law school employment and T14 syndrome

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thecilent
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby thecilent » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:56 pm

vandalvideo wrote:
thisguy456 wrote:
Hey guys, I'm just gonna be an asshole and play the contrarian and have an opinion and refuse to budge despite the evidence out there and I will refuse to provide my own evidence for why I think the way I do.


Questioning the foundation for the opinions of others does not itself constitute an opinion. Do I think that a WM experience is equal to Harvard? I don't know. I honestly, wholeheartedly don't know. Many out there claim they do know, and the answer is no. I'm merely asking them to convince me with an honest, thorough investigation. That is not being "contrarian", that is being intellectually curious.


DO YOUR OWN INVESTIGATION

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rayiner
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby rayiner » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:56 pm

Asking for proof is good, but it's important to realize that nobody is going to come out and say "we have disproportionately higher hiring standards for people outside the T14."

But you can infer the existence of this biglaw hiring pipeline just by going to nalpdirectory and taking a look at their statistics. Take a random biglaw firm, Jones Day NY. Look then up on nalpdirectory: --LinkRemoved--

Under "Compensation and Employment Data" you'll see a line "Entry-level". That's the number of entry-level graduates hired by the firm. Under that are lines for 1L, 2L, and 3L hiring.

Note a couple things:

1) There is no 3L hiring. Most firms are like this.
2) The number of folks who started in 2010 (22) is very close to the number of folks who summered in 2009 (24). The next chart shows that everyone got an offer, so those other two folks are likely off at a clerkship.

At least at Jones Day, it seems correct to assume that nearly everyone who gets hired for entry-level work gets that job through OCI.

270910
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby 270910 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:56 pm

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Grizz
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby Grizz » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:58 pm

vandalvideo wrote:
I'm not a troll, I'm just a guy asking for evidence. I took this long to respond because I was taking the time to actually read the links you provided. About half of them are anecdotes from law school graduates complaining about the legal market, a small amount showing the distribution of big law jobs between schools, another good portion showing the state of OCI recruitment on campuses, and some showing the wealth distribution among graduates at some provided schools. I assume you didn't expect me to dig through the links you provided. None of them establish which medium law graduates obtain their big law jobs through. Nor does it necessarily show where the wealth from the classes is coming from. Your links provide great general oversight of the type of wealth one can expect from given schools, but it doesn't say where that wealth is coming from. You just compiled a list of random links which don't really overcome the objections I brought up. I still demand to know;

How you know that OCI is the main avenue by which big law recruits and how you know that big law constitutes the largest sector of wealth for law graduates. None of this was address in your links.


CHECK YOU NALP DIRECTORY

270910
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby 270910 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:01 pm

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fenway
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby fenway » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:03 pm

class rank is measured on how you perform within your class. i'm going to go out on a limb, but I don't think someone top 5% at WM would place top 25% HYS (and that's being convervative--my unfiltered intuition is more around 35-50%, although i know HYS do not "rank" per say. but im going with the general concept). Class rank is relative to peers--and the comparison between HYS students and WM students doesn't really exist. So prestige is not simply some detached sticker brand, it's more of a way to fairly acknowledge that students at top schools are being graded on a more competitive curve.

This also connects to why I think people underestimate the validity of the LSAT. the students with the highest LSAT scores for the most part form together at the top schools--and then compete between one another within a class rank/grade system. If you were to give every law student the same exam(s) and mark them on a single curve, I think it would more accurately reveal why adcoms put so much emphasis into the LSAT. not the end all be all, but the current correlation stats don't fully articulate the test's efficacy.

270910
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby 270910 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:06 pm

fenway wrote:class rank is measured on how you perform within your class. i'm going to go out on a limb, but I don't think someone top 5% at WM would place top 25% HYS (and that's being convervative--my unfiltered intuition is more around 35-50%, although i know HYS do not "rank" per say. but im going with the general concept). Class rank is relative to peers--and the comparison between HYS students and WM students doesn't really exist. So prestige is not simply some detached sticker brand, it's more of a way to fairly acknowledge that students at top schools are being graded on a more competitive curve.

This also connects to why I think people underestimate the validity of the LSAT. the students with the highest LSAT scores for the most part form together at the top schools--and then compete between one another within a class rank/grade system. If you were to give every law student the same exam(s) and mark them on a single curve, I think it would more accurately reveal why adcoms put so much emphasis into the LSAT. not the end all be all, but the current correlation stats don't fully articulate the test's efficacy.


This is quite wrong. We'll never have a study showing us how students would perform at different schools, but the rate at which a student does well on exams isn't a measure of raw intellect. People who struggle with the exam format are going to struggle everywhere, people who 'get' it often aren't well predicted by LSAT and will dominate anywhere. The closest we get to this are transfers - and I can tell you that transfers often do extraordinarily well in their new schools, well enough to make your "top 5% WM would be more like top third at HYS" close to objectively false based on actual available data points.

reverendt
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby reverendt » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:21 pm

bosox31 wrote:3) It seems to me that HLS will be much more difficult to get top 30% in than William and Mary.

No.
For one thing, there have been strong arguments made that HYS students are more likely to rest on their laurels, and thus the competition will be less fierce than at lower ranked schools.

Beyond that, realize that the difference between a HLS student and a W&M student is generally an LSAT score. That's it. One was in the top 90% of LSAT takers, the other was in the top 97% or so.
While the LSAT does test some of the skills required for law school, it is VERY different from a law school exam.
Thus, I don't see much of a meaningful difference between the level that a typical Harvard student will perform at, and the level a typical William and Mary student will perform at.
The will probably be even less difference between the top students at the respective schools.

fenway
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby fenway » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:26 pm

disco_barred wrote:
fenway wrote:class rank is measured on how you perform within your class. i'm going to go out on a limb, but I don't think someone top 5% at WM would place top 25% HYS (and that's being convervative--my unfiltered intuition is more around 35-50%, although i know HYS do not "rank" per say. but im going with the general concept). Class rank is relative to peers--and the comparison between HYS students and WM students doesn't really exist. So prestige is not simply some detached sticker brand, it's more of a way to fairly acknowledge that students at top schools are being graded on a more competitive curve.

This also connects to why I think people underestimate the validity of the LSAT. the students with the highest LSAT scores for the most part form together at the top schools--and then compete between one another within a class rank/grade system. If you were to give every law student the same exam(s) and mark them on a single curve, I think it would more accurately reveal why adcoms put so much emphasis into the LSAT. not the end all be all, but the current correlation stats don't fully articulate the test's efficacy.


This is quite wrong. We'll never have a study showing us how students would perform at different schools, but the rate at which a student does well on exams isn't a measure of raw intellect. People who struggle with the exam format are going to struggle everywhere, people who 'get' it often aren't well predicted by LSAT and will dominate anywhere. The closest we get to this are transfers - and I can tell you that transfers often do extraordinarily well in their new schools, well enough to make your "top 5% WM would be more like top third at HYS" close to objectively false based on actual available data points.


I take issue with "often" because again you are basing performance on the current structure. i'm not arguing I have data to support my "theory" because people are not lumped together into one big whole and examined (besides on the lsat...). My point is that IF you were to do so, the LSAT would likely show a more compelling correlation. I'm not saying that a person could not transfer from WM to HYS and do well--there is no way to combat anecdotal evidence. but you also cannot say that because someone performs well at a less competitive school that they would "dominate" at a more competitive school--there's no substantial available data for that either

to be jokingly offensive, I (hope) that I'd drop 25/10 in the special olympics (not actually comparing WM to SO..). but if I were to go up against Lebron and Wade in the Summer games, I'd probably not touch the ball. point: gotta take into account who you are playing against

rando
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby rando » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:51 pm

fenway wrote:
to be jokingly offensive, I (hope) that I'd drop 25/10 in the special olympics (not actually comparing WM to SO..). but if I were to go up against Lebron and Wade in the Summer games, I'd probably not touch the ball. point: gotta take into account who you are playing against


This doesn't make your point. Your conclusion rests in your premise. You are assuming that a high LSAT makes you Lebron James and a Low LSAT puts you in the special olympics re; law school test taking. But statistical studies and transfer data points suggest that High LSAT's correlate to doing very well on the LSAT and roughly .16 correlation to doing well in LS.

rando
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby rando » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:54 pm

If someone has the link to the bimodal salary distributions that may help vandal understand at least the wealth distribution he is looking for. All the high paying salaries are exactly what biglaw salaries run and there is an enormous middle wasteland before you get down to the 40-60k area.

Further, Vandal. Just talk to your career center or call a recruiter at any biglaw shop and ask them how they recruit. If you go to any of their webpages these firms make it very clear that they do their recruiting at campus OCI. I don't know what your issue is. And no, I'm not going to go find links for you. I am far too lazy and you're far too annoying.

fenway
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby fenway » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:06 pm

rando wrote:
fenway wrote:
to be jokingly offensive, I (hope) that I'd drop 25/10 in the special olympics (not actually comparing WM to SO..). but if I were to go up against Lebron and Wade in the Summer games, I'd probably not touch the ball. point: gotta take into account who you are playing against


This doesn't make your point. Your conclusion rests in your premise. You are assuming that a high LSAT makes you Lebron James and a Low LSAT puts you in the special olympics re; law school test taking. But statistical studies and transfer data points suggest that High LSAT's correlate to doing very well on the LSAT and roughly .16 correlation to doing well in LS.



the .16 correlation is based on how people do within more/less competitive classes. As a general rule, I'll take the HYS who had a 175 who has a 3.0 over a 4.0 student Suffolk who had a 158. The stats here work against the correlation for the LSAT, but its actual efficacy cannot be proved unless you had every law student take the same torts exam on the same curve. I'm hypothesizing that the .16 would rise markedly.

270910
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby 270910 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:11 pm

fenway wrote:
rando wrote:
fenway wrote:
to be jokingly offensive, I (hope) that I'd drop 25/10 in the special olympics (not actually comparing WM to SO..). but if I were to go up against Lebron and Wade in the Summer games, I'd probably not touch the ball. point: gotta take into account who you are playing against


This doesn't make your point. Your conclusion rests in your premise. You are assuming that a high LSAT makes you Lebron James and a Low LSAT puts you in the special olympics re; law school test taking. But statistical studies and transfer data points suggest that High LSAT's correlate to doing very well on the LSAT and roughly .16 correlation to doing well in LS.



the .16 correlation is based on how people do within more/less competitive classes. As a general rule, I'll take the HYS who had a 175 who has a 3.0 over a 4.0 student Suffolk who had a 158. The stats here work against the correlation for the LSAT, but its actual efficacy cannot be proved unless you had every law student take the same torts exam on the same curve. I'm hypothesizing that the .16 would rise markedly.


OK. You just hypothesize away in your corner.

I'm not even disagreeing with you, a 3.8/176 is probably more talented and hard working than a 3.0/158. My point is that law school exams are so bizarre and the feedback so poor that talent and hardwork don't get you very far, so you can't just assume transplants would do better at worse schools or worse at better schools. The X factor, which is how one's brain adapts to the task of writing a law school exam (and one much work one puts into that particular skill), absolutely dwarfs and engulfs and obliterates mental agility and hard work.

rando
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby rando » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:15 pm

fenway wrote:
rando wrote:
fenway wrote:
to be jokingly offensive, I (hope) that I'd drop 25/10 in the special olympics (not actually comparing WM to SO..). but if I were to go up against Lebron and Wade in the Summer games, I'd probably not touch the ball. point: gotta take into account who you are playing against


This doesn't make your point. Your conclusion rests in your premise. You are assuming that a high LSAT makes you Lebron James and a Low LSAT puts you in the special olympics re; law school test taking. But statistical studies and transfer data points suggest that High LSAT's correlate to doing very well on the LSAT and roughly .16 correlation to doing well in LS.



the .16 correlation is based on how people do within more/less competitive classes. As a general rule, I'll take the HYS who had a 175 who has a 3.0 over a 4.0 student Suffolk who had a 158. The stats here work against the correlation for the LSAT, but its actual efficacy cannot be proved unless you had every law student take the same torts exam on the same curve. I'm hypothesizing that the .16 would rise markedly.


You realize that the regression accounts for what you are referring to, right? Your theory would only hold assuming everyone at HYS had the same LSAT, which we all know, they do not.

You taking the HYS student with a 3.0 (none of whom actually have gpa's but whatever) over a T3 student with a 4.0 flies in the face of transfer students who tend to excel at their new institutions yet they have markedly lower LSAT's than their new peers.

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paratactical
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby paratactical » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:02 pm

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Last edited by paratactical on Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Borhas
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby Borhas » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:31 pm

get it to x wrote:Borhas, I have to disagree in part that the main goal of TLS forumites is obtaining a high paying job.
Are there a significant number of prestige whores on here? Yes. Do people fudge numbers, schools they've been admitted to and engage in psychological warfare with others to achieve their ends? Yup. However, I believe the heart and soul of TLS is simply risk-aversion. Whether it's taking schollie dollies from NYU vs. sticker from Stanford or IU with money vs. St. Johns at sticker, people are trying to find the best fit that minimizes their risk and puts them in a position to achieve their goals at the least risk to themselves.


well yeah I do think that's right, but I was talking about the individual people's goals

that whole risk-reward equation is based on chance at a high paying job versus debt

but the whole high paying job chance is why TLS people would tell someone to pay $180k to go live at Cornell vs going to W&L for free

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Grizz
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Re: law school employment and T14 syndrome

Postby Grizz » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:37 pm

Borhas wrote:
get it to x wrote:Borhas, I have to disagree in part that the main goal of TLS forumites is obtaining a high paying job.
Are there a significant number of prestige whores on here? Yes. Do people fudge numbers, schools they've been admitted to and engage in psychological warfare with others to achieve their ends? Yup. However, I believe the heart and soul of TLS is simply risk-aversion. Whether it's taking schollie dollies from NYU vs. sticker from Stanford or IU with money vs. St. Johns at sticker, people are trying to find the best fit that minimizes their risk and puts them in a position to achieve their goals at the least risk to themselves.


well yeah I do think that's right, but I was talking about the individual people's goals

that whole risk-reward equation is based on chance at a high paying job versus debt

but the whole high paying job chance is why TLS people would tell someone to pay $180k to go live at Cornell vs going to W&L for free


Blatant anti-GULC trolling.




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