enter and come out being respected. Instead they come out and find that only a limited number of jobs are available. They go in thinking they'll do entertainment law or something equally unrealistic and come out and find that they only job they can get is as a PD or doing insurance defense. Rather than waking up every day and rubbing elbows with very bright and very happy people they end up doing shitty work surrounded by morons. They look at their boss, a guy with 3 suits (none of which have ever been cleaned) and four ex-wives. This is not what they expected.
Then there is the guy that actually did make it into entertainment law, only to find out he's pushing the exact same dry, dull paperwork as the employment lawyer he knew, and that the sexy lifestyle is at least two people removed from his position in the industry. And ultimately he's feeling furious that he's working his ass off to make rich, unworthy morons richer at his own expense.

This is what happens to attorneys. They get stuck in dull, boring jobs that weren't what they wanted. They get stuck in areas of law they don't like because it was the job offer they received. They can't switch out because, essentially, once you're one kind of attorney you're always one kind of attorney.

Is this everyone? Of course not. Big Law is full of people that care about money and status more than quality of life (and I'm not judging that at all), at least early in their profession, that adore what their jobs give them. Mid law is full of people that find some balance, or start their own firm with a buddy and see it expand to 150 attorneys in 5 different cities. Small law is full of, well, it's full of people that would probably be unhappy anywhere, as well as full of people that feel their jobs have meaning.

So yeah, there are very happy attorneys. Lots of them, maybe. You'll be one, maybe. But the odds are stacked against you. It's consistently among the least happy professions. It's a profession that's designed around antagonism and anger. It rewards these qualities. To write it off saying "everyone hates their job" or "every profession has unhappy people" is retarded. It's like if my nose fell off and you said "everyone has sinus problems from time to time."


I can't care less how unhappy I am, as long as I have the power to make others feel at least equally unhappy as me.
Conversely, if I end up being happy, I would like to have the power to make others feel at least proportionally unhappy as I am happy.

"Oh no! I got stuck working in Insurance defense! This sucks ass! Let me go back to the steel mill or the sugarcane fields! Ooooh Lordie Lordie I'll never roam free like this!"
Jeez, life isn't a Disney movie. You're going to get as much as you put into the profession and it'll only get better as you get older.

Hmm.. maybe I should strive to be a Judge.




I'm actually extremely happy.
But I've long since quit law.
If we're making assumptions, I'll assume you're still in law school and clearly haven't gotten a whiff of the real world.
Either that or you're one of the fortunate ones in a top 5 school where the real world isn't the same for you as it will be for the OP.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:32 pm

judgeholden wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
judgeholden wrote:I don't care who does or does what after listening to me.


But honestly, don't be in denial. Law is among the least satisfied professions. Does this mean everyone is unsatisfied? Of course not. Does this mean you will be? Of course not.

But law has always had unrealism attached to it. People think they can enter and come out being respected. Instead they come out and find that only a limited number of jobs are available. They go in thinking they'll do entertainment law or something equally unrealistic and come out and find that they only job they can get is as a PD or doing insurance defense. Rather than waking up every day and rubbing elbows with very bright and very happy people they end up doing shitty work surrounded by morons. They look at their boss, a guy with 3 suits (none of which have ever been cleaned) and four ex-wives. This is not what they expected.
Then there is the guy that actually did make it into entertainment law, only to find out he's pushing the exact same dry, dull paperwork as the employment lawyer he knew, and that the sexy lifestyle is at least two people removed from his position in the industry. And ultimately he's feeling furious that he's working his ass off to make rich, unworthy morons richer at his own expense.

This is what happens to attorneys. They get stuck in dull, boring jobs that weren't what they wanted. They get stuck in areas of law they don't like because it was the job offer they received. They can't switch out because, essentially, once you're one kind of attorney you're always one kind of attorney.

Is this everyone? Of course not. Big Law is full of people that care about money and status more than quality of life (and I'm not judging that at all), at least early in their profession, that adore what their jobs give them. Mid law is full of people that find some balance, or start their own firm with a buddy and see it expand to 150 attorneys in 5 different cities. Small law is full of, well, it's full of people that would probably be unhappy anywhere, as well as full of people that feel their jobs have meaning.

So yeah, there are very happy attorneys. Lots of them, maybe. You'll be one, maybe. But the odds are stacked against you. It's consistently among the least happy professions. It's a profession that's designed around antagonism and anger. It rewards these qualities. To write it off saying "everyone hates their job" or "every profession has unhappy people" is retarded. It's like if my nose fell off and you said "everyone has sinus problems from time to time."


I can't care less how unhappy I am, as long as I have the power to make others feel at least equally unhappy as me.
Conversely, if I end up being happy, I would like to have the power to make others feel at least proportionally unhappy as I am happy.

"Oh no! I got stuck working in Insurance defense! This sucks ass! Let me go back to the steel mill or the sugarcane fields! Ooooh Lordie Lordie I'll never roam free like this!"
Jeez, life isn't a Disney movie. You're going to get as much as you put into the profession and it'll only get better as you get older.

Hmm.. maybe I should strive to be a Judge.




I'm actually extremely happy.
But I've long since quit law.
If we're making assumptions, I'll assume you're still in law school and clearly haven't gotten a whiff of the real world.
Either that or you're one of the fortunate ones in a top 5 school where the real world isn't the same for you as it will be for the OP.


I have indeed had this 'whiff' you speak of and the school indeed matters; but if you're lacking in work ethic then you're going to hate your job no matter how good it is.

Besides, I reiterate: I'd much, much rather get paid to do paperwork than to dig holes in the 100 degree sun.

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MrKappus
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby MrKappus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:37 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Never claimed to be a saint.


I didn't call you a non-saint. I called you a sociopath.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:42 pm

MrKappus wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Never claimed to be a saint.


I didn't call you a non-saint. I called you a sociopath.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial ... y_disorder

Lying, stealing, etc. are considered qualities not becoming of saints; which was my point... though, more precisely, I tried to equate sainthood with perfection.

005618502
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby 005618502 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:01 pm

.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:02 pm

jt1341 wrote:.

?

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:45 am

ResolutePear wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
judgeholden wrote:I don't care who does or does what after listening to me.


But honestly, don't be in denial. Law is among the least satisfied professions. Does this mean everyone is unsatisfied? Of course not. Does this mean you will be? Of course not.

But law has always had unrealism attached to it. People think they can enter and come out being respected. Instead they come out and find that only a limited number of jobs are available. They go in thinking they'll do entertainment law or something equally unrealistic and come out and find that they only job they can get is as a PD or doing insurance defense. Rather than waking up every day and rubbing elbows with very bright and very happy people they end up doing shitty work surrounded by morons. They look at their boss, a guy with 3 suits (none of which have ever been cleaned) and four ex-wives. This is not what they expected.
Then there is the guy that actually did make it into entertainment law, only to find out he's pushing the exact same dry, dull paperwork as the employment lawyer he knew, and that the sexy lifestyle is at least two people removed from his position in the industry. And ultimately he's feeling furious that he's working his ass off to make rich, unworthy morons richer at his own expense.

This is what happens to attorneys. They get stuck in dull, boring jobs that weren't what they wanted. They get stuck in areas of law they don't like because it was the job offer they received. They can't switch out because, essentially, once you're one kind of attorney you're always one kind of attorney.

Is this everyone? Of course not. Big Law is full of people that care about money and status more than quality of life (and I'm not judging that at all), at least early in their profession, that adore what their jobs give them. Mid law is full of people that find some balance, or start their own firm with a buddy and see it expand to 150 attorneys in 5 different cities. Small law is full of, well, it's full of people that would probably be unhappy anywhere, as well as full of people that feel their jobs have meaning.

So yeah, there are very happy attorneys. Lots of them, maybe. You'll be one, maybe. But the odds are stacked against you. It's consistently among the least happy professions. It's a profession that's designed around antagonism and anger. It rewards these qualities. To write it off saying "everyone hates their job" or "every profession has unhappy people" is retarded. It's like if my nose fell off and you said "everyone has sinus problems from time to time."


I can't care less how unhappy I am, as long as I have the power to make others feel at least equally unhappy as me.
Conversely, if I end up being happy, I would like to have the power to make others feel at least proportionally unhappy as I am happy.

"Oh no! I got stuck working in Insurance defense! This sucks ass! Let me go back to the steel mill or the sugarcane fields! Ooooh Lordie Lordie I'll never roam free like this!"
Jeez, life isn't a Disney movie. You're going to get as much as you put into the profession and it'll only get better as you get older.

Hmm.. maybe I should strive to be a Judge.




I'm actually extremely happy.
But I've long since quit law.
If we're making assumptions, I'll assume you're still in law school and clearly haven't gotten a whiff of the real world.
Either that or you're one of the fortunate ones in a top 5 school where the real world isn't the same for you as it will be for the OP.


I have indeed had this 'whiff' you speak of and the school indeed matters; but if you're lacking in work ethic then you're going to hate your job no matter how good it is.

Besides, I reiterate: I'd much, much rather get paid to do paperwork than to dig holes in the 100 degree sun.


Don't see how work ethic even factors into it.


Regardless, it's always interesting how people that dig holes and the like tend to have high job satisfaction ratings. Higher than most other careers. Not much of a surprise, actually, though. When you dig a hole, or plant a tree, or mow a lawn, or paint a house, you get immediate satisfaction. Ever tiny thing you do results in a visible change towards your final goal. In the end you have something very notably different.
Pushing the same papers day in and day out isn't like that. Again, why I describe law in particular as sisyphean. Other jobs, are, too, and some areas of law are much more than others.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:04 pm

judgeholden wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
I'm actually extremely happy.
But I've long since quit law.
If we're making assumptions, I'll assume you're still in law school and clearly haven't gotten a whiff of the real world.
Either that or you're one of the fortunate ones in a top 5 school where the real world isn't the same for you as it will be for the OP.


I have indeed had this 'whiff' you speak of and the school indeed matters; but if you're lacking in work ethic then you're going to hate your job no matter how good it is.

Besides, I reiterate: I'd much, much rather get paid to do paperwork than to dig holes in the 100 degree sun.


Don't see how work ethic even factors into it.


Regardless, it's always interesting how people that dig holes and the like tend to have high job satisfaction ratings. Higher than most other careers. Not much of a surprise, actually, though. When you dig a hole, or plant a tree, or mow a lawn, or paint a house, you get immediate satisfaction. Ever tiny thing you do results in a visible change towards your final goal. In the end you have something very notably different.
Pushing the same papers day in and day out isn't like that. Again, why I describe law in particular as sisyphean. Other jobs, are, too, and some areas of law are much more than others.


Hm, perhaps you have a point since I don't have too much experience working those types of jobs.

The bulk of my work experience has been based in projects. Do something, document it. Do something else, document that. Six months down the road, compress it together and see what you get. You either have success or failure. If it's failure, back to the blackboard from step one.
So
A bit more complicated than that, but that's the jist.

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FlanAl
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby FlanAl » Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:46 am

Judgeholden I think it would be good to qualify your views on the legal profession by telling us what new profession is so rewarding. I mean if you were doing crim law and now you work for the ASPCA saving kittens then yeah I can see how you would be super happy.

Also not really sure about your comments on the ditch diggers. From the people I know in that line (from high end contractors to self employed handy-men) all are doing super shitty due to the economy these days. They'd probably be satisfied with their work if their was any. And even though physical labor is satisfying, not being able to afford good health insurance when your back and knees are shot from years of ditch digger is not so satisfying.

Also it would be super nice to hear from anyone who really enjoys their career (other than my philosophy professors you'd be the first)

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:29 am

FlanAl wrote:Judgeholden I think it would be good to qualify your views on the legal profession by telling us what new profession is so rewarding. I mean if you were doing crim law and now you work for the ASPCA saving kittens then yeah I can see how you would be super happy.

Also not really sure about your comments on the ditch diggers. From the people I know in that line (from high end contractors to self employed handy-men) all are doing super shitty due to the economy these days. They'd probably be satisfied with their work if their was any. And even though physical labor is satisfying, not being able to afford good health insurance when your back and knees are shot from years of ditch digger is not so satisfying.

Also it would be super nice to hear from anyone who really enjoys their career (other than my philosophy professors you'd be the first)


I didn't mean to imply that digging ditches is better than other jobs, just that the satisfaction is extremely high. Corporate management consultants have made small fortunes studying this and finding ways to take concepts and apply them to other jobs. It's kind of obvious, though, that humans feel better when their end product is tangible and meaningful. Some prisons used to have punishment where someone would dig a ditch, fill it in, redig it, etc., as it was worse than having them do construction. Dan Ariely's new book has a chapter on a study he did involving having grad students build legos, proving the same point.


As for what I do, corporate strategy for a luxury retail company. Corporate strategy is an interesting beast. We're in some ways a bit of a rogue group. We're small, we don't really report to anyone in the conventional sense, and we have a certain prestige that puts us level with people outranking us. We solve problems that aren't our own and we're so far removed from the problems that it's easier to see the flaws and the solutions (people will come to us after working for lengthy periods of time, going down one path, committed to that path and unknowingly limiting their view to their path, and we'll come in and see all the wrong turns as we're taking a fresh view from the start.)
It's surprisingly fun to sit around and brainstorm high level ideas then pull data to prove they're right.

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St.Remy
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby St.Remy » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:37 am

judgeholden wrote:It's kind of obvious, though, that humans feel better when their end product is tangible and meaningful . . .
As for what I do, corporate strategy for a luxury retail company. . . we're so far removed from the problems . . . sit around and brainstorm high level ideas.


Man I'm sorry you don't actually produce anything tangible, you must not be satisfied with your job. If you look hard enough maybe you can find a respectable job as a ditch digger, though in this economy who knows?

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:04 pm

St.Remy wrote:
judgeholden wrote:It's kind of obvious, though, that humans feel better when their end product is tangible and meaningful . . .
As for what I do, corporate strategy for a luxury retail company. . . we're so far removed from the problems . . . sit around and brainstorm high level ideas.


Man I'm sorry you don't actually produce anything tangible, you must not be satisfied with your job. If you look hard enough maybe you can find a respectable job as a ditch digger, though in this economy who knows?


Someone failed reading comprehension 101.

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St.Remy
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby St.Remy » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:16 pm

judgeholden wrote:
St.Remy wrote:
judgeholden wrote:It's kind of obvious, though, that humans feel better when their end product is tangible and meaningful . . .
As for what I do, corporate strategy for a luxury retail company. . . we're so far removed from the problems . . . sit around and brainstorm high level ideas.


Man I'm sorry you don't actually produce anything tangible, you must not be satisfied with your job. If you look hard enough maybe you can find a respectable job as a ditch digger, though in this economy who knows?


Someone failed reading comprehension 101.


Just pointing out that you set the conditions for a job being fulfilling as a job where you actually produce something that you consider important, yet you feel fulfilled by working a job where you produce nothing tangible and you have no personal stake in the problems you are trying to solve. Either you are being disingenuous, stupid, or intentionally narrow minded.

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Re: Considering law school....

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:53 pm

St.Remy wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
St.Remy wrote:
judgeholden wrote:It's kind of obvious, though, that humans feel better when their end product is tangible and meaningful . . .
As for what I do, corporate strategy for a luxury retail company. . . we're so far removed from the problems . . . sit around and brainstorm high level ideas.


Man I'm sorry you don't actually produce anything tangible, you must not be satisfied with your job. If you look hard enough maybe you can find a respectable job as a ditch digger, though in this economy who knows?


Someone failed reading comprehension 101.


Just pointing out that you set the conditions for a job being fulfilling as a job where you actually produce something that you consider important, yet you feel fulfilled by working a job where you produce nothing tangible and you have no personal stake in the problems you are trying to solve. Either you are being disingenuous, stupid, or intentionally narrow minded.


Wow. I have to say that was an epic burn.

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FlanAl
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby FlanAl » Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:37 pm

Thanks Judgeholden its super nice as a recent college grad to hear from someone who doesn't hate their career. Did you have a background in Business management before transitioning to this field? Did you go back and do an MBA after law? Thanks Again

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:06 pm

St.Remy wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
St.Remy wrote:
judgeholden wrote:It's kind of obvious, though, that humans feel better when their end product is tangible and meaningful . . .
As for what I do, corporate strategy for a luxury retail company. . . we're so far removed from the problems . . . sit around and brainstorm high level ideas.


Man I'm sorry you don't actually produce anything tangible, you must not be satisfied with your job. If you look hard enough maybe you can find a respectable job as a ditch digger, though in this economy who knows?


Someone failed reading comprehension 101.


Just pointing out that you set the conditions for a job being fulfilling as a job where you actually produce something that you consider important, yet you feel fulfilled by working a job where you produce nothing tangible and you have no personal stake in the problems you are trying to solve. Either you are being disingenuous, stupid, or intentionally narrow minded.


"Epic burn" my ass.

You really, really failed to read.
I never said the only way to be fulfilled is actually producing something, but I did it's a factor.

I do produce things that are tangible. I'm currently drafting a proposal for a joint venture. If accepted it will be the biggest JV in our company's history, one very full of joint ventures. It will be immediately apparent on our bottom line. It'll be enormous.
My lack of a personal stake also helps. It means I don't get caught up in the details. Here's how the JV process works:
1) I come up with the high level proposal. I don't get stuck on small details, I just draft what we want and what we want to offer. I outline priorities. I come up with back of the envelope economic potential.
2) If the proposal is accepted internally it gets handed over to the bankers, who hammer out the actual deal.
3) If the deal is accepted by the third party, lawyers come in and write the dozens of pages of paperwork.

I'm doing the most entertaining and creative part of the deal. It's very satisfying. And, if the deal falls through, all the work I've done is instantly valuable as a competitive analysis of the company I've been researching. There's no lost work. There's no repetition. I'm not doing the same thing over and over, and rarely is the work I'm done risking going into the trash without ever being useful.



FlanAl - got the MBA after law.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:19 pm

judgeholden wrote:"Epic burn" my ass.


...do you have a video of that so I can youTube it? Nothing wrong with going viral. 8)

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johnnyutah
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby johnnyutah » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:20 pm

judgeholden wrote:I do produce things that are tangible. I'm currently drafting a proposal for a joint venture. If accepted it will be the biggest JV in our company's history, one very full of joint ventures. It will be immediately apparent on our bottom line. It'll be enormous.
My lack of a personal stake also helps. It means I don't get caught up in the details. Here's how the JV process works:
1) I come up with the high level proposal. I don't get stuck on small details, I just draft what we want and what we want to offer. I outline priorities. I come up with back of the envelope economic potential.
2) If the proposal is accepted internally it gets handed over to the bankers, who hammer out the actual deal.
3) If the deal is accepted by the third party, lawyers come in and write the dozens of pages of paperwork.

lol @ the idea that this qualifies as producing something tangible




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