Should I even bother?

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legalease9
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby legalease9 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:50 pm

revolution724 wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
legalease9 wrote:In terms of undergrad, I would look for a way to go as cheaply as possible, especially if you are looking for LS. Don't go prestigious if it will cost you 40k a year with COL to attend. Go to an undergrad for cheep (public or huge scholly), get good grades, and get into a prestigious Law School.


This is a great plan unless you (1) decide not to attend law/other grad school; (2) don't do exceedingly well; or (3) want to have options upon graduating from UG. Also, if you look through the partners at V100 firms, you'll see very few of them went to Rocky Mountain State University for "cheep."

Attend the best schools you can. It's an investment.


I'm sort of of two minds about this.

On the one hand, I don't think it'd hurt your chances too much in other fields to go to whatever large public "University of Yourstate" you have, unless it's a notoriously bad one, and on law school applications, a 4.0 at University of Yourstate beats a 3.2 at Yale.

On the other hand, I get asked where I went to undergrad a lot, especially by employers, and I am not one of those fresh-out-of-undergrad people - I graduated in 1998 and went to grad school before law school, too. I'm very glad, every time I get that question, that I went to a well-respected undergrad (which in fact has a good law school attached to it, although I'm going to law school somewhere else) and can talk about how it was an enriching experience to go there.

So, do a cost-benefit analysis.


Well said.

http://admissions.college.harvard.edu/f ... /cost.html

acrossthelake
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:50 pm

legalease9 wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
legalease9 wrote:In terms of undergrad, I would look for a way to go as cheaply as possible, especially if you are looking for LS. Don't go prestigious if it will cost you 40k a year with COL to attend. Go to an undergrad for cheep (public or huge scholly), get good grades, and get into a prestigious Law School.


This is a great plan unless you (1) decide not to attend law/other grad school; (2) don't do exceedingly well; or (3) want to have options upon graduating from UG. Also, if you look through the partners at V100 firms, you'll see very few of them went to Rocky Mountain State University for "cheep."

Attend the best schools you can. It's an investment.


1. I did say especially if you are looking for LS. Although I do understand the concern that OP may not know what he wants at this age.

2 and 3. No. The evidence simply isn't there that you get a huge boost for any job coming out of a hyper-prestigious undergrad vs. coming out of a solid state school for cheap. You may get a slight boost at certain ivy league grad schools, but the boost isn't worth the cash (unless you have no money concerns).

I was unclear in my original post. What I meant was go to a good public UG school for cheap vs. an elite school like Harvard for sticker (unless you have no money concerns). I didn't mean pick a shit school out of the phonebook because they give full rides.

In terms elite lawyers' UG, correlation does not prove causation. You would need a lot of evidence to show that their elite undergrad got them the law firm job. That evidence isn't there.

Finally. The cost of attendance (COL included), per year of attending Harvard UG...

http://admissions.college.harvard.edu/f ... /cost.html

$53,950 - $56,750. Thats 227k in cost by the time you get out on a four year track. Not worth it. Especially if you want LS.


Depends on how much money you have. Harvard is cheaper than the in-state option for people in lower income brackets due to very generous financial aid.

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paratactical
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby paratactical » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:51 pm

.
Last edited by paratactical on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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legalease9
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby legalease9 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:56 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
legalease9 wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
legalease9 wrote:In terms of undergrad, I would look for a way to go as cheaply as possible, especially if you are looking for LS. Don't go prestigious if it will cost you 40k a year with COL to attend. Go to an undergrad for cheep (public or huge scholly), get good grades, and get into a prestigious Law School.


This is a great plan unless you (1) decide not to attend law/other grad school; (2) don't do exceedingly well; or (3) want to have options upon graduating from UG. Also, if you look through the partners at V100 firms, you'll see very few of them went to Rocky Mountain State University for "cheep."

Attend the best schools you can. It's an investment.


1. I did say especially if you are looking for LS. Although I do understand the concern that OP may not know what he wants at this age.

2 and 3. No. The evidence simply isn't there that you get a huge boost for any job coming out of a hyper-prestigious undergrad vs. coming out of a solid state school for cheap. You may get a slight boost at certain ivy league grad schools, but the boost isn't worth the cash (unless you have no money concerns).

I was unclear in my original post. What I meant was go to a good public UG school for cheap vs. an elite school like Harvard for sticker (unless you have no money concerns). I didn't mean pick a shit school out of the phonebook because they give full rides.

In terms elite lawyers' UG, correlation does not prove causation. You would need a lot of evidence to show that their elite undergrad got them the law firm job. That evidence isn't there.

Finally. The cost of attendance (COL included), per year of attending Harvard UG...

http://admissions.college.harvard.edu/f ... /cost.html

$53,950 - $56,750. Thats 227k in cost by the time you get out on a four year track. Not worth it. Especially if you want LS.


Depends on how much money you have. Harvard is cheaper than the in-state option for people in lower income brackets due to very generous financial aid.


This is a very good point. If Harvard is a cheap option because of financial aid (or even a reasonable cost option) go!

whymeohgodno
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:57 pm

Just major in communications and get a 4.0. Then nail the LSAT and enjoy HYS.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby johnnyutah » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:02 pm

Smoe_Coat wrote:Thank you for all the advice. I know it's certainly odd having someone of my age on this forum (I can assume most at youngest are in undergraduate study) but I don't want be out of high school and have no idea as to what I will do with my life and where I wish to go to college. I was doing some research and stumbled across this forum. I though there would be more like me on here, but I guess that was a gross overestimation. I realize the field could change greatly between now and when I would graduate from law school, but it never hurts to be prepared for the worst and to have a backup plan. I simply want to explore all my options, research said options, and make an educated decision as to what I will do with my life subsequent to my senior year in high school. I apologize for how odd this question was compared to others on this forum and especially considering my age and how long it will be until many of my apprehensions are even valid. Unfortunately I'm rather paranoid on such subjects and often over prepare, which has upsides and downsides. Your advice will certainly be noted and will hopefully aide in future decisions. With any luck I might be back on here in about six years with questions about preparing for law school rather than if I should even consider it.

I honestly think that the best way to get the perspective you will need to sort this all out is to spend some time trying to kiss girls for a while.

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MrKappus
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby MrKappus » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:54 pm

legalease9 wrote:2 and 3. No. The evidence simply isn't there that you get a huge boost for any job coming out of a hyper-prestigious undergrad vs. coming out of a solid state school for cheap. You may get a slight boost at certain ivy league grad schools, but the boost isn't worth the cash (unless you have no money concerns).


The evidence isn't there for "any" job? You're joking right? Do you know anyone in finance/banking/consulting? Say what you want about partners and correlation/causation...personally I think when there's such a preponderance of partners from prestigious UG's, the burden is on you to show it doesn't matter, not me to show it does. But some schools open doors no others can w/ regard to certain jobs/fields. I know a lot of people on a lot of desks, and even great state schools like Mich/UVA are woefully outmatched. Sad but true.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:14 pm

Other people have given you excellent long answers, so here's a short one: law school is still an okay decision if you go to a very prestigious one (or one that is cheap and places well in its region). So, if you can set yourself up to do that, law is definitely on the table.

Secondly, if you take the SAT, watch out for amount vs. number distinctions on the writing multiple choice. (I don't know what the ACT tests in the way of grammar.) You write very well.

judgeholden
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:28 am

MrKappus wrote:
legalease9 wrote:2 and 3. No. The evidence simply isn't there that you get a huge boost for any job coming out of a hyper-prestigious undergrad vs. coming out of a solid state school for cheap. You may get a slight boost at certain ivy league grad schools, but the boost isn't worth the cash (unless you have no money concerns).


The evidence isn't there for "any" job? You're joking right? Do you know anyone in finance/banking/consulting? Say what you want about partners and correlation/causation...personally I think when there's such a preponderance of partners from prestigious UG's, the burden is on you to show it doesn't matter, not me to show it does. But some schools open doors no others can w/ regard to certain jobs/fields. I know a lot of people on a lot of desks, and even great state schools like Mich/UVA are woefully outmatched. Sad but true.


Truth.

Anyone justifying going to a shitty school as "it's just as good" is delusional.
Of course, after a cut-off it is mostly the same.

If you get a chance to go to Harvard, Stanford or Wharton, you go. No questions. Work the corners at night if you have to, just go. The job opportunities out of those three schools blow every other school away. Anyone here with friends that went to one of the three can vouch for how many doors were open simply by having that name beneath yours on the resume, and how alumni bend over backwards to get you jobs.

Beyond those? Diminishing returns, obviously. Are Brown and Cornell worth the money? Unlikely. Would a liberal arts degree from Tufts give you return on that investment? Unlikely. But there are still schools to consider. Good pedigree state schools like UVA will do significantly more than a shit factory like Rutgers.

Anyone saying otherwise is nuts. Yeah, you can get into Goldman or McKinsey from Rutgers, fine, whatever. But you have to work your ass off for it and pretty much be an exceptionally rare candidate. You can be a moron with a Harvard degree and end up there.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:32 am

judgeholden wrote:.

QF disturbing Blood Meridian reference

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Patriot1208
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:38 am

judgeholden wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
legalease9 wrote:2 and 3. No. The evidence simply isn't there that you get a huge boost for any job coming out of a hyper-prestigious undergrad vs. coming out of a solid state school for cheap. You may get a slight boost at certain ivy league grad schools, but the boost isn't worth the cash (unless you have no money concerns).


The evidence isn't there for "any" job? You're joking right? Do you know anyone in finance/banking/consulting? Say what you want about partners and correlation/causation...personally I think when there's such a preponderance of partners from prestigious UG's, the burden is on you to show it doesn't matter, not me to show it does. But some schools open doors no others can w/ regard to certain jobs/fields. I know a lot of people on a lot of desks, and even great state schools like Mich/UVA are woefully outmatched. Sad but true.


Truth.

Anyone justifying going to a shitty school as "it's just as good" is delusional.
Of course, after a cut-off it is mostly the same.

If you get a chance to go to Harvard, Stanford or Wharton, you go. No questions. Work the corners at night if you have to, just go. The job opportunities out of those three schools blow every other school away. Anyone here with friends that went to one of the three can vouch for how many doors were open simply by having that name beneath yours on the resume, and how alumni bend over backwards to get you jobs.

Beyond those? Diminishing returns, obviously. Are Brown and Cornell worth the money? Unlikely. Would a liberal arts degree from Tufts give you return on that investment? Unlikely. But there are still schools to consider. Good pedigree state schools like UVA will do significantly more than a shit factory like Rutgers.

Anyone saying otherwise is nuts. Yeah, you can get into Goldman or McKinsey from Rutgers, fine, whatever. But you have to work your ass off for it and pretty much be an exceptionally rare candidate. You can be a moron with a Harvard degree and end up there.


This debate was going on in the lounge but it really just depends on career goals. If you want to go into investment banking, you need to try and go to an ivy. If you are just majoring in business and are not sure what you are going to do, a good state school with lots of alumni in the area is just as good, like tOSU for example. If you just plan on doing something that requires graduate/professional school, you should go to a cheap state option because the school you get your post-graduate degree will matter much more.

judgeholden
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:49 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
legalease9 wrote:2 and 3. No. The evidence simply isn't there that you get a huge boost for any job coming out of a hyper-prestigious undergrad vs. coming out of a solid state school for cheap. You may get a slight boost at certain ivy league grad schools, but the boost isn't worth the cash (unless you have no money concerns).


The evidence isn't there for "any" job? You're joking right? Do you know anyone in finance/banking/consulting? Say what you want about partners and correlation/causation...personally I think when there's such a preponderance of partners from prestigious UG's, the burden is on you to show it doesn't matter, not me to show it does. But some schools open doors no others can w/ regard to certain jobs/fields. I know a lot of people on a lot of desks, and even great state schools like Mich/UVA are woefully outmatched. Sad but true.


Truth.

Anyone justifying going to a shitty school as "it's just as good" is delusional.
Of course, after a cut-off it is mostly the same.

If you get a chance to go to Harvard, Stanford or Wharton, you go. No questions. Work the corners at night if you have to, just go. The job opportunities out of those three schools blow every other school away. Anyone here with friends that went to one of the three can vouch for how many doors were open simply by having that name beneath yours on the resume, and how alumni bend over backwards to get you jobs.

Beyond those? Diminishing returns, obviously. Are Brown and Cornell worth the money? Unlikely. Would a liberal arts degree from Tufts give you return on that investment? Unlikely. But there are still schools to consider. Good pedigree state schools like UVA will do significantly more than a shit factory like Rutgers.

Anyone saying otherwise is nuts. Yeah, you can get into Goldman or McKinsey from Rutgers, fine, whatever. But you have to work your ass off for it and pretty much be an exceptionally rare candidate. You can be a moron with a Harvard degree and end up there.


This debate was going on in the lounge but it really just depends on career goals. If you want to go into investment banking, you need to try and go to an ivy. If you are just majoring in business and are not sure what you are going to do, a good state school with lots of alumni in the area is just as good, like tOSU for example. If you just plan on doing something that requires graduate/professional school, you should go to a cheap state option because the school you get your post-graduate degree will matter much more.


Again, bad advice.
Yeah, if you want to do liberal arts, it won't matter as much.
Business, though? Doesn't matter where you want to be, having Harvard or Wharton on your resume will be better than any state school sans UVA, several of the Cal schools and maybe UNC-CH.


And with grad degrees, sure, whatever. If you want an English phd they won't care much where you've been.
But professional? Graduate from SUNY, get a job doing accounting at some local store, and see what kind of MBA programs offer you admission. Go to Harvard, spend 3 years as an analyst at Bain or BCG, and suddenly you're accepted to all the top 5 MBA programs with your employer willing to pay your way through.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:01 am

judgeholden wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
judgeholden wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
The evidence isn't there for "any" job? You're joking right? Do you know anyone in finance/banking/consulting? Say what you want about partners and correlation/causation...personally I think when there's such a preponderance of partners from prestigious UG's, the burden is on you to show it doesn't matter, not me to show it does. But some schools open doors no others can w/ regard to certain jobs/fields. I know a lot of people on a lot of desks, and even great state schools like Mich/UVA are woefully outmatched. Sad but true.


Truth.

Anyone justifying going to a shitty school as "it's just as good" is delusional.
Of course, after a cut-off it is mostly the same.

If you get a chance to go to Harvard, Stanford or Wharton, you go. No questions. Work the corners at night if you have to, just go. The job opportunities out of those three schools blow every other school away. Anyone here with friends that went to one of the three can vouch for how many doors were open simply by having that name beneath yours on the resume, and how alumni bend over backwards to get you jobs.

Beyond those? Diminishing returns, obviously. Are Brown and Cornell worth the money? Unlikely. Would a liberal arts degree from Tufts give you return on that investment? Unlikely. But there are still schools to consider. Good pedigree state schools like UVA will do significantly more than a shit factory like Rutgers.

Anyone saying otherwise is nuts. Yeah, you can get into Goldman or McKinsey from Rutgers, fine, whatever. But you have to work your ass off for it and pretty much be an exceptionally rare candidate. You can be a moron with a Harvard degree and end up there.


This debate was going on in the lounge but it really just depends on career goals. If you want to go into investment banking, you need to try and go to an ivy. If you are just majoring in business and are not sure what you are going to do, a good state school with lots of alumni in the area is just as good, like tOSU for example. If you just plan on doing something that requires graduate/professional school, you should go to a cheap state option because the school you get your post-graduate degree will matter much more.


Again, bad advice.
Yeah, if you want to do liberal arts, it won't matter as much.
Business, though? Doesn't matter where you want to be, having Harvard or Wharton on your resume will be better than any state school sans UVA, several of the Cal schools and maybe UNC-CH.


And with grad degrees, sure, whatever. If you want an English phd they won't care much where you've been.
But professional? Graduate from SUNY, get a job doing accounting at some local store, and see what kind of MBA programs offer you admission. Go to Harvard, spend 3 years as an analyst at Bain or BCG, and suddenly you're accepted to all the top 5 MBA programs with your employer willing to pay your way through.


I guess I assumed you could infer this from my post. But when I say you aren't sure what you want to do with your life generally these people are just looking to work locally. And using OSU as an example, you can just as easily get a job in a large comapany based in ohio as from tOSU as you can from almost any other school. This is because most of the executives probably went to tOSU. Believe me, I worked in a headhunters office in ohio during high school. The vast majority of executives I saw at the ohio companies were from Ohio State.

This is why I said it's about career goals and networking.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:40 am

MrKappus wrote:
legalease9 wrote:2 and 3. No. The evidence simply isn't there that you get a huge boost for any job coming out of a hyper-prestigious undergrad vs. coming out of a solid state school for cheap. You may get a slight boost at certain ivy league grad schools, but the boost isn't worth the cash (unless you have no money concerns).


The evidence isn't there for "any" job? You're joking right? Do you know anyone in finance/banking/consulting? Say what you want about partners and correlation/causation...personally I think when there's such a preponderance of partners from prestigious UG's, the burden is on you to show it doesn't matter, not me to show it does. But some schools open doors no others can w/ regard to certain jobs/fields. I know a lot of people on a lot of desks, and even great state schools like Mich/UVA are woefully outmatched. Sad but true.


lol no

judgeholden
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:57 am

I work for an Ohio company. As you mentioned, the vast majority of people here are Ohio lifers. That makes sense to some degree - Ohio pays less (but costs much less), and isn't a very exciting place. Take P&G, for example. A mini-CEO factory and the best place to learn marketing in the entire world. Extremely competitive for MBA hiring, yet you'll find very few people there from top schools. Why? Because even if P&G is a better place to launch a career you'll never get a Harvard MBA to turn down a high paying job in NY, Boston, Chicago or San Francisco to move to Cincinnati.

The company I'm working for is going through those pains now. They feel they have good people, but they also feel that at this point they need the absolute best people for many of our roles. They're discovering that they not only need to meet what the NY companies are offering but exceed it in order to lure the brightest possible employees to Ohio, but it's something that could be worthwhile to get the best employees in the nation rather than the best in the region. It comes up in our executive recruiting meetings. Gotta say, it's worked well for me. I'm no fan of Ohio, kind of hate it right now, but the bank account enjoys being overpaid in a very cheap area.

Long post short - it's globalization. Everyone moves everywhere. Even the local companies, that is to say the good ones and not the regional ones, are looking to expand the reach of their recruiting significantly.

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jayn3
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby jayn3 » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:04 pm

legalease9 wrote:Finally. The cost of attendance (COL included), per year of attending Harvard UG...

http://admissions.college.harvard.edu/f ... /cost.html

$53,950 - $56,750. Thats 227k in cost by the time you get out on a four year track. Not worth it. Especially if you want LS.

the problem with this analysis is that ivies are solely need-based financial aid. i.e., the only situation in which you'd have to pay full tuition for four years is your parents refusing to contribute anything.

switch the UG to any non-ivy, however, and the analysis holds.

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MrKappus
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby MrKappus » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:10 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
legalease9 wrote:2 and 3. No. The evidence simply isn't there that you get a huge boost for any job coming out of a hyper-prestigious undergrad vs. coming out of a solid state school for cheap. You may get a slight boost at certain ivy league grad schools, but the boost isn't worth the cash (unless you have no money concerns).


The evidence isn't there for "any" job? You're joking right? Do you know anyone in finance/banking/consulting? Say what you want about partners and correlation/causation...personally I think when there's such a preponderance of partners from prestigious UG's, the burden is on you to show it doesn't matter, not me to show it does. But some schools open doors no others can w/ regard to certain jobs/fields. I know a lot of people on a lot of desks, and even great state schools like Mich/UVA are woefully outmatched. Sad but true.


lol no


lol you're awesome.

reverendt
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby reverendt » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:24 pm

OP....
Try to score with the ladies (if you're a guy....)
Learn to drive.
Break curfew.
Go to a few keg parties.
Do well in college.
THEN start worrying about the legal market.




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