Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

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baconpuffs
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Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby baconpuffs » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:18 pm

My apologies if this is the wrong forum, but I didn't think any other was appropriate.

I constantly see "NY/DC/LA" referenced as Biglaw possibilities for T14 graduates, so I assume those are the places with the most Biglaw opportunities. But what about other metropolitan areas? Is the disparity between these, the largest Biglaw markets, and other areas absolutely massive? I guess the easiest way to ask is this: If NY/DC/LA are the HYS of Biglaw, what is the CCN?

I ask because I'm from Philadelphia and would love to work there post-grad, but I don't want to be pigeonholed into Temple or Villanova (schools that are ranked significantly lower than those I should attend, per my scores) for their regional placement abilities if I can't get into T14.

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nealric
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby nealric » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:34 pm

Just do a nalpdirectory.com search of firms by market. You can literally count how many people started biglaw in a particular market in a particular year.

Philly generally considered a secondary market- it's not a huge legal market, but it's not non-existent.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby keg411 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:03 pm

baconpuffs wrote:My apologies if this is the wrong forum, but I didn't think any other was appropriate.

I constantly see "NY/DC/LA" referenced as Biglaw possibilities for T14 graduates, so I assume those are the places with the most Biglaw opportunities. But what about other metropolitan areas? Is the disparity between these, the largest Biglaw markets, and other areas absolutely massive? I guess the easiest way to ask is this: If NY/DC/LA are the HYS of Biglaw, what is the CCN?

I ask because I'm from Philadelphia and would love to work there post-grad, but I don't want to be pigeonholed into Temple or Villanova (schools that are ranked significantly lower than those I should attend, per my scores) for their regional placement abilities if I can't get into T14.


If you want Philly you are better off with Temple/Villanova (likely with major $$$$) if you can't get into the T14. Law is mostly regional and outside of the T14 you will likely be tied to the region where you go to school or risk your job search being exponentially more difficult (where you will be competing with local grads and their alumni bases). Ranking can be relative after those schools and it would be foolish to attend a school like UIUC/IU/BU/BC/GW/Fordham/WUSTL etc. for Philadelphia over Temple/'Nova on a free ride.

Repeat: Law.Is.Regional

As for Philly as a legal market, it's a secondary market. Not sure if it would be considered "CCN" (I'd think LA/Dallas/Houston/Boston would come before Philly, but it's probably somewhere in the lower end of that group).

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baconpuffs
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby baconpuffs » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:12 pm

Thanks for the excellent responses. The obvious follow-up question, then, is this: are the cases/cities in which a regional school is actually better than T14?

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merichard87
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby merichard87 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:20 pm

baconpuffs wrote:Thanks for the excellent responses. The obvious follow-up question, then, is this: are the cases/cities in which a regional school is actually better than T14?


Probably in a lot of southern cities:

Houston > UT/U fof H
Dallas > UT/ SMU
New Orleans > Tulane
Atlanta > Emory/ UGA
Miami > UM

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby keg411 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:33 pm

baconpuffs wrote:Thanks for the excellent responses. The obvious follow-up question, then, is this: are the cases/cities in which a regional school is actually better than T14?


No; but with the qualifier that in some markets it's important for the T14'er to have ties to the market or be able to convince employers that they want to work there. The smaller the market, the more they will be dominated by regional grads (because in most of those markets, that is the only place for the regional students to work). Employers don't want to think of a T14'er as using the firm as a "backup" until a job in one of the "desirable" markets become available.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby keg411 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:35 pm

merichard87 wrote:
baconpuffs wrote:Thanks for the excellent responses. The obvious follow-up question, then, is this: are the cases/cities in which a regional school is actually better than T14?


Probably in a lot of southern cities:

Houston > UT/U fof H
Dallas > UT/ SMU
New Orleans > Tulane
Atlanta > Emory/ UGA
Miami > UM


No. The only one that's even somewhat applicable is UT.

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baconpuffs
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby baconpuffs » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:39 pm

keg411 wrote:
baconpuffs wrote:Thanks for the excellent responses. The obvious follow-up question, then, is this: are the cases/cities in which a regional school is actually better than T14?


No; but with the qualifier that in some markets it's important for the T14'er to have ties to the market or be able to convince employers that they want to work there. The smaller the market, the more they will be dominated by regional grads (because in most of those markets, that is the only place for the regional students to work). Employers don't want to think of a T14'er as using the firm as a "backup" until a job in one of the "desirable" markets become available.
Awesome, thanks!

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:45 pm

merichard87 wrote:
baconpuffs wrote:Thanks for the excellent responses. The obvious follow-up question, then, is this: are the cases/cities in which a regional school is actually better than T14?


Probably in a lot of southern cities:

Houston > UT/U fof H
Dallas > UT/ SMU
New Orleans > Tulane
Atlanta > Emory/ UGA
Miami > UM

Fixed.

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DGLitcH
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby DGLitcH » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:47 pm

Why is there no mention of Chicago?

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merichard87
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby merichard87 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:50 pm

Damn misread the question. Yea I agree T-14 trumps everything but there is still a lot to be said for strong regional schools like the ones I listed if you don't have the numbers for a T14 or you need scholarship help.

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nealric
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby nealric » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:52 pm

keg411 wrote:
merichard87 wrote:
baconpuffs wrote:Thanks for the excellent responses. The obvious follow-up question, then, is this: are the cases/cities in which a regional school is actually better than T14?


Probably in a lot of southern cities:

Houston > UT/U fof H
Dallas > UT/ SMU
New Orleans > Tulane
Atlanta > Emory/ UGA
Miami > UM


No. The only one that's even somewhat applicable is UT.


Seconded. Even in Texas, T14 trumps regional schools for biglaw. HYSCCN still unequivocally trumps UT.

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clintonius
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby clintonius » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:32 pm

nealric wrote:
keg411 wrote:
merichard87 wrote:
baconpuffs wrote:Thanks for the excellent responses. The obvious follow-up question, then, is this: are the cases/cities in which a regional school is actually better than T14?
Probably in a lot of southern cities:

Houston > UT/U fof H
Dallas > UT/ SMU
New Orleans > Tulane
Atlanta > Emory/ UGA
Miami > UM
No. The only one that's even somewhat applicable is UT.
Seconded. Even in Texas, T14 trumps regional schools for biglaw. HYSCCN still unequivocally trumps UT.

This is true even absent strong ties to the area? I've been entertaining thoughts of trying to head to Texas after NYU, and am surprised to hear the opinion that CCN would beat out UT.

motiontodismiss
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:38 am

Houston/Dallas/Chicago I don't think are second tier markets.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby keg411 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:44 am

motiontodismiss wrote:Houston/Dallas/Chicago I don't think are second tier markets.


Chicago is a primary market (NY/DC/Chi). Houston and Dallas (and all of the other large markets after the "big 3" are secondary including LA/SF.

sumus romani
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby sumus romani » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:58 am

I don't understand why Penn isn't the credited answer here for one of the OP's questions? It is an elite law school, and it is in Philly. What more could you want?

As for the other question: to wit, "what are good secondary markets?" you'll get a million answers, and I can't help you there.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby sdv » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:33 am

sumus romani wrote:I don't understand why Penn isn't the credited answer here for one of the OP's questions? It is an elite law school, and it is in Philly. What more could you want?

As for the other question: to wit, "what are good secondary markets?" you'll get a million answers, and I can't help you there.


I think the question was with the qualifier "outside the T14".

FWIW, though, Penn tends to self select out of Philly. There were less Penn grads who took the PA bar last year than nearly any other law school in the state (I actually think it was the lowest in the state, but I don't remember for sure), and significantly less Penn grads take the PA bar than, for example, Rutgers grads. I'd say that's partly due to Penn connections being very ny centric and partly due to the Philly legal market being among the hardest hit in the country by the recession.

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nealric
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby nealric » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:18 am

This is true even absent strong ties to the area? I've been entertaining thoughts of trying to head to Texas after NYU, and am surprised to hear the opinion that CCN would beat out UT.


Without ties to the area, you are probably DOA in Texas. I should have qualified. That said, ties need not be that you grew up there (but it certainly helps). I tend to assume most people who are interested in Texas grew up there.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby flyingpanda » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:35 am

nealric wrote:
This is true even absent strong ties to the area? I've been entertaining thoughts of trying to head to Texas after NYU, and am surprised to hear the opinion that CCN would beat out UT.


Without ties to the area, you are probably DOA in Texas. I should have qualified. That said, ties need not be that you grew up there (but it certainly helps). I tend to assume most people who are interested in Texas grew up there.


Is going to school in the region (not the city) enough? Like if I wanted Atlanta, but have no ties to the south, is UVA good enough or am I SOL?

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baconpuffs
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby baconpuffs » Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:59 pm

flyingpanda wrote:Is going to school in the region (not the city) enough? Like if I wanted Atlanta, but have no ties to the south, is UVA good enough or am I SOL?
I think I could probably answer this for you, from previous responses... since UVA is T14 and Atlanta != Texas, it's probably better than any regional school (Emory/UGA) anyway, so you should be fine.

FWIW, though, UVA is absolutely not in the South. At least, not in the Georgia/Deep South sense.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:22 pm

edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby Duralex » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:32 pm

keg411 wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:Houston/Dallas/Chicago I don't think are second tier markets.


Chicago is a primary market (NY/DC/Chi). Houston and Dallas (and all of the other large markets after the "big 3" are secondary including LA/SF.


California, taken as a whole, is the largest legal market in the United States (in fact, that claim is regularly made for SoCal alone.) You can attempt to qualify that by some measurement of biglaw presence, but the above is too cut and dried (especially by lumping LA/SF in with others mentioned ITT.)
Last edited by Duralex on Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby flyingpanda » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:47 pm

thesealocust wrote:
baconpuffs wrote:
flyingpanda wrote:Is going to school in the region (not the city) enough? Like if I wanted Atlanta, but have no ties to the south, is UVA good enough or am I SOL?
I think I could probably answer this for you, from previous responses... since UVA is T14 and Atlanta != Texas, it's probably better than any regional school (Emory/UGA) anyway, so you should be fine.

FWIW, though, UVA is absolutely not in the South. At least, not in the Georgia/Deep South sense.


UVA has a much more southern feel to it than most points north, draws a lot of its student body from those with southern roots, and has amazing placement in southern law firms and courts. It's also south of what people refer to as the north, for what it's worth.


I'm from CA, so I'm no expert on the South, but UVA definitely felt Southern to me when I visited. In any case, I'm not set on Atlanta or anything, I basically just want to keep my options as wide as possible at this point.

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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:00 pm

edit: n/m
Last edited by thesealocust on Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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x47point6
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Re: Biglaw opportunities outside NYC/DC/LA? Specifically Philly?

Postby x47point6 » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:01 pm

I've definitely heard a lot of anecdotal talk in support of the idea that Temple/Villanova > Penn for the Philly market. You can refer to this debate here regarding my own trilemma: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=112174




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