Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

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HeavenWood
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Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby HeavenWood » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:22 pm

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Last edited by HeavenWood on Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

03121202698008
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby 03121202698008 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:28 pm

Yes, in many cases the job outlook is that bleak. While your father's firm may have partners from T2-4 schools, that is the exception and very few make it. It's like saying you are going to be in the NFL. If you want to stay in Philly, Temple has pretty decent placement. (Second only to Penn most of whose grads leave for NY/DC). Even when grads from lower schools find jobs, the starting salary is much lower ($40K-60K) which is pretty bad if you have $200K in student debt.

Dickinson places better in Central PA if you want to work in York/'burg/Lancaster. Pitt places better if you want to work in Pitt. Outside of the T14, they are very regional.

If I were you, I'd take another year to get your LSAT up if need be. The LSAT is very learnable.

Because of the way law school classes are graded, you cannot assume you will be in the top of your class. All of your classmates will have similar levels of ability/experience/motivation and grades are very random.

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gdane
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby gdane » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:43 pm

Things are bleak, but much of what's said on here is extremely exaggerated. People focus on the negative and hash it around to the point where everyone on here thinks that its the end of the world.

Going to a T14 really helps you find the best legal employment out there, but its not necessary. The key thing is to go to a respected law school in a region in which you have no problems working in. Most law schools are regional so rank doesnt matter as much as some people think it does.

Just do well on the LSAT and apply high. See what happens and go from there.

Good luck!

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biggamejames
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby biggamejames » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:28 pm

Luckily for you, things are really only that bleak for people with no connections. Nepotism > grades + t14.

HOV
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby HOV » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:40 pm

biggamejames wrote:Luckily for you, things are really only that bleak for people with no connections. Nepotism > grades + t14.


this is something people too often forget.

trying to get as far as you can in life without using your connections to your advantage is respectable. i wouldn't take that route though. i'm too driven and too motivated to not take advantage of every opportunity available to me. for me it's more about the ends than the means. there are obvious boundaries i would never transgress but using a connection like the one you've got isn't one of them.

good luck buddy.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:47 pm

It's not that bleak unless you are a liberal arts major (like 50%+ of any given law school) that never interned anywhere or impressed anyone and received mediocre or worse law school grades.

But seriously (as if that wasn't), if you have bad grades, it is that bad. However, most lawyers end up doing better than they would have 5 and 10 years out had they not decided to attend law school.

Taking on a lot of debt to attend law school is not a good idea. Period (i.e., paying full price for anywhere under HYS).

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biggamejames
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby biggamejames » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:53 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:It's not that bleak unless you are a liberal arts major (like 50%+ of any given law school) that never interned anywhere or impressed anyone and received mediocre or worse law school grades.

TCR. I'm slightly above median at a t-14, never interned anywhere before I went to law school (too busy working shitty retail/service industry jobs to pay rent) and I'm struggling to find any damn job for after graduation. It's rough out there, kids.

reverendt
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby reverendt » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:58 pm

OP...this isn't really related to your question but be aware that where you went to undergrad has little to no bearing on your being accepted to a top law school. You're gpa matters...not the school you went to.

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gdane
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby gdane » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:32 pm

biggamejames wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:It's not that bleak unless you are a liberal arts major (like 50%+ of any given law school) that never interned anywhere or impressed anyone and received mediocre or worse law school grades.

TCR. I'm slightly above median at a t-14, never interned anywhere before I went to law school (too busy working shitty retail/service industry jobs to pay rent) and I'm struggling to find any damn job for after graduation. It's rough out there, kids.


Ugh. This is what I'm afraid of. Since my family and I were poor as hell I had to work full time during UG to support myself and help my dad. I never made "legal" connections (how many can you make working at home depot?). I'm really hoping I have this opportunity during law school. Really hope.

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biggamejames
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby biggamejames » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:45 pm

gdane5 wrote:
biggamejames wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:It's not that bleak unless you are a liberal arts major (like 50%+ of any given law school) that never interned anywhere or impressed anyone and received mediocre or worse law school grades.

TCR. I'm slightly above median at a t-14, never interned anywhere before I went to law school (too busy working shitty retail/service industry jobs to pay rent) and I'm struggling to find any damn job for after graduation. It's rough out there, kids.

Ugh. This is what I'm afraid of. Since my family and I were poor as hell I had to work full time during UG to support myself and help my dad. I never made "legal" connections (how many can you make working at home depot?). I'm really hoping I have this opportunity during law school. Really hope.

You totally can if you really put yourself out there. I didn't, because I discovered that, while I really love legal work, I kind of hate almost all lawyers. Therefore I chose to make nonlegal friends and am now paying for it :mrgreen:

You'll be fine, though, I'm sure.

grouchynihilist
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby grouchynihilist » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:01 pm

You're going to hear stories about people who are still making it fine in law, and many more about people suffering. Anyone can provide anecdotal evidence. But the fact is that it's tough right now, and going to law school anywhere is a risk. The risk is smaller at a T14 or preferably HYS, and exponentially increases down the rankings. There are no more guarantees even from HYS., some graduates there can't find a job

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Matteliszt
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby Matteliszt » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:43 pm

Just curious, you guys saying "You'll be fine" are any of you working attorneys?

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:12 am

I hear that law schools sew your asshole shut when you graduate until you find "lawful" employment.

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servinDizzert
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby servinDizzert » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:25 am

I wish I had my way paved. Honestly. I am a pioneer in my family by going into the legal profession.

Sit back take a full ride at some T3/T4 with no regard to class rank....and still receive 6 figs? Yes Please.

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nealric
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby nealric » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:23 pm

Luckily for you, things are really only that bleak for people with no connections. Nepotism > grades + t14.


Sit back take a full ride at some T3/T4 with no regard to class rank....and still receive 6 figs? Yes Please.


Nepotism only goes so far in any larger organization. Even with nepotism, biglaw isn't giving an offer to someone at the bottom of the class at a T4 unless they are the name partner's kid or something. Many large firms have anti-nepotism policies, which mean relatives can't get you a job. At that point, you might have family friends, but those types of connections only get you the callback- not the offer.

To answer the OP: Yes, it's bleak. I don't think the bleakness has anything to do with UG major as an above poster pointed out. Among my friends (I'm a recent T14 graduate), the ones who are unemployed are ones who never developed a passion in law and/or didn't have top-notch grades. Good grades get you on the biglaw boat, and you only need an OK personality. But once you miss that, it comes down to developing a specialty and networking. Not everyone has the personality to be a great networker.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:53 pm

There are actually anti-nepotism policies at a lot of larger firms re: family members, so there's that, too.

HeavenWood
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:56 pm

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Last edited by HeavenWood on Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:24 pm

HeavenWood wrote:Here's my situation:

Since I attended an in-state school on scholarship, my parents have agreed to take care of all my law school expenses.

I do plan on using my father's connections. The only question is to what extent? If he can make a few phone calls and land me a good job at a good firm out of law school, all the better.

He also said I could get a job at his firm, if necessary. That would be 125k, which is a great start in Philly. But I also don't know if working with my father is the best idea. I have a good relationship with the man, and don't want to sour it.


Well, I don't know much about law firms.. but I do know about business.

When I worked with friends or family.. my motto was always: "There are no friends/family in business. Only profits and losses." Basically, if you did your job and made profit, no prob. If you fuck around and cost money - you're going to get yelled at, insulted, fired, etc., no different than a regular employee.

People took it to heart and I never had a problem with it since family/friends knew that what I did when working was for business and nothing more. Sorta like when pornstars smack each other around and bang... I wouldn't imagine they feel.. sore against each other or otherwise. It's just business.

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biggamejames
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby biggamejames » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:01 pm

HeavenWood wrote:He also said I could get a job at his firm, if necessary. That would be 125k, which is a great start in Philly. But I also don't know if working with my father is the best idea. I have a good relationship with the man, and don't want to sour it.

Fuck man, take it. Philly's where I am, and as far as I can tell, jobs are hard to come by.

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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby d34d9823 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:05 pm

ResolutePear wrote:Well, I don't know much about law firms.. but I do know about business.

When I worked with friends or family.. my motto was always: "There are no friends/family in business. Only profits and losses." Basically, if you did your job and made profit, no prob. If you fuck around and cost money - you're going to get yelled at, insulted, fired, etc., no different than a regular employee.

People took it to heart and I never had a problem with it since family/friends knew that what I did when working was for business and nothing more. Sorta like when pornstars smack each other around and bang... I wouldn't imagine they feel.. sore against each other or otherwise. It's just business.

Lawyers and pornstars: screwing other people for money with no hard feelings.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:06 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:Lawyers and pornstars: screwing other people for money with no hard feelings.


Quoted for truth.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:55 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Well, I don't know much about law firms.. but I do know about business.

When I worked with friends or family.. my motto was always: "There are no friends/family in business. Only profits and losses." Basically, if you did your job and made profit, no prob. If you fuck around and cost money - you're going to get yelled at, insulted, fired, etc., no different than a regular employee.

People took it to heart and I never had a problem with it since family/friends knew that what I did when working was for business and nothing more. Sorta like when pornstars smack each other around and bang... I wouldn't imagine they feel.. sore against each other or otherwise. It's just business.

Lawyers and pornstars: screwing other people for money with no hard feelings.


you forgot an infinite number of other professions...

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Iconoclast
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby Iconoclast » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:13 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:Well, I don't know much about law firms.. but I do know about business.

When I worked with friends or family.. my motto was always: "There are no friends/family in business. Only profits and losses." Basically, if you did your job and made profit, no prob. If you fuck around and cost money - you're going to get yelled at, insulted, fired, etc., no different than a regular employee.

People took it to heart and I never had a problem with it since family/friends knew that what I did when working was for business and nothing more. Sorta like when pornstars smack each other around and bang... I wouldn't imagine they feel.. sore against each other or otherwise. It's just business.

Lawyers and pornstars: screwing other people for money with no hard feelings.


you forgot an infinite number of other professions...


yeah, like the dude at the drive thru!

They always screw ya at the drive thru..... *grumbles*

NoJob
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby NoJob » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:43 pm

nealric wrote:
Luckily for you, things are really only that bleak for people with no connections. Nepotism > grades + t14.


Sit back take a full ride at some T3/T4 with no regard to class rank....and still receive 6 figs? Yes Please.


Nepotism only goes so far in any larger organization. Even with nepotism, biglaw isn't giving an offer to someone at the bottom of the class at a T4 unless they are the name partner's kid or something. Many large firms have anti-nepotism policies, which mean relatives can't get you a job. At that point, you might have family friends, but those types of connections only get you the callback- not the offer.

To answer the OP: Yes, it's bleak. I don't think the bleakness has anything to do with UG major as an above poster pointed out. Among my friends (I'm a recent T14 graduate), the ones who are unemployed are ones who never developed a passion in law and/or didn't have top-notch grades. Good grades get you on the biglaw boat, and you only need an OK personality. But once you miss that, it comes down to developing a specialty and networking. Not everyone has the personality to be a great networker.


Networking. Seriously? That's some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Is Post-Law School Employment Really That Bleak?

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:49 pm

I wish they would create a new term to replace "network/ing", I fkn hate it and it is tossed around way to much




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