Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

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judgeholden
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:11 am

MC Southstar wrote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
MC Southstar wrote:Don't buy any laptop from an American company except Apple.


fixt


I hate apple as much as the next logical person, but they have made relatively solid hardware up to this point, though it is obvious that quality is slipping now that they are the largest marketing department in the world.


That's a fairly dumb thing to say. What's the cause-and-effect there. How does size of the marketing department in any way change the quality of the product?

Plus Apple is not a marketing-run company. Shocking, I know, considering how much of their product's value is no more than marketing smoke and mirrors, but they're primarily an engineering and operations run company.

You're paying about 100% more for an insanely well put together product made from the best materials they can source. Of course, you can do significantly less with it than a laptop that costs half as much unless you install Windows, and that added build quality is questionably worthwhile when, rather than keeping an Apple for 3 or 4 years you're likely better off buying one PC today and another halfway through the expected life of that Apple, giving you a far more powerful computer, but whatever.

Suckers keep buying.

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nealric
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby nealric » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:44 pm

You're paying about 100% more for an insanely well put together product made from the best materials they can source.


Little known fun fact: the motherboard inside that Dell is probably made in the same Foxconn factory as the one in your Apple. Where apple excels is industrial design. There is no question that they make a slick looking product.

rather than keeping an Apple for 3 or 4 years you're likely better off buying one PC today and another halfway through the expected life of that Apple, giving you a far more powerful computer, but whatever.


My wife happily used a Dell for 6 years. My Dell is at 4 and I have no intention of replacing anytime soon. This is not an ad for Dell. Laptops have reached commodity status. They are all basically good.

judgeholden
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby judgeholden » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:12 pm

nealric wrote:
You're paying about 100% more for an insanely well put together product made from the best materials they can source.


Little known fun fact: the motherboard inside that Dell is probably made in the same Foxconn factory as the one in your Apple. Where apple excels is industrial design. There is no question that they make a slick looking product.

rather than keeping an Apple for 3 or 4 years you're likely better off buying one PC today and another halfway through the expected life of that Apple, giving you a far more powerful computer, but whatever.


My wife happily used a Dell for 6 years. My Dell is at 4 and I have no intention of replacing anytime soon. This is not an ad for Dell. Laptops have reached commodity status. They are all basically good.


It's sadly little know, but that's why I said "put together" and "best materials." You're really paying for the industrial design of the enclosure. Nothing else. Laptops innards are all off-the-rack, as people here keep saying.

And don't get me wrong - their products are put together better. No keyboard flex. No chipping. But how much does that matter? Is it worth paying $1500 for a laptop slower than what Dell can give you for $700? I'm betting against it, but people want to look cool.

Kudos for Apple for finding ways to turn commodities (PCs, mp3 players) into brands with 100% markups.


Of course, part of that is trying to force crappy ecosystems like iTunes, and the other part is really limiting how you can use the devices, in essence forcing you to think exactly like they do when what you might really want to do is think differently. Apple doesn't much like letting you think differently. I think that's the reason for their broken grammared logo.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:53 pm

Some people PM'd me with concerns that they couldn't anything more than a netbook... so lo and behold, I give you:
http://www.amazon.com/eMachines-eME527- ... B003N19784

It's an E-Machines. It has a "Celery Stick" processor. It has a mono-speaker(Not good for blasting music.) No webcam.

Alright, now that I got the cons out of the way.. let's talk pros:
It's $280 bucks. No taxes. No shipping(with Prime). $280. It has 2GB DDR3. It runs a browser, office apps, and other stuff. What else? It's 15.6", bigger than netbooks.

So, you're getting a laptop that's more powerful than a netbook, bigger than a netbook, and cheaper than a netbook. You get about 3 hours of battery life, though I've heard of over 4 hours; it's advertised as 3 hours.

Full disclosure: I ordered one for somebody - no complaints for the price. As for the stigma with e-Machines, Acer owns them now through Gateway - if that means anything to you. *cough hack cough Lets see somebody bring up that damn chart/graph again cough hack cough*

It's not a Mac; it's not a Thinkpad. It's a damn cheap computer for the budget student who can't drop a clean grand on a laptop.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:01 pm

judgeholden wrote:
nealric wrote:
You're paying about 100% more for an insanely well put together product made from the best materials they can source.


Little known fun fact: the motherboard inside that Dell is probably made in the same Foxconn factory as the one in your Apple. Where apple excels is industrial design. There is no question that they make a slick looking product.

rather than keeping an Apple for 3 or 4 years you're likely better off buying one PC today and another halfway through the expected life of that Apple, giving you a far more powerful computer, but whatever.


My wife happily used a Dell for 6 years. My Dell is at 4 and I have no intention of replacing anytime soon. This is not an ad for Dell. Laptops have reached commodity status. They are all basically good.


It's sadly little know, but that's why I said "put together" and "best materials." You're really paying for the industrial design of the enclosure. Nothing else. Laptops innards are all off-the-rack, as people here keep saying.

And don't get me wrong - their products are put together better. No keyboard flex. No chipping. But how much does that matter? Is it worth paying $1500 for a laptop slower than what Dell can give you for $700? I'm betting against it, but people want to look cool.

Kudos for Apple for finding ways to turn commodities (PCs, mp3 players) into brands with 100% markups.


Of course, part of that is trying to force crappy ecosystems like iTunes, and the other part is really limiting how you can use the devices, in essence forcing you to think exactly like they do when what you might really want to do is think differently. Apple doesn't much like letting you think differently. I think that's the reason for their broken grammared logo.


I refuse to touch this post with a yardstick. It's.. just.. sigh.

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kalvano
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby kalvano » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:50 pm

Lol at 100% markups.

GettingReady2010
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby GettingReady2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:15 am

We all know that Wikipedia is not necessarily a legitimate resource, but after looking up the T410 model it states that, "The T410 has been somewhat unreliable for some users due to a tendency to overheat." What do you all make of this.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby whymeohgodno » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:41 am

I always laugh hard when people get into an argument over mac vs pc. Seriously guys? Mac isn't a state of mind, it's just another product that some people prefer over others.

Maybe we should have a bigmac vs whopper debate in here. It's just about as productive.

ly2010
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ly2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:58 am

I know nothing about computers but I've had a Lenovo Thinkpad for three years. It has lasted me longer than my previous laptops but it overheats and turns off randomly sometimes. You definitely can't watch movies on here...

I am going to shop around as well and get a more reliable laptop for law school, too.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:00 am

whymeohgodno wrote:I always laugh hard when people get into an argument over mac vs pc. Seriously guys? Mac isn't a state of mind, it's just another product that some people prefer over others.

Maybe we should have a bigmac vs whopper debate in here. It's just about as productive.


Having worked in a Burger King before: A whopper will always be better. Why? Because BK lets you stack unlimited amounts of meat and cheese/bacon. You'll have to pay for it, but it's an option.

Also, having eaten a 6-meat/cheese whopper, it's orgasmic.

Also, the Thinkpad issue has been sporadic. Nothing concrete yet.

GettingReady2010
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby GettingReady2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:03 am

ly2010 wrote:I know nothing about computers but I've had a Lenovo Thinkpad for three years. It has lasted me longer than my previous laptops but it overheats and turns off randomly sometimes. You definitely can't watch movies on here...

I am going to shop around as well and get a more reliable laptop for law school, too.


See this is why I'm leaning towards a Mac. Yes, I realize many of you have nothing but contempt for Macs, but the point is you don't have complaints like this with Macs. You never hear anyone say that they are disappointed with their purchase. On the contrary, it's always, "I switched to Mac and can't imagine ever going back." Basically, people are always complaining about their PC, and you just don't get this with Macs.

With that said, there is still a very good reason to choose a PC over Mac. PRICE. You're paying for the bells and whistles with a Mac. You're buying a Mercedes when you would be just fine with a Toyota.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:27 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:
ly2010 wrote:I know nothing about computers but I've had a Lenovo Thinkpad for three years. It has lasted me longer than my previous laptops but it overheats and turns off randomly sometimes. You definitely can't watch movies on here...

I am going to shop around as well and get a more reliable laptop for law school, too.


See this is why I'm leaning towards a Mac. Yes, I realize many of you have nothing but contempt for Macs, but the point is you don't have complaints like this with Macs. You never hear anyone say that they are disappointed with their purchase. On the contrary, it's always, "I switched to Mac and can't imagine ever going back." Basically, people are always complaining about their PC, and you just don't get this with Macs.

With that said, there is still a very good reason to choose a PC over Mac. PRICE. You're paying for the bells and whistles with a Mac. You're buying a Mercedes when you would be just fine with a Toyota.


Not particularly true. Many PC Laptop prices exceed those of a mac.You're paying a "tax" to use OSX with a mac.

GettingReady2010
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby GettingReady2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:36 am

ResolutePear wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:
ly2010 wrote:I know nothing about computers but I've had a Lenovo Thinkpad for three years. It has lasted me longer than my previous laptops but it overheats and turns off randomly sometimes. You definitely can't watch movies on here...

I am going to shop around as well and get a more reliable laptop for law school, too.


See this is why I'm leaning towards a Mac. Yes, I realize many of you have nothing but contempt for Macs, but the point is you don't have complaints like this with Macs. You never hear anyone say that they are disappointed with their purchase. On the contrary, it's always, "I switched to Mac and can't imagine ever going back." Basically, people are always complaining about their PC, and you just don't get this with Macs.

With that said, there is still a very good reason to choose a PC over Mac. PRICE. You're paying for the bells and whistles with a Mac. You're buying a Mercedes when you would be just fine with a Toyota.


Not particularly true. Many PC Laptop prices exceed those of a mac.You're paying a "tax" to use OSX with a mac.


No, I was saying that you could buy a $400 PC that will serve you fine during law school - A Mac would simply be a luxury over this. But if you're going to spend a grand on a laptop, it seems that a Mac is the way to go. I should not that I'm basing this solely off the complaints I've heard about PCs in this price range and the positive feedback I've heard on PCs.

ly2010
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ly2010 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:55 pm

I've also used a Mac and I honestly prefer it if it wasn't the compatibility issue. For example, I rely on a few google gadgets and I can't use it on the Mac (I always use the google translator on Google Toolbar). Actually, now that I think about it, my Thinkpad was more expensive, too.

From what I've heard, even though 9 out of 10 times you're fine in terms of compatibility, you should always double check. I know my dad can't use his Mac at work because the hospital he works at only has PC stuff!?

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:02 pm

GettingReady2010 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:
ly2010 wrote:I know nothing about computers but I've had a Lenovo Thinkpad for three years. It has lasted me longer than my previous laptops but it overheats and turns off randomly sometimes. You definitely can't watch movies on here...

I am going to shop around as well and get a more reliable laptop for law school, too.


See this is why I'm leaning towards a Mac. Yes, I realize many of you have nothing but contempt for Macs, but the point is you don't have complaints like this with Macs. You never hear anyone say that they are disappointed with their purchase. On the contrary, it's always, "I switched to Mac and can't imagine ever going back." Basically, people are always complaining about their PC, and you just don't get this with Macs.

With that said, there is still a very good reason to choose a PC over Mac. PRICE. You're paying for the bells and whistles with a Mac. You're buying a Mercedes when you would be just fine with a Toyota.


Not particularly true. Many PC Laptop prices exceed those of a mac.You're paying a "tax" to use OSX with a mac.


No, I was saying that you could buy a $400 PC that will serve you fine during law school - A Mac would simply be a luxury over this. But if you're going to spend a grand on a laptop, it seems that a Mac is the way to go. I should not that I'm basing this solely off the complaints I've heard about PCs in this price range and the positive feedback I've heard on PCs.


The reason why you hear a lot of complaints from PC laptops comes from the fact that ~85% of the market uses them. Therefore, for every 1-2 busted macs out there, you'll find 8-9 PC laptops which are also busted. Last I checked this is not the case.

Basing your opinions off the *unprofessional* complaints of other people only makes a bias *that* much worse.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:04 pm

ly2010 wrote:I've also used a Mac and I honestly prefer it if it wasn't the compatibility issue. For example, I rely on a few google gadgets and I can't use it on the Mac (I always use the google translator on Google Toolbar). Actually, now that I think about it, my Thinkpad was more expensive, too.

From what I've heard, even though 9 out of 10 times you're fine in terms of compatibility, you should always double check. I know my dad can't use his Mac at work because the hospital he works at only has PC stuff!?


PC's will always dominate the business place. Security corporations aren't in the business to make support software for 15% of their customer base... especially when that customer base is actually a sub-client. Some do - but in practice, it's wasteful spending.

GettingReady2010
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby GettingReady2010 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:12 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:
ly2010 wrote:I know nothing about computers but I've had a Lenovo Thinkpad for three years. It has lasted me longer than my previous laptops but it overheats and turns off randomly sometimes. You definitely can't watch movies on here...

I am going to shop around as well and get a more reliable laptop for law school, too.


See this is why I'm leaning towards a Mac. Yes, I realize many of you have nothing but contempt for Macs, but the point is you don't have complaints like this with Macs. You never hear anyone say that they are disappointed with their purchase. On the contrary, it's always, "I switched to Mac and can't imagine ever going back." Basically, people are always complaining about their PC, and you just don't get this with Macs.

With that said, there is still a very good reason to choose a PC over Mac. PRICE. You're paying for the bells and whistles with a Mac. You're buying a Mercedes when you would be just fine with a Toyota.


Not particularly true. Many PC Laptop prices exceed those of a mac.You're paying a "tax" to use OSX with a mac.


No, I was saying that you could buy a $400 PC that will serve you fine during law school - A Mac would simply be a luxury over this. But if you're going to spend a grand on a laptop, it seems that a Mac is the way to go. I should not that I'm basing this solely off the complaints I've heard about PCs in this price range and the positive feedback I've heard on PCs.


The reason why you hear a lot of complaints from PC laptops comes from the fact that ~85% of the market uses them. Therefore, for every 1-2 busted macs out there, you'll find 8-9 PC laptops which are also busted. Last I checked this is not the case.

Basing your opinions off the *unprofessional* complaints of other people only makes a bias *that* much worse.[/quote]

I realize that. I was saying that there is a higher percentage of PC users with problems than Mac users. Again, I'm only basing this on anecdotal complains and not data.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:34 pm

Right - but at the end of the day, if you're basing your opinion off anecdotal evidence, what's the point? So many factors play into it that there's no point in even going through them.

Anecdotally, I've heard people with macs have a high chance at getting their laptops stolen versus a PC laptop user. The subject's related but the data is nonexistent and the conversation turns into a noncommittal, "I THINK" versus a solid and committal,"Here's the data from credited sources, sir."

tl;dr: Anecdotal evidence muddles science/technology/etc. conversations.

judgeholden
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby judgeholden » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:07 am

Undoubtedly a larger percentage of PC users have issues. There are a few reasons for this, almost all based around the simple fact that PCs aren't 85% of the market, they're 93%, give or take 2%. Macs are 5%, Linux/Other is 2%. That's an enormously large difference.

1) This makes it so that developing malware is a no-brainer. If your effort can hit 1700x as many computers by making it for PCs over Macs, you make it for PCs. So, while the level of Mac viruses are going up, and while Macs tend to really be no more secure than PCs, there's simply fewer people looking to exploit those flaws.

2) Since there are so many more PC users, there are more PC developers. And since PCs are a much more open format, letting you think differently, and since Microsoft doesn't strictly force manufacturers to bend to their whim, allowing vastly more hardware choices, you end up with things that don't work together well. Remember all those blue screens of death (you've probably had very, very few since Windows 98), those weren't Microsoft's fault, they were hardware manufacturer's fault. Your new graphics card was sweet, but it didn't play well with something regarding your web cam's drivers, or some other software. Microsoft not being anal like Apple meant far more choices and more competition bringing up quality and down prices, but also meant that not everything functioned happily together.

3) Let's be fair, with PCs being cheaper you're going to get more completely clueless people using them. They're ubiquitous, and people kind of need to sort of know something about technology to even realize to go Mac. So while some true morons go Mac, most stay PC. If you're halfway qualified to properly think about technology you probably have little malware and virus trouble - you know how to avoid it. People like my parents do not. They never seem to learn. As a result they have far more issues than your non-tech-moron user.

4) Lastly, tying sort of into #2, PCs are cheap. Cheap PCs are extra cheap. To make them so cheap costs are cut. An inferior motherboard is used, less quality RAM, insufficient power supply, etc. If you want a $250 laptop this is what happens. So all those people buying emachines gibberish from Walmart end up with serious hardware issues and wonder why, blaming the PC platform. Some, rather than realizing it's because they bought lowest tier stuff and buying properly, run out and buy a Macbook costing 5x as much, then when they don't have the same flaws they praise the Mac. They don't realize that a $600 PC laptop, still a third the cost of the Macbook, would also have avoided these issues. It's like thinking your $10k Geo Metro breaks down too often so you run out and buy a $50k Lincoln when a $25k Honda would have worked every bit as well.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:22 am

judgeholden wrote:Undoubtedly a larger percentage of PC users have issues. There are a few reasons for this, almost all based around the simple fact that PCs aren't 85% of the market, they're 93%, give or take 2%. Macs are 5%, Linux/Other is 2%. That's an enormously large difference.


You are aware that in most cases, Linux is run on a PC, right? These numbers smell to me like they're from around 2003; although using the same rationale.. every Mac post-2005ish is a PC as well.

I think it'd be better to compare Operating systems. At any rate, would a difference of 85% to 93% break your analysis in any way, shape, or form? Why even bring it up?

revolution724
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby revolution724 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:24 am

Ok, I did not read this whole thread, but I have a Lenovo Thinkpad. It is a piece of junk with an obnoxious tendency towards screen-flickering. I bought it because it was the cheapest machine in the store, so I expected this. Take from that what you will.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:25 am

revolution724 wrote:Ok, I did not read this whole thread, but I have a Lenovo Thinkpad. It is a piece of junk with an obnoxious tendency towards screen-flickering. I bought it because it was the cheapest machine in the store, so I expected this. Take from that what you will.


Are you sure you didn't buy a "Thunkpad"?

revolution724
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby revolution724 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:51 am

ResolutePear wrote:
revolution724 wrote:Ok, I did not read this whole thread, but I have a Lenovo Thinkpad. It is a piece of junk with an obnoxious tendency towards screen-flickering. I bought it because it was the cheapest machine in the store, so I expected this. Take from that what you will.


Are you sure you didn't buy a "Thunkpad"?


I'm now sure I DID buy a Thunkpad.

judgeholden
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby judgeholden » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:08 am

ResolutePear wrote:
judgeholden wrote:Undoubtedly a larger percentage of PC users have issues. There are a few reasons for this, almost all based around the simple fact that PCs aren't 85% of the market, they're 93%, give or take 2%. Macs are 5%, Linux/Other is 2%. That's an enormously large difference.


You are aware that in most cases, Linux is run on a PC, right? These numbers smell to me like they're from around 2003; although using the same rationale.. every Mac post-2005ish is a PC as well.

I think it'd be better to compare Operating systems. At any rate, would a difference of 85% to 93% break your analysis in any way, shape, or form? Why even bring it up?


When discussing "Mac vs. PC," "PC" tends to mean Windows, not any other OS that can be used on a non-Mac machine. If you want to be fair, every Mac ever made is a PC. But that's not how their marketing uses the term, nor is it how it's been used in this thread. You say that the post-2005 Macs are PCs, nope. Intel processors don't make them more a PC than the PowerPC chip from IBM did.

But if you want to question my numbers as 2003, well, how about September 2009-July 2010?
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-mark ... px?qprid=9
Looks like my guess was 100% accurate, even without the +/- 2%.

2003 was near when Microsoft invested 100 million into Apple, when Steve Jobs was really in the middle of making it over, and when it had about a 2.3% market share. So, while it's nearly doubled in 7 years, it's also been mostly flatlining for the past 4.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Lenovo Thinkpad or Dell?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:42 pm

judgeholden wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
judgeholden wrote:Undoubtedly a larger percentage of PC users have issues. There are a few reasons for this, almost all based around the simple fact that PCs aren't 85% of the market, they're 93%, give or take 2%. Macs are 5%, Linux/Other is 2%. That's an enormously large difference.


You are aware that in most cases, Linux is run on a PC, right? These numbers smell to me like they're from around 2003; although using the same rationale.. every Mac post-2005ish is a PC as well.

I think it'd be better to compare Operating systems. At any rate, would a difference of 85% to 93% break your analysis in any way, shape, or form? Why even bring it up?


When discussing "Mac vs. PC," "PC" tends to mean Windows, not any other OS that can be used on a non-Mac machine. If you want to be fair, every Mac ever made is a PC. But that's not how their marketing uses the term, nor is it how it's been used in this thread. You say that the post-2005 Macs are PCs, nope. Intel processors don't make them more a PC than the PowerPC chip from IBM did.

But if you want to question my numbers as 2003, well, how about September 2009-July 2010?
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-mark ... px?qprid=9
Looks like my guess was 100% accurate, even without the +/- 2%.

2003 was near when Microsoft invested 100 million into Apple, when Steve Jobs was really in the middle of making it over, and when it had about a 2.3% market share. So, while it's nearly doubled in 7 years, it's also been mostly flatlining for the past 4.


I'm not going to sit here and argue points like an economist; which I am not.

What I will argue is, does a ~5-7 point difference break your analysis? Will 85% change anything compared to 92%, or was it just a stab for the sake of the stab?

I will also argue that PCs are those computers based off x86 or x64 architectures hence why I made the distinction with SPARC processors. Macs have had a different architectures since then, most notably: PowerPC. Even your source doesn't generalize Windows as a PC - that's not even Mac's rhetoric, Apple's sales model is based off the purchase of hardware so they target hardware, not software.




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