Marketability of HYS degree

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CordeliusX
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Marketability of HYS degree

Postby CordeliusX » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:20 am

I'm curious if these are set apart in terms of post JD career opportunities. I don't have a good transfer shot but... I would like to think a JD doesn't limit one to solely being a lawyer.

On that topic is it fair to say even HYS is pointless unless you are sure you want to practice law?

Fwiw I grew up being told the JD is marketable which lingers in my psyche...

Pip
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby Pip » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:21 am

HYS sets you into a different plane when you are first looking for a job. Later on the alumni network can open doors... but if you didn't want to practice law and were more business oriented you would be better off at Harvard or Stanford getting an MBA, it would take you 1 less year and would open more doors.

A JD really only has more options later in life because the ones that are successful will have developed a network and the funds to do other things, but don't think there is a large market for JDs in all parts of business, there aren't.

NoJob
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby NoJob » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:13 pm

Pip wrote:HYS sets you into a different plane when you are first looking for a job. Later on the alumni network can open doors... but if you didn't want to practice law and were more business oriented you would be better off at Harvard or Stanford getting an MBA, it would take you 1 less year and would open more doors.

A JD really only has more options later in life because the ones that are successful will have developed a network and the funds to do other things, but don't think there is a large market for JDs in all parts of business, there aren't.


HYS sets you apart from the rest. No doubt. This is one of three exceptions to my "don't-go-to-law-school" position. The other two being connections and a free ride.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:49 pm

I can't answer the OP's question, but I do notice several law schools are moving toward more practical law degrees. Northwestern is probably the leader in this area with Duke & Harvard following suit. Northwestern University School of Law accepts the GMAT in lieu of the LSAT & encourages group projects & teamwork in its law school curriculum. That, combined with the work experience near-requirement for admission plus an admission interview likely accounts for Northwestern's top place performance in the National Law Journal's biglaw placement rankings. Harvard Law nudged Constitutional Law out of required status to a second year elective in an effort to make its law degree more practical (which I interpret as meaning "more MBA like"). Duke, somewhat akin to Northwestern, encourages teamwork & co-operation among its law students while encouraging law students to earn dual graduate degrees. Northwestern law students are free to take MBA courses in the famed Kellogg School of Business which is ranked among the top three MBA programs in the country by USNews. Northwestern is also the most noteworthy leader in shortening the time required to earn a JD degree with its two full year length program for experienced executives.

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AngryAvocado
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby AngryAvocado » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:25 pm

Pip wrote:HYS sets you into a different plane when you are first looking for a job. Later on the alumni network can open doors... but if you didn't want to practice law and were more business oriented you would be better off at Harvard or Stanford getting an MBA, it would take you 1 less year and would open more doors.

A JD really only has more options later in life because the ones that are successful will have developed a network and the funds to do other things, but don't think there is a large market for JDs in all parts of business, there aren't.


It's not exactly easy to just hop right into a top tier MBA program. If you don't have a few years of pretty exceptional work experience to go along with a great GMAT and decent GPA, it's pretty damn tough to get into those programs. And good luck finding a nice gig at an investment bank, big consulting firm, etc. in this economy right outta college.

judgeholden
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:59 am

AngryAvocado wrote:
Pip wrote:And good luck finding a nice gig at an investment bank, big consulting firm, etc. in this economy right outta college.


If you get into a top MBA program than this isn't too big of a deal. Investment banks hired fewer this year, true, as did consulting firms, but if you're in a top 10-12 and you want one of these you're in good shape. Consulting is more difficult, as the fear of investment banking not hiring at all pushed a lot of people to consulting and made it much more competitive, but firms still did serious hiring. And they're still looking right now.


I completely agree with the rest of this thread, though. A JD will set you back in this economy. Hard. It used to be that business, particularly IB and consulting, enjoyed grabbing JDs. Not anymore, though. They can grab virtually any MBA they want and do all their recruiting through MBAs, so JDs are kind of discouraged. Well, make "kind of" "really."


The JD is hard to spin, too. Why did you get it if you wanted to do business. Why don't you want to do law? Why dedicate 3 years to law if you don't want to practice it? Are you going to switch to law down the road after we invest time in you? Are you only coming to us because the economy sucks? Why should we hire a guy whose last 3 years experience is school, and law-based, when we can hire people with direct experience.
Trust me, it's cancer right now. Getting a business job with a JD is extremely difficult. They don't want to talk to you. They see the JD on the resume and toss it without reading the cover letter. It's a very, very, very, very, very dumb thing to get a JD expecting to go into business.

d34d9823
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:02 am

judgeholden wrote:If you get into a top MBA program than this isn't too big of a deal. Investment banks hired fewer this year, true, as did consulting firms, but if you're in a top 10-12 and you want one of these you're in good shape. Consulting is more difficult, as the fear of investment banking not hiring at all pushed a lot of people to consulting and made it much more competitive, but firms still did serious hiring. And they're still looking right now.


I completely agree with the rest of this thread, though. A JD will set you back in this economy. Hard. It used to be that business, particularly IB and consulting, enjoyed grabbing JDs. Not anymore, though. They can grab virtually any MBA they want and do all their recruiting through MBAs, so JDs are kind of discouraged. Well, make "kind of" "really."


The JD is hard to spin, too. Why did you get it if you wanted to do business. Why don't you want to do law? Why dedicate 3 years to law if you don't want to practice it? Are you going to switch to law down the road after we invest time in you? Are you only coming to us because the economy sucks? Why should we hire a guy whose last 3 years experience is school, and law-based, when we can hire people with direct experience.
Trust me, it's cancer right now. Getting a business job with a JD is extremely difficult. They don't want to talk to you. They see the JD on the resume and toss it without reading the cover letter. It's a very, very, very, very, very dumb thing to get a JD expecting to go into business.

The one exception to this is that you can use a high LSAT to get into top JD/MBA programs *cough* Kellogg *cough* that you couldn't get without more substantial work experience.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:03 am

That's what a JD/MBA joint degree is designed to do. Northwestern's MBA is currently ranked #3 by USNews although I think it is still #1 for marketing.

d34d9823
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:13 am

CanadianWolf wrote:That's what a JD/MBA joint degree is designed to do. Northwestern's MBA is currently ranked #3 by USNews although I think it is still #1 for marketing.


Yeah, but USNWR is even more worthless for business. It will always be Harvard - Stanford - Wharton no matter what USNWR says that particular year.

judgeholden
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:51 am

d34dluk3 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:That's what a JD/MBA joint degree is designed to do. Northwestern's MBA is currently ranked #3 by USNews although I think it is still #1 for marketing.


Yeah, but USNWR is even more worthless for business. It will always be Harvard - Stanford - Wharton no matter what USNWR says that particular year.


Yup. A thousand times yup. Businesses and business schools don't pay all that much attention to USNews. BusinessWeek and Financial Times are the two they put the most stock into. BW does have Kellogg as #3 as well (and Booth #1!), but I agree that recruiters will always put H/S/W top. Always. Kellogg, Booth, Sloan and Columbia are pretty much the next grouping, debatably. Then Ross, Stern, Haas, Tuck, Fuqua and maybe Darden. That'll be your top 10 tier. But the recruiting for a school like Haas, Tuck or Fuqua, where certain consulting firms are the dream job, are very different from H/S, where those same firms are the "well, I've got nothing else to do" job.

I agree that the JD/MBA thing is worthwhile, get in as a JD and apply for the MBA program between, and from experience candidates that do the JD/MBA are more successful in job hunting than those that do the JD then the MBA. But it's still an extra two years of debt without experience vs an MBA. If at all possible you're better off working for those two years then applying to the schools.

d34d9823
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:57 am

judgeholden wrote:I agree that the JD/MBA thing is worthwhile, get in as a JD and apply for the MBA program between, and from experience candidates that do the JD/MBA are more successful in job hunting than those that do the JD then the MBA. But it's still an extra two years of debt without experience vs an MBA. If at all possible you're better off working for those two years then applying to the schools.

Agreed, but people who are changing careers or went to a low ranked undergrad may not have access to the kind of work experience you need to get a top MBA school.

judgeholden
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:02 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
judgeholden wrote:I agree that the JD/MBA thing is worthwhile, get in as a JD and apply for the MBA program between, and from experience candidates that do the JD/MBA are more successful in job hunting than those that do the JD then the MBA. But it's still an extra two years of debt without experience vs an MBA. If at all possible you're better off working for those two years then applying to the schools.

Agreed, but people who are changing careers or went to a low ranked undergrad may not have access to the kind of work experience you need to get a top MBA school.


A year in the Peace Corps followed by a year volunteering at a medical clinic in Africa will serve you better to get into HBS, haha.
In fairness, HBS absolutely adores younger people with little business experience but tons of that kind of experience. It's amazing how many Harvard grads from the Peace Corps I met during McKinsey recruiting events.
Harvard, and to a lesser degree Stanford, absolutely love a compelling story, so long as it's paired with a high GMAT.

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fugitivejammer
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby fugitivejammer » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:24 pm

judgeholden wrote:I agree that the JD/MBA thing is worthwhile, get in as a JD and apply for the MBA program between, and from experience candidates that do the JD/MBA are more successful in job hunting than those that do the JD then the MBA. But it's still an extra two years of debt without experience vs an MBA. If at all possible you're better off working for those two years then applying to the schools.


Can you elaborate on what you think the worthwhile-ness of the jd/mba is? It definitely seems like it would be an advantage over just a JD, but do ppl in such programs compete for different types of jobs than normal JD's? It is something i've been considering, but i've heard a great deal of conflicting opinion on what you can do with a jd/mba backing u up. I've imagined that it would actually be better to pursue a JD then MBA later if that's the combo someone would want simply because a jd places you in a lawyer capacity then an mba later may be a springboard to help u transition to another capacity. Meanwhile, a JD/MBA doesn't normally put in you position that requires both degrees, and may make you overqualified for certain jobs.

d34d9823
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:17 am

fugitivejammer wrote:
judgeholden wrote:I agree that the JD/MBA thing is worthwhile, get in as a JD and apply for the MBA program between, and from experience candidates that do the JD/MBA are more successful in job hunting than those that do the JD then the MBA. But it's still an extra two years of debt without experience vs an MBA. If at all possible you're better off working for those two years then applying to the schools.


Can you elaborate on what you think the worthwhile-ness of the jd/mba is? It definitely seems like it would be an advantage over just a JD, but do ppl in such programs compete for different types of jobs than normal JD's? It is something i've been considering, but i've heard a great deal of conflicting opinion on what you can do with a jd/mba backing u up. I've imagined that it would actually be better to pursue a JD then MBA later if that's the combo someone would want simply because a jd places you in a lawyer capacity then an mba later may be a springboard to help u transition to another capacity. Meanwhile, a JD/MBA doesn't normally put in you position that requires both degrees, and may make you overqualified for certain jobs.

It's a waste IMO because the main benefit from doing a degree at a top school is interviewing with the elite companies that hire there. Since you can only accept one job out of school, getting two degrees is pointless. Also, word on the street is that it's looked down on by both law and business firms. Law firms because they are worried you will jump ship; consulting and i-banking because they think you are too risk averse.

So why does it exist? Because schools will market anything that sounds good to students (see: international law).

judgeholden
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby judgeholden » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:11 am

fugitivejammer wrote:
judgeholden wrote:I agree that the JD/MBA thing is worthwhile, get in as a JD and apply for the MBA program between, and from experience candidates that do the JD/MBA are more successful in job hunting than those that do the JD then the MBA. But it's still an extra two years of debt without experience vs an MBA. If at all possible you're better off working for those two years then applying to the schools.


Can you elaborate on what you think the worthwhile-ness of the jd/mba is? It definitely seems like it would be an advantage over just a JD, but do ppl in such programs compete for different types of jobs than normal JD's? It is something i've been considering, but i've heard a great deal of conflicting opinion on what you can do with a jd/mba backing u up. I've imagined that it would actually be better to pursue a JD then MBA later if that's the combo someone would want simply because a jd places you in a lawyer capacity then an mba later may be a springboard to help u transition to another capacity. Meanwhile, a JD/MBA doesn't normally put in you position that requires both degrees, and may make you overqualified for certain jobs.



Sorry for the confusion, the "thing" I referred to is the whole "I don't have the qualifications to get into a top MBA program but I tested well enough to get into a top JD" thing. It's easier to get into a business school when you're already in the sister law program, and it's easier for a very smart person to get into a top JD program than a top MBA program (if only because MBA programs look long and hard at your experience and top JD programs mostly just LSAT and GPA.)

But if you can get into the MBA program otherwise and want to be a businessman, well, fuck the JD. I'm in agreeance. I don't think it's as distrusted by businesses as some think, though. Law firms, probably, but it can be spun with businesses, especially consulting firms and ibanking. The JD/MBAs I graduated with all went to those, with the exception of that kid that got stuck in law.

Pip
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby Pip » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:59 am

judgeholden wrote:
fugitivejammer wrote:
judgeholden wrote:I agree that the JD/MBA thing is worthwhile, get in as a JD and apply for the MBA program between, and from experience candidates that do the JD/MBA are more successful in job hunting than those that do the JD then the MBA. But it's still an extra two years of debt without experience vs an MBA. If at all possible you're better off working for those two years then applying to the schools.


Can you elaborate on what you think the worthwhile-ness of the jd/mba is? It definitely seems like it would be an advantage over just a JD, but do ppl in such programs compete for different types of jobs than normal JD's? It is something i've been considering, but i've heard a great deal of conflicting opinion on what you can do with a jd/mba backing u up. I've imagined that it would actually be better to pursue a JD then MBA later if that's the combo someone would want simply because a jd places you in a lawyer capacity then an mba later may be a springboard to help u transition to another capacity. Meanwhile, a JD/MBA doesn't normally put in you position that requires both degrees, and may make you overqualified for certain jobs.



Sorry for the confusion, the "thing" I referred to is the whole "I don't have the qualifications to get into a top MBA program but I tested well enough to get into a top JD" thing. It's easier to get into a business school when you're already in the sister law program, and it's easier for a very smart person to get into a top JD program than a top MBA program (if only because MBA programs look long and hard at your experience and top JD programs mostly just LSAT and GPA.)

But if you can get into the MBA program otherwise and want to be a businessman, well, fuck the JD. I'm in agreeance. I don't think it's as distrusted by businesses as some think, though. Law firms, probably, but it can be spun with businesses, especially consulting firms and ibanking. The JD/MBAs I graduated with all went to those, with the exception of that kid that got stuck in law.


Not sure what MBA programs you are talking about getting into easier by being in the schools law program... I know that at Harvard you would be applying to the MBA program in the same form as any other MBA applicant... IF you were accepted you would then have to make an additional application for doing a joint JD/MBA between the schools. They frown upon people doing the joint degree and you basically have to convince them that the joint degree has some special need in what you are trying to do when you are finished... to make it an even larger hurdle you would be paying tuition in the last 2 years at a rate higher than either a year at law school or in business school (they have a formula for tuition those last years that costs more than 50% of the tuition at either school for that schools' part).... So I'm not sure how you think being in the law school would give you an easier track into the MBA program.

It might at some schools, then at some schools (like Yale's business program) it isn't that hard to get in so long as you can do well on the GMAT which is much easier than the LSAT (assuming you know your math).

d34d9823
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Re: Marketability of HYS degree

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:05 am

Pip wrote:Not sure what MBA programs you are talking about getting into easier by being in the schools law program... I know that at Harvard you would be applying to the MBA program in the same form as any other MBA applicant... IF you were accepted you would then have to make an additional application for doing a joint JD/MBA between the schools. They frown upon people doing the joint degree and you basically have to convince them that the joint degree has some special need in what you are trying to do when you are finished... to make it an even larger hurdle you would be paying tuition in the last 2 years at a rate higher than either a year at law school or in business school (they have a formula for tuition those last years that costs more than 50% of the tuition at either school for that schools' part).... So I'm not sure how you think being in the law school would give you an easier track into the MBA program.

It might at some schools, then at some schools (like Yale's business program) it isn't that hard to get in so long as you can do well on the GMAT which is much easier than the LSAT (assuming you know your math).

Harvard/Stanford, probably not. I know you can "back door" Kellogg, though, and there are probably other T10 MBA programs that is true for as well.




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