Advantage of T20? Forum

[kmarks]

For TLS users, I have a rather shocking question...

What is the advantage of going to a top school (ie. T20)?

I understand peoples' desire to go to a T20 if they want to go into Biglaw, but what advantages does it have for someone, like myself, with a strong interest in public interest and/or government?

Secondly, I know that higher-ranked schools tend to have a more extensive alumni network and national reputation. Assuming a person already has connections (from internships, college network, etc) and the social skills to actually network on their own, why should someone interested in, say, public interest choose Chicago over Northeastern other than for the sweatshirt/bragging rights?

I'm not necessarily knocking the high-ranked schools and am, honestly, applying to a fair number myself, but I was just wondering considering all the hostility I've seen when anyone even mentions a school below #30.

[miamiman]

For TLS users, I have a rather shocking question...

What is the advantage of going to a top school (ie. T20)?

I understand peoples' desire to go to a T20 if they want to go into Biglaw, but what advantages does it have for someone, like myself, with a strong interest in public interest and/or government?

Secondly, I know that higher-ranked schools tend to have a more extensive alumni network and national reputation. Assuming a person already has connections (from internships, college network, etc) and the social skills to actually network on their own, why should someone interested in, say, public interest choose Chicago over Northeastern other than for the sweatshirt/bragging rights?

I'm not necessarily knocking the high-ranked schools and am, honestly, applying to a fair number myself, but I was just wondering considering all the hostility I've seen when anyone even mentions a school below #30.

Hmm. Let me see if I can succinctly respond to all this; your question covers a lot of territory:

1) The T20 distinction you cite is, like most numbered cutoffs, arbitrary. The dominant view on TLS is that there exists a T14 and, within that, perhaps smaller subtiers. But, beyond the T14, it really is just Tier 1, Tier 2, and then everybody else. What this implies is that if you're interested in biglaw, prestigious government, or prestigious PI, you really need to be at one of those 14 (or so) schools to maximize your chances. The benefit of a T20 over say a T50 in terms of BigLaw is miniscule compared to the benefit of attending Cornell over, say, Indiana.

2) In light of 1), the hypothetical you raise is a valid one. Why would somebody who is confident they aren't interested in one of those aforementioned jobs select a big name school at sticker over a regional school with a sizable scholarship. I think the general view on TLS is that your preferences change over the course of your career and those schools keep more options open at the outset. Another reason is that those schools maximize your chance of gainful employment at the absolute beginning of your career. As you know, the field is under some strain right now. Jobs aren't super easy to come by.

3) Finally, why all the top law school love? Prestige, employment options, transferability to other fields, etc. Going to Chicago will open more doors in your career than Northeastern. hth.

[stratocophic]

For TLS users, I have a rather shocking question...

What is the advantage of going to a top school (ie. T20)?

I understand peoples' desire to go to a T20 if they want to go into Biglaw, but what advantages does it have for someone, like myself, with a strong interest in public interest and/or government?

Secondly, I know that higher-ranked schools tend to have a more extensive alumni network and national reputation. Assuming a person already has connections (from internships, college network, etc) and the social skills to actually network on their own, why should someone interested in, say, public interest choose Chicago over Northeastern other than for the sweatshirt/bragging rights?

I'm not necessarily knocking the high-ranked schools and am, honestly, applying to a fair number myself, but I was just wondering considering all the hostility I've seen when anyone even mentions a school below #30.

Hmm. Let me see if I can succinctly respond to all this; your question covers a lot of territory:

1) The T20 distinction you cite is, like most numbered cutoffs, arbitrary. The dominant view on TLS is that there exists a T14 and, within that, perhaps smaller subtiers. But, beyond the T14, it really is just Tier 1, Tier 2, and then everybody else. What this implies is that if you're interested in biglaw, prestigious government, or prestigious PI, you really need to be at one of those 14 (or so) schools to maximize your chances. The benefit of a T20 over say a T50 in terms of BigLaw is miniscule compared to the benefit of attending Cornell over, say, Indiana.

2) In light of 1), the hypothetical you raise is a valid one. Why would somebody who is confident they aren't interested in one of those aforementioned jobs select a big name school at sticker over a regional school with a sizable scholarship. I think the general view on TLS is that your preferences change over the course of your career and those schools keep more options open at the outset. Another reason is that those schools maximize your chance of gainful employment at the absolute beginning of your career. As you know, the field is under some strain right now. Jobs aren't super easy to come by.

3) Finally, why all the top law school love? Prestige, employment options, transferability to other fields, etc. Going to Chicago will open more doors in your career than Northeastern. hth.

Preftige + IBR and/or possible LRAP = Win

[rayiner]

PI/govt work can be prestige conscious. I'm working at the FCC this summer, and my supervising attorneys are all T14 grads (well, one is UT).

[vanwinkle]

PI/govt work can be prestige conscious. I'm working at the FCC this summer, and my supervising attorneys are all T14 grads (well, one is UT).

This. Federal work especially. There are only so many federal legal jobs, and they tend to be highly desirable... The weight of your degree really helps there, from what I've seen and heard so far.

[kmarks]

PI/govt work can be prestige conscious. I'm working at the FCC this summer, and my supervising attorneys are all T14 grads (well, one is UT).

I think the general view on TLS is that your preferences change over the course of your career and those schools keep more options open at the outset.

Both good points that I didn't really consider.

Though (and I could be completely wrong/naive about this) don't schools which specialize in PI, like LoyolaLA and Northeastern, cater the curriculum (in terms of course offerings) and have more PI-focused jobs recruit than a school which is strong in, say, tax and/or patent law?

[270910]

Both good points that I didn't really consider.

Though (and I could be completely wrong/naive about this) don't schools which specialize in PI, like LoyolaLA and Northeastern, cater the curriculum (in terms of course offerings) and have more PI-focused jobs recruit than a school which is strong in, say, tax and/or patent law?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA No.

I don't mean to be cruel, there's no reason this information should be intuitive. But here's the deal: law school sub-specialty rankings are in 99% of all instances useless. Law school teaches you nothing worth knowing and nothing that will impress a legal recruiter. The name of the school and its placement in the overall pecking order is substantially more important. Legal recruiters do not (tiny exception for intellectual property in a tiny number of circumstances) recruit out of specific schools for specific reasons.

The MAJOR exception is geography. But since there are T14 schools around the country...

The moral of the story is that the top 14 law schools don't just place the most into big law. They also place the most into whatever job their grads want. You can question the rationality of the system all day and all night, and I'll stroke your hair and hand you a beer, but that's how it works. There are huge advantages at every stage of the job hunt for nearly every kind of legal work beyond hanging your own shingle that come with going to a 'top' or 'national' school - loosely defined as the T20, probably the T14, and definitely the T10.

[kmarks]

Yes yes, how foolish of me.

Totally understandable, but doesn't the co-op program at Northeastern have a good national reputation and network within the PI community? Someone being top 20% at Northeastern and having hands-on experience seems, to me, to be a better candidate than someone who goes to Michigan, is in the middle of their class, and has little to no real-world experience...

[Again, I'm merely just asking, and have already succumb to just accepting The System]

[270910]

Yes yes, how foolish of me.

Totally understandable, but doesn't the co-op program at Northeastern have a good national reputation and network within the PI community? Someone being top 20% at Northeastern and having hands-on experience seems, to me, to be a better candidate than someone who goes to Michigan, is in the middle of their class, and has little to no real-world experience...

[Again, I'm merely just asking, and have already succumb to just accepting The System]

I'm not sure it is possible, under any set of circumstances, for a Northeastern grad to position him or herself as a candidate in a 'better position' for a job than a Michigan graduate.

Obviously I exaggerate, but the legal world is very prestige and credentials oriented. For truly local public interest work - the public defender in Small Town County or whatever, the name of your school is almost irrelevant. But for any given person aware of their goals, all law schools provide opportunities for clinical work and hands on type stuff. To the extent it helps employment prospects, it's because it's exposure to the employer over summers or semesters - quite feasible for students at any law school.

[Threepeat]

Yes yes, how foolish of me.

Totally understandable, but doesn't the co-op program at Northeastern have a good national reputation and network within the PI community? Someone being top 20% at Northeastern and having hands-on experience seems, to me, to be a better candidate than someone who goes to Michigan, is in the middle of their class, and has little to no real-world experience...

[Again, I'm merely just asking, and will be quick to admit I know little about this stuff]

This is pure speculation, but I would think this hypothetical would be true based on class rank alone, regardless of experience and/or co-op programs.

Edit: RC failure. I thought he said NorthWESTERN. Big difference.
This example would never be true if it is Northeastern.

[kmarks]

Ahhh well thanks for the feedback, I guess I better get into my top choices then ...

[270910]

Ahhh well thanks for the feedback, I guess I better get into my top choices then ...

Just keep in mind that after the T14, T20 or so it's much more important to go to a respect school in your region. Rankings mean almost nothing after that.

And within the T20/T14, geography, culture, offered scholarship money, etc. can mean more depending on your career goals. That's because within the top schools, performance 1L year means much more than school you started at. While, say, Cravath (as an example, I realize you probably aren't looking for a corporate law firm) will higher deeper into the class at Columbia than at Cornell, you still have to do very well at either school to have any chance at all at Cravath.

[Patriot1208]

It's been addressed above but it depends on the PI job you want. The three federal prosecutors I have met, one went to harvard, one went to Virginia, and one to WUSTL. But if you want your small rhode island town DA's office or public defenders office you'll be fine going to a local school with scholarship and interning over the summer. Also, I think you WAY overestimate the extent to which undergraduate connections through internships or the like will help you in legal jobs after law school.

[kmarks]

Does anyone know about public interest jobs abroad?

I'd imagine that the more recognizable the school name, the easier it'll be to find work internationally. But (in my experiences from living abroad) more people know Syracuse than know Vanderbilt although there is a drastic difference in rankings.

Also, I think you WAY overestimate the extent to which undergraduate connections through internships or the like will help you in legal jobs after law school.

... I could see this, good point

[Patriot1208]

This is speculation, but I know from my experience overseas that lay prestige is very different in Europe than in the US. But I would imagine that the people who are doing the hiring are in the know.

[danquayle]

Yes yes, how foolish of me.

Totally understandable, but doesn't the co-op program at Northeastern have a good national reputation and network within the PI community? Someone being top 20% at Northeastern and having hands-on experience seems, to me, to be a better candidate than someone who goes to Michigan, is in the middle of their class, and has little to no real-world experience...

[Again, I'm merely just asking, and have already succumb to just accepting The System]

The only time I've ever seen this to be the case is if a law student starts interning with an organization during law school and develops strong enough bonds with that organization that they decide to keep the student on after graduation. Obviously you'd need to be at a law school where this is feasible (read: in a city). Even then, this is more about ingratiating yourself to a certain organization than developing enough skills to become a "better" candidate.

[Grizz]

Shameless plug for T17.

[miamiman]

Shameless plug for T17.

BASS BARRY BIGLAW FOR THE WIN.

[Grizz]

Shameless plug for T17.

BASS BARRY BIGLAW FOR THE WIN.

NashvillelegalaidclinicSECURE

[miamiman]

Shameless plug for T17.

BASS BARRY BIGLAW FOR THE WIN.

NashvillelegalaidclinicSECURE

I literally just started salivating. Uncontrollably.