Considering law school....

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Zugzwang
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby Zugzwang » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:25 pm

Barbie wrote:I would be interested to know what percentage of lawyers actually spend a substantial amount of time in the courts. At the firm I work for, it's pretty rare.

2%, like lowfat milk

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:27 pm

2014 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
2014 wrote:Screw law school. I've seen the light and am going to teach elementary school instead so that I can have a meaningful impact on people's lives. $27k/year here I come!



My second grade teacher was a dick so I got a black eye and reported that he did it to me. Then when everybody was in the office(cops, teacher, administrative, parents, etc.), I said: Eh, just kidding.

He died from a heart attack a year later. Making 28k. At a relatively young age... 35-45. Yep.

Did you give yourself the black eye or did you make the most out of someone else giving you one?


Made the most out of somebody giving me one.

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jayn3
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby jayn3 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:38 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
2014 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
2014 wrote:Screw law school. I've seen the light and am going to teach elementary school instead so that I can have a meaningful impact on people's lives. $27k/year here I come!



My second grade teacher was a dick so I got a black eye and reported that he did it to me. Then when everybody was in the office(cops, teacher, administrative, parents, etc.), I said: Eh, just kidding.

He died from a heart attack a year later. Making 28k. At a relatively young age... 35-45. Yep.

Did you give yourself the black eye or did you make the most out of someone else giving you one?


Made the most out of somebody giving me one.

wait, that wasn't a sick joke? :|

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ResolutePear
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ResolutePear » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:44 pm

jayn3 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
2014 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
My second grade teacher was a dick so I got a black eye and reported that he did it to me. Then when everybody was in the office(cops, teacher, administrative, parents, etc.), I said: Eh, just kidding.

He died from a heart attack a year later. Making 28k. At a relatively young age... 35-45. Yep.

Did you give yourself the black eye or did you make the most out of someone else giving you one?


Made the most out of somebody giving me one.

wait, that wasn't a sick joke? :|


It's not. Remember, this was 2nd grade and my moral compass was way off.

I'm not proud or anything of it, I just wanted to illustrate a point: That's how bad elementary school can be. No doubt if it was my word against his at the end of the day.. he would of lost his job. In that aspect, I guess my moral compass wasn't too off. Still fucked up though.

And yeah, he's really dead. Poor guy.

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jayn3
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby jayn3 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:06 pm

ResolutePear wrote:It's not. Remember, this was 2nd grade and my moral compass was way off.

I'm not proud or anything of it, I just wanted to illustrate a point: That's how bad elementary school can be. No doubt if it was my word against his at the end of the day.. he would of lost his job. In that aspect, I guess my moral compass wasn't too off. Still fucked up though.

And yeah, he's really dead. Poor guy.

not that this will make you feel better, but here's a snapshot of me at age 5:

kiddie pool. second in line to jump in. little boy in front of me is taking forever....so i push him. then i realize he can't swim, jump in, pull him out. his mom comes rushing over to me and applauds me as a hero on the spot, and every time we saw her at the grocery store for the next two years.

god i was glad when we moved out of state.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby Patriot1208 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:10 pm

jayn3 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:It's not. Remember, this was 2nd grade and my moral compass was way off.

I'm not proud or anything of it, I just wanted to illustrate a point: That's how bad elementary school can be. No doubt if it was my word against his at the end of the day.. he would of lost his job. In that aspect, I guess my moral compass wasn't too off. Still fucked up though.

And yeah, he's really dead. Poor guy.

not that this will make you feel better, but here's a snapshot of me at age 5:

kiddie pool. second in line to jump in. little boy in front of me is taking forever....so i push him. then i realize he can't swim, jump in, pull him out. his mom comes rushing over to me and applauds me as a hero on the spot, and every time we saw her at the grocery store for the next two years.

god i was glad when we moved out of state.


I just shit in the pool at that age.

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moopness
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby moopness » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:16 pm

yeeee
Image

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Grizz
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby Grizz » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:25 pm

Zugzwang wrote:
Barbie wrote:I would be interested to know what percentage of lawyers actually spend a substantial amount of time in the courts. At the firm I work for, it's pretty rare.

2%, like lowfat milk

Great username and 'tar.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby johnnyutah » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:54 pm

NoJob wrote:It is an awful job/life.

You ever represented someone in court or written a successful brief? Lawyering is fun as shit, dude, at least if you're doing it right.

GoBroncos22!
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby GoBroncos22! » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:13 pm

NoJob wrote:For any 0L or incoming 1L, spend two days in any major courthouse and witness the demeanor of the attorneys around u. Are they happy? Some are, but the vast majority exude their anguish. I am saying this because even if you get through law school, you have the misery of the profession. There are joys of being a lawyer: being an expert in your area of law. But, there is a reason that JDs have some of the highest rate of substance abuse of any profession. It is an awful job/life. If you want it, go for it, but for most, you will be disappointed assuming you have the grades.

Remember that once you have the JD, you have closed the door on anything other than being a lawyer with the debt.


Thank you for that most valuable and brilliant insight into the inner workings of a legal profession. I absolutely NEVER would of thought of that. I totally forgot every other profession comes with a perfect and happy life. I guess its time to withdraw my apps

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ZachOda
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby ZachOda » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:39 pm

I think I've finally figured out NoJob's plan

Step 1: Make sure no one wants to go to law school
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit
Last edited by ZachOda on Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby bk1 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:41 pm

moopness wrote:Image


My new favorite pic of the week.

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appaws
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby appaws » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:37 am

You guys can't fool me. Being a lawyer is fucking fun, and I am gonna be like Jack McCoy and spend my days kicking ass and locking people up.

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:00 am

GoBroncos22! wrote:
NoJob wrote:For any 0L or incoming 1L, spend two days in any major courthouse and witness the demeanor of the attorneys around u. Are they happy? Some are, but the vast majority exude their anguish. I am saying this because even if you get through law school, you have the misery of the profession. There are joys of being a lawyer: being an expert in your area of law. But, there is a reason that JDs have some of the highest rate of substance abuse of any profession. It is an awful job/life. If you want it, go for it, but for most, you will be disappointed assuming you have the grades.

Remember that once you have the JD, you have closed the door on anything other than being a lawyer with the debt.


Thank you for that most valuable and brilliant insight into the inner workings of a legal profession. I absolutely NEVER would of thought of that. I totally forgot every other profession comes with a perfect and happy life. I guess its time to withdraw my apps



You're being simple.

How many damn times do professional organizations need to release stats about how law is one of the unhappiest professions before people stop making stupid posts like this?

Why does everyone hate law?
1) Debt to return. It doesn't add up and is getting worse.
2) Job prospects. This isn't even considering stupid shit like doc review and staff attorney positions that have affected recent grads. Even back in the day there were issues. What kind of law you practice has significantly less to do with what you want and far more to do with what will take you. Most people go to law school with grand dreams of environmental or entertainment law, or being some hot shot white collar defense attorney (not realizing all these jobs suck, anyway), and end up getting no job offers other than insurance defense or real estate law. So... they're an ID or RE attorney for their entire lives. And miserable the whole way through.
3) Anger and frustration. Have you been in any kind of largish firm? It's all yelling and screaming. Your client is stupid. Your opposition is stupid. Their client is stupider than all. It's infuriating. And it's not going to change. The clients are stupid due to ignorance of the law and processes combined with unrealistic expectations and a lack of incentive to tell the truth. Your opposition is stupid because being stupid pays off as a valid defense, plus it keeps you from getting any kind of malpractice suit.
4) You're essentially Sisyphus. Finish one case and five identical are waiting. Criminal is worse. Prosecute/defend one rapist drug dealer and 20 more are waiting. When you're done the original is back in front of you, having gotten out of jail and done it again.
5) Calendar call. Having to do it in several courts in several counties in the same morning. Hours of sitting in the courtroom doing nothing at all.


Just google least happy professions. Law is always atop the lists. Hell, a few years back Forbes claimed that 77% of attorneys weren't happy with their careers and 85% wouldn't let their children become attorneys. I think that's pretty telling. Everyone I know that has a JD hates their life. Everyone I know that has a phd or an MBA absolutely loves theirs.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:04 am

judgeholden wrote:
GoBroncos22! wrote:
NoJob wrote:For any 0L or incoming 1L, spend two days in any major courthouse and witness the demeanor of the attorneys around u. Are they happy? Some are, but the vast majority exude their anguish. I am saying this because even if you get through law school, you have the misery of the profession. There are joys of being a lawyer: being an expert in your area of law. But, there is a reason that JDs have some of the highest rate of substance abuse of any profession. It is an awful job/life. If you want it, go for it, but for most, you will be disappointed assuming you have the grades.

Remember that once you have the JD, you have closed the door on anything other than being a lawyer with the debt.


Thank you for that most valuable and brilliant insight into the inner workings of a legal profession. I absolutely NEVER would of thought of that. I totally forgot every other profession comes with a perfect and happy life. I guess its time to withdraw my apps



You're being simple.

How many damn times do professional organizations need to release stats about how law is one of the unhappiest professions before people stop making stupid posts like this?

Why does everyone hate law?
1) Debt to return. It doesn't add up and is getting worse.
2) Job prospects. This isn't even considering stupid shit like doc review and staff attorney positions that have affected recent grads. Even back in the day there were issues. What kind of law you practice has significantly less to do with what you want and far more to do with what will take you. Most people go to law school with grand dreams of environmental or entertainment law, or being some hot shot white collar defense attorney (not realizing all these jobs suck, anyway), and end up getting no job offers other than insurance defense or real estate law. So... they're an ID or RE attorney for their entire lives. And miserable the whole way through.
3) Anger and frustration. Have you been in any kind of largish firm? It's all yelling and screaming. Your client is stupid. Your opposition is stupid. Their client is stupider than all. It's infuriating. And it's not going to change. The clients are stupid due to ignorance of the law and processes combined with unrealistic expectations and a lack of incentive to tell the truth. Your opposition is stupid because being stupid pays off as a valid defense, plus it keeps you from getting any kind of malpractice suit.
4) You're essentially Sisyphus. Finish one case and five identical are waiting. Criminal is worse. Prosecute/defend one rapist drug dealer and 20 more are waiting. When you're done the original is back in front of you, having gotten out of jail and done it again.
5) Calendar call. Having to do it in several courts in several counties in the same morning. Hours of sitting in the courtroom doing nothing at all.


Just google least happy professions. Law is always atop the lists. Hell, a few years back Forbes claimed that 77% of attorneys weren't happy with their careers and 85% wouldn't let their children become attorneys. I think that's pretty telling. Everyone I know that has a JD hates their life. Everyone I know that has a phd or an MBA absolutely loves theirs.


Lol outed as a troll. You will now never be taken seriously.

silveri
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby silveri » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:37 am

If you are interested in an informed perspective, and one that offers some suggestions on how to avoid common reasons for unhappiness in the legal profession, from an actual attorney and judge, check out:

How to be happy, healthy, and ethical in an unhappy, unhealthy, and unethical profession, --LinkRemoved--

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:53 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
GoBroncos22! wrote:
NoJob wrote:For any 0L or incoming 1L, spend two days in any major courthouse and witness the demeanor of the attorneys around u. Are they happy? Some are, but the vast majority exude their anguish. I am saying this because even if you get through law school, you have the misery of the profession. There are joys of being a lawyer: being an expert in your area of law. But, there is a reason that JDs have some of the highest rate of substance abuse of any profession. It is an awful job/life. If you want it, go for it, but for most, you will be disappointed assuming you have the grades.

Remember that once you have the JD, you have closed the door on anything other than being a lawyer with the debt.


Thank you for that most valuable and brilliant insight into the inner workings of a legal profession. I absolutely NEVER would of thought of that. I totally forgot every other profession comes with a perfect and happy life. I guess its time to withdraw my apps



You're being simple.

How many damn times do professional organizations need to release stats about how law is one of the unhappiest professions before people stop making stupid posts like this?

Why does everyone hate law?
1) Debt to return. It doesn't add up and is getting worse.
2) Job prospects. This isn't even considering stupid shit like doc review and staff attorney positions that have affected recent grads. Even back in the day there were issues. What kind of law you practice has significantly less to do with what you want and far more to do with what will take you. Most people go to law school with grand dreams of environmental or entertainment law, or being some hot shot white collar defense attorney (not realizing all these jobs suck, anyway), and end up getting no job offers other than insurance defense or real estate law. So... they're an ID or RE attorney for their entire lives. And miserable the whole way through.
3) Anger and frustration. Have you been in any kind of largish firm? It's all yelling and screaming. Your client is stupid. Your opposition is stupid. Their client is stupider than all. It's infuriating. And it's not going to change. The clients are stupid due to ignorance of the law and processes combined with unrealistic expectations and a lack of incentive to tell the truth. Your opposition is stupid because being stupid pays off as a valid defense, plus it keeps you from getting any kind of malpractice suit.
4) You're essentially Sisyphus. Finish one case and five identical are waiting. Criminal is worse. Prosecute/defend one rapist drug dealer and 20 more are waiting. When you're done the original is back in front of you, having gotten out of jail and done it again.
5) Calendar call. Having to do it in several courts in several counties in the same morning. Hours of sitting in the courtroom doing nothing at all.


Just google least happy professions. Law is always atop the lists. Hell, a few years back Forbes claimed that 77% of attorneys weren't happy with their careers and 85% wouldn't let their children become attorneys. I think that's pretty telling. Everyone I know that has a JD hates their life. Everyone I know that has a phd or an MBA absolutely loves theirs.


Lol outed as a troll. You will now never be taken seriously.


lol I'm a licensed attorney that passed two bars and has already retired to a more lucrative non-legal career.
You're either in law school or considering it.
Joke's on you!

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Grizz
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby Grizz » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:21 pm

judgeholden wrote:Prosecute/defend one rapist drug dealer and 20 more are waiting. When you're done the original is back in front of you, having gotten out of jail and done it again.


What's wrong with repeat business?

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IzziesGal
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby IzziesGal » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:25 pm

That picture of the bear is HILARIOUS. We should just end the thread with that.

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:29 pm

rad law wrote:
judgeholden wrote:Prosecute/defend one rapist drug dealer and 20 more are waiting. When you're done the original is back in front of you, having gotten out of jail and done it again.


What's wrong with repeat business?


It's depressing. Same bad things happening to the same people. Patterns no one can get around. Constant misery.

Criminal, as a whole, is horribly depressing. You see the worst of humanity. Not the worst sides of people, that comes out in family, but just the worst of humanity.

I was involved with one lengthy, high-profile murder trial. The end was devastating. The young defendant was found guilty, much to the surprise of every single person in the courtroom. He walked out in handcuffs, knowing he'd be over 60 before he was a free man again. His family clung to him in tears, knowing most of them would die before they saw him without a wall of glass between them. The victim's family were also in tears, as this put an end to that part of the grieving, to that part of their anger, but it doesn't bring their son/brother/boyfriend back.

It's not in me. That much constant misery and sorrow, that kind of deal where there are no winners and everyone walks away from the table miserable? Fuck it. It's not in my blood. There are too many jobs that avoid misery almost altogether to take a job that surrounds you by the deepest misery constantly.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:39 pm

judgeholden wrote:
rad law wrote:
judgeholden wrote:Prosecute/defend one rapist drug dealer and 20 more are waiting. When you're done the original is back in front of you, having gotten out of jail and done it again.


What's wrong with repeat business?


It's depressing. Same bad things happening to the same people. Patterns no one can get around. Constant misery.

Criminal, as a whole, is horribly depressing. You see the worst of humanity. Not the worst sides of people, that comes out in family, but just the worst of humanity.

I was involved with one lengthy, high-profile murder trial. The end was devastating. The young defendant was found guilty, much to the surprise of every single person in the courtroom. He walked out in handcuffs, knowing he'd be over 60 before he was a free man again. His family clung to him in tears, knowing most of them would die before they saw him without a wall of glass between them. The victim's family were also in tears, as this put an end to that part of the grieving, to that part of their anger, but it doesn't bring their son/brother/boyfriend back.

It's not in me. That much constant misery and sorrow, that kind of deal where there are no winners and everyone walks away from the table miserable? Fuck it. It's not in my blood. There are too many jobs that avoid misery almost altogether to take a job that surrounds you by the deepest misery constantly.


Honestly, I'm only an intern but I see a lot of the things you are talking about on a daily basis, and it doesn't bother me at all. I feel pity for a lot of these guys, but I also feel a sense that i'm involved in something that is good.

GoBroncos22!
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby GoBroncos22! » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:50 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
rad law wrote:
judgeholden wrote:Prosecute/defend one rapist drug dealer and 20 more are waiting. When you're done the original is back in front of you, having gotten out of jail and done it again.


What's wrong with repeat business?


It's depressing. Same bad things happening to the same people. Patterns no one can get around. Constant misery.

Criminal, as a whole, is horribly depressing. You see the worst of humanity. Not the worst sides of people, that comes out in family, but just the worst of humanity.

I was involved with one lengthy, high-profile murder trial. The end was devastating. The young defendant was found guilty, much to the surprise of every single person in the courtroom. He walked out in handcuffs, knowing he'd be over 60 before he was a free man again. His family clung to him in tears, knowing most of them would die before they saw him without a wall of glass between them. The victim's family were also in tears, as this put an end to that part of the grieving, to that part of their anger, but it doesn't bring their son/brother/boyfriend back.

It's not in me. That much constant misery and sorrow, that kind of deal where there are no winners and everyone walks away from the table miserable? Fuck it. It's not in my blood. There are too many jobs that avoid misery almost altogether to take a job that surrounds you by the deepest misery constantly.


Honestly, I'm only an intern but I see a lot of the things you are talking about on a daily basis, and it doesn't bother me at all. I feel pity for a lot of these guys, but I also feel a sense that i'm involved in something that is good.


+1 This is what I hope to experience in a legal career. And who knows, maybe the OP is entirely correct and I will get burnt out of a legal profession in 1 year or 40 years. Just because one has a JD doesnt mean they have to practice there whole life.

judgeholden
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:57 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
rad law wrote:
judgeholden wrote:Prosecute/defend one rapist drug dealer and 20 more are waiting. When you're done the original is back in front of you, having gotten out of jail and done it again.


What's wrong with repeat business?


It's depressing. Same bad things happening to the same people. Patterns no one can get around. Constant misery.

Criminal, as a whole, is horribly depressing. You see the worst of humanity. Not the worst sides of people, that comes out in family, but just the worst of humanity.

I was involved with one lengthy, high-profile murder trial. The end was devastating. The young defendant was found guilty, much to the surprise of every single person in the courtroom. He walked out in handcuffs, knowing he'd be over 60 before he was a free man again. His family clung to him in tears, knowing most of them would die before they saw him without a wall of glass between them. The victim's family were also in tears, as this put an end to that part of the grieving, to that part of their anger, but it doesn't bring their son/brother/boyfriend back.

It's not in me. That much constant misery and sorrow, that kind of deal where there are no winners and everyone walks away from the table miserable? Fuck it. It's not in my blood. There are too many jobs that avoid misery almost altogether to take a job that surrounds you by the deepest misery constantly.


Honestly, I'm only an intern but I see a lot of the things you are talking about on a daily basis, and it doesn't bother me at all. I feel pity for a lot of these guys, but I also feel a sense that i'm involved in something that is good.


I had that feeling in the clinic, where there was detachment from it and where I was doing work only in the initial part of trials.
I didn't have it after law school.

Again, you need that stomach for it.
Once I was involved start to finish it ended. It was just calendar call, status review, calendar call, status review, calendar call, status review, calendar call, plea taken, guy in jail, guy paroled, guy back in court, calendar call, status review, calendar call, status review... Between the misery, the scumbags, and the cycle of the same people constantly back and pleading out, just wasn't for me.
It is for some people. If you're that kind it can be exhilarating. To me, though, Bonfire of the Vanities didn't even begin to explain the horribleness of criminal court, but I also felt the calendar calls were the worst part, bar none.

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SteelReserve
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby SteelReserve » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:58 pm

ITT: People who have never worked in a law firm bury heads in sand and pretend they will enjoy their jobs in the vague hope that they are somehow different from the 90% of humanity that finds no peace, joy, or meaning in sitting at their desks for 10 hours per day.

But in all seriousness and less sarcasm, Judgeholden, interesting posts. Your perspective is interesting, but I think for a lot of individuals criminal law is the only somewhat-interesting field since there is less pre-trial paperwork and less tedious, frustrating discovery disputes, and lawyers actually get to be "lawyers" in the sense that they actually appear in court instead of being desk jockeys staring at their computer screens for 10+ hours billing hours on Lexis and typing out paper.

Have you practiced in civil litigation Judgeholden? I consider you lucky as hell just to have the chance to dislike your job on moral or philosophical grounds as opposed to civil litigators who hate their jobs because of the actual daily practice conditions, that is, sitting at a desk staring at computer screen and pushing endless piles of paper that never go away all while inching daily closer to death.

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FlanAl
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Re: Considering law school....

Postby FlanAl » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:06 pm

Find me a professional in today's economy who loves their job. Seriously. After reading all these "oh woe is me" being a lawyer sucks things I got kinda down on going to law school. So I put in a lot of effort into trying to find someone who loves their job. Granted I live on the west coast and don't know any investment bankers (they seem to have a good time, and since troll tells you to get an MBA I'm assuming they think its a great time too), but every single person I've talked to has told me NOT to go into their field. From wealthy entrepreneurs to my mailman, elementary and high school teachers to family therapists and even a marine biologist and two pilots (the coolest jobs ever) and I have yet to meet a single professional who says "You should try to break into my field its great, I love going to work every morning." In fact they all hate their jobs.

I really hate all this complaining about being a lawyer. OP I say give your job another 2 years and you'll be on some other forum telling people not to do it.




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