T-14 Christian Environment

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DanInALionsDen
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby DanInALionsDen » Sun May 30, 2010 6:21 pm

Mr. Pablo wrote:
This is the thing that I don't understand. Not that the OP is decidedly in this camp, but why do Christians feel so persecuted in the USA? They are an overwhelming majority of the citizens, politicians bend over backwards for them, and their voice as a whole determines a lot of public policy. Why is it that there is an oppression complex amongst the majority?


As long as there is any semblance of a division between church and state, fundamentalists will feel persecuted in America, even while we have the most integrated church and state in the Western world.

On a more theological level, Christianity teaches Christians that they will be persecuted for their beliefs, so it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Christians feel persecuted because the bible (infallible by the fundamentalist dogma) tells them that they are persecuted.

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romothesavior
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby romothesavior » Sun May 30, 2010 6:23 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
Mr. Pablo wrote:
This is the thing that I don't understand. Not that the OP is decidedly in this camp, but why do Christians feel so persecuted in the USA? They are an overwhelming majority of the citizens, politicians bend over backwards for them, and their voice as a whole determines a lot of public policy. Why is it that there is an oppression complex amongst the majority?


As long as their is any semblance of a division between church and state, fundamentalists will feel persecuted in America, even while we have the most integrated church and state in the Western world.

On a more theological level, Christianity teaches Christians that they will be persecuted for their beliefs, so it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Christians feel persecuted because the bible (infallible by the fundamentalist dogma) tells them that they are persecuted.


I'm trying my best not to derail this thread (although I really want to) out of respect for the OP and her views, but this is a great point that I've never considered before.

DanInALionsDen
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby DanInALionsDen » Sun May 30, 2010 6:24 pm

romothesavior wrote:
DanInALionsDen wrote:
Mr. Pablo wrote:
This is the thing that I don't understand. Not that the OP is decidedly in this camp, but why do Christians feel so persecuted in the USA? They are an overwhelming majority of the citizens, politicians bend over backwards for them, and their voice as a whole determines a lot of public policy. Why is it that there is an oppression complex amongst the majority?


As long as their is any semblance of a division between church and state, fundamentalists will feel persecuted in America, even while we have the most integrated church and state in the Western world.

On a more theological level, Christianity teaches Christians that they will be persecuted for their beliefs, so it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Christians feel persecuted because the bible (infallible by the fundamentalist dogma) tells them that they are persecuted.


I'm trying my best not to derail this thread (although I really want to) out of respect for the OP and her views, but this is a great point that I've never considered before.


Marred as it is by my stupid their/there grammatical error. Three weeks out of undergrad and it all goes to shit.

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20121109
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby 20121109 » Sun May 30, 2010 6:26 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
Mr. Pablo wrote:
This is the thing that I don't understand. Not that the OP is decidedly in this camp, but why do Christians feel so persecuted in the USA? They are an overwhelming majority of the citizens, politicians bend over backwards for them, and their voice as a whole determines a lot of public policy. Why is it that there is an oppression complex amongst the majority?


As long as there is any semblance of a division between church and state, fundamentalists will feel persecuted in America, even while we have the most integrated church and state in the Western world.

On a more theological level, Christianity teaches Christians that they will be persecuted for their beliefs, so it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Christians feel persecuted because the bible (infallible by the fundamentalist dogma) tells them that they are persecuted.


Very true. The Beatitudes in Matthew 5:10 states this quite clearly.

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A'nold
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby A'nold » Sun May 30, 2010 6:26 pm

Whoa, hold on guys, and I'm talking to both sides here.

1. To say that there is not an anti-Christian environment in most any colleges across the country is absurd. Professors continuously mock Christians in almost every class. Those that are not Christian would not understand b/c they either think it is funny and forget about it 2 seconds later or they don't even notice it b/c it doesn't concern them.

2. OP is either a flame or has lived her life under a rock. True Christians (and I'm not claiming that I am a good example of one necessarily) seek to live in the world but try not to be of the world. Boohoo that some won't share your beliefs. Open your eyes, not everyone believes what you believe and guess what? They have their own reasons that are often times pretty dang good. Christians are not supposed to be judgmental yet are the most judgmental people I've ever met. You want others not to judge Christians, period, but you can sit back and judge others all day long. Not cool, and not what Jesus taught. Fundamentalist Christians make me physically ill, and I am a Christian and it is the most important thing in my life.

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philosoraptor
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby philosoraptor » Sun May 30, 2010 6:27 pm

Mr. Pablo wrote:This is the thing that I don't understand. Not that the OP is decidedly in this camp, but why do Christians feel so persecuted in the USA? They are an overwhelming majority of the citizens, politicians bend over backwards for them, and their voice as a whole determines a lot of public policy. Why is it that there is an oppression complex amongst the majority?
I'd imagine the "oppression complex" is a little more justified in an academic setting.

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AngryAvocado
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby AngryAvocado » Sun May 30, 2010 6:30 pm

Mr. Pablo wrote:
This is the thing that I don't understand. Not that the OP is decidedly in this camp, but why do Christians feel so persecuted in the USA? They are an overwhelming majority of the citizens, politicians bend over backwards for them, and their voice as a whole determines a lot of public policy. Why is it that there is an oppression complex amongst the majority?


+10^7712. I can tell you firsthand that the "oppression complex" is definitely something cultivated by many Christian (especially Protestant) churches and schools. It's also strongest in the parts of the country (like the Bible Belt) where Christianity dominates--making why people actually buy into it all the more perplexing.

miamiman
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby miamiman » Sun May 30, 2010 6:34 pm

UPDATE:

Cardozo School of Law NOT a traditionally christian school.

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romothesavior
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby romothesavior » Sun May 30, 2010 6:37 pm

philosoraptor wrote:
Mr. Pablo wrote:This is the thing that I don't understand. Not that the OP is decidedly in this camp, but why do Christians feel so persecuted in the USA? They are an overwhelming majority of the citizens, politicians bend over backwards for them, and their voice as a whole determines a lot of public policy. Why is it that there is an oppression complex amongst the majority?
I'd imagine the "oppression complex" is a little more justified in an academic setting.


Somewhat. But if I were a professor and a dominant worldview in Western society was skeptical of the Big Bang, evolution, global warming, the age of the Earth, etc., I think it would be hard to treat their views with respect in the classroom. As a philosophy major, I can tell you there are many times when people say things in class that are impossible not to snicker at or roll your eyes at. Stupidity hiding behind religious views is still stupidity.

Fundamentalist Christians (and even the majority of mainline Christians) are the antithesis of intellectual integrity, as they reject basic science and reason because they don't jive with their worldview. Of course academics are going to take issue with that.

Anyways, let's get this back on track. I don't want to be held responsible for trolling this thread.

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A'nold
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby A'nold » Sun May 30, 2010 6:39 pm

romothesavior wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:
Mr. Pablo wrote:This is the thing that I don't understand. Not that the OP is decidedly in this camp, but why do Christians feel so persecuted in the USA? They are an overwhelming majority of the citizens, politicians bend over backwards for them, and their voice as a whole determines a lot of public policy. Why is it that there is an oppression complex amongst the majority?
I'd imagine the "oppression complex" is a little more justified in an academic setting.


Somewhat. But if I were a professor and a dominant worldview in Western society was skeptical of the Big Bang, evolution, global warming, the age of the Earth, etc., I think it would be hard to treat their views with respect in the classroom. As a philosophy major, I can tell you there are many times when people say things in class that are impossible not to snicker at or roll your eyes at. Stupidity hiding behind religious views is still stupidity.

Fundamentalist Christians (and even the majority of mainline Christians) are the antithesis of intellectual integrity, as they reject basic science and reason because they don't jive with their worldview. Of course academics are going to take issue with that.

Anyways, let's get this back on track. I don't want to be held responsible for trolling this thread.


Yes and no. Science and Christianity can co-exist, people on both sides just don't like to consider that.

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James Bond
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby James Bond » Sun May 30, 2010 6:45 pm

A'nold wrote:Yes and no. Science and Christianity can co-exist, people on both sides just don't like to consider that.


That's because for that to make any sense at all you have to take a very non-literal approach to the bible, and fundamentalists take perhaps the MOST literal interpretation of the bible.

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A'nold
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby A'nold » Sun May 30, 2010 6:52 pm

James Bond wrote:
A'nold wrote:Yes and no. Science and Christianity can co-exist, people on both sides just don't like to consider that.


That's because for that to make any sense at all you have to take a very non-literal approach to the bible, and fundamentalists take perhaps the MOST literal interpretation of the bible.


It's funny how stupid and just plain.........well stupid some of these people are. My wife is a biblical studies major. We have had talks where we both just shake our heads. For example, some of the things that people argue over, such as certain timeframes, actually don't mean what people think they mean. In Hebrew there are certain sayings that don't translate perfectly into english yet fundies take them 100% seriously. I just want to stab myself in the eye when I hear these kinds of things.

06132010
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby 06132010 » Sun May 30, 2010 6:57 pm

s0ph1e2007 wrote:It's also true that some schools have a much stronger anti-christian atmosphere than others and I would like to avoid that because my faith is the most important thing in my life. If I pursue law it will be to glorify God. If you're not Christian, I understand that won't make sense to you, but please be respectful of my view.


I don't know if it's just people I associate with, but Columbia feels pretty anti-Christian/anti-organized religion.

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philosoraptor
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby philosoraptor » Sun May 30, 2010 7:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:Somewhat. But if I were a professor and a dominant worldview in Western society was skeptical of the Big Bang, evolution, global warming, the age of the Earth, etc., I think it would be hard to treat their views with respect in the classroom. As a philosophy major, I can tell you there are many times when people say things in class that are impossible not to snicker at or roll your eyes at. Stupidity hiding behind religious views is still stupidity.

Fundamentalist Christians (and even the majority of mainline Christians) are the antithesis of intellectual integrity, as they reject basic science and reason because they don't jive with their worldview. Of course academics are going to take issue with that.
I respect you, romo, but this is the kind of overly general, condescending attitude that drives Christians' (fundamentalist and otherwise) perception that they're being marginalized in the academy. Far too many students and professors take the fashionable stance of "Oh, you're a Christian? Clearly you lack basic reasoning skills and intellectual integrity."

I wish the right-wing, theocratic crazies would shut up just as much as you do, but most Christians I know don't share the dangerous ideas propagated by the dumbest and loudest ones. I liken what you're saying to a Christian going around telling people they're going to hell. Both are annoying and unhelpful.

sluguy14
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby sluguy14 » Sun May 30, 2010 7:07 pm

philosoraptor wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Somewhat. But if I were a professor and a dominant worldview in Western society was skeptical of the Big Bang, evolution, global warming, the age of the Earth, etc., I think it would be hard to treat their views with respect in the classroom. As a philosophy major, I can tell you there are many times when people say things in class that are impossible not to snicker at or roll your eyes at. Stupidity hiding behind religious views is still stupidity.

Fundamentalist Christians (and even the majority of mainline Christians) are the antithesis of intellectual integrity, as they reject basic science and reason because they don't jive with their worldview. Of course academics are going to take issue with that.
I respect you, romo, but this is the kind of overly general, condescending attitude that drives Christians' (fundamentalist and otherwise) perception that they're being marginalized in the academy. Far too many students and professors take the fashionable stance of "Oh, you're a Christian? Clearly you lack basic reasoning skills and intellectual integrity."

I wish the right-wing, theocratic crazies would shut up just as much as you do, but most Christians I know don't share the dangerous ideas propagated by the dumbest and loudest ones. I liken what you're saying to a Christian going around telling people they're going to hell. Both are annoying and unhelpful.


This. I find it incredibly annoying when Christians attempt to impose their religion and/or values on others, but I find it equally annoying when those not of faith take a condescending, holier-than-thou (haha) approach to Christians and religion. In my experience, neither of these groups has done sufficient research, thought, and reasoning to justify their attitude.

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romothesavior
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby romothesavior » Sun May 30, 2010 7:17 pm

sluguy14 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Somewhat. But if I were a professor and a dominant worldview in Western society was skeptical of the Big Bang, evolution, global warming, the age of the Earth, etc., I think it would be hard to treat their views with respect in the classroom. As a philosophy major, I can tell you there are many times when people say things in class that are impossible not to snicker at or roll your eyes at. Stupidity hiding behind religious views is still stupidity.

Fundamentalist Christians (and even the majority of mainline Christians) are the antithesis of intellectual integrity, as they reject basic science and reason because they don't jive with their worldview. Of course academics are going to take issue with that.
I respect you, romo, but this is the kind of overly general, condescending attitude that drives Christians' (fundamentalist and otherwise) perception that they're being marginalized in the academy. Far too many students and professors take the fashionable stance of "Oh, you're a Christian? Clearly you lack basic reasoning skills and intellectual integrity."

I wish the right-wing, theocratic crazies would shut up just as much as you do, but most Christians I know don't share the dangerous ideas propagated by the dumbest and loudest ones. I liken what you're saying to a Christian going around telling people they're going to hell. Both are annoying and unhelpful.


This. I find it incredibly annoying when Christians attempt to impose their religion and/or values on others, but I find it equally annoying when those not of faith take a condescending, holier-than-thou (haha) approach to Christians and religion. In my experience, neither of these groups has done sufficient research, thought, and reasoning to justify their attitude.


I didn't want to turn the thread into a religious debate, and I had hoped to slink quietly out of this thread, but I wanted to respond to this.

Dangerous and absurd are not the same thing. Even if they aren't propagating dangerous ideas, their beliefs could still be silly beliefs. For example, a good friend of mine is a pre-med biology major. She is incredibly bright... a straight A-student in one of the toughest majors at our school. Yet she doesn't believe in evolution. She studies this stuff 7 days a week and still doesn't believe it... not for any scientific or evidentiary reasons, but simply because her faith doesn't permit it.

Her view isn't dangerous, and she isn't your right-wing theocratic crazy that you speak of, but her worldview is still anti-intellectual. She rejects the plain and indisputable findings of over a century of scientific inquiry. She admits that everything she has learned points her to the conclusion that evolution is valid, but she still rejects the theory because her dogma rejects it. To me, that is antithetical to intellectual integrity, and as Thomas Jefferson once said, "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions." So I really cannot blame professors for being hostile towards people like my friend here, because her views are flat out retarded. Once again, stupidity rooted in religion is still stupidity... the religious should not get a free pass for rejecting things like evolution simply because they are religious.

OKAY! :D Now seriously guys... I'm gonna drop it and hopefully this thread hijack that we are all a part of will cease. If you want to debate religion, start a thread in the lounge and I will happily join you. Or PM me and we can discuss it further. I'm sorry this thread got out of hand, and I apologize for my part in it. Let's try to keep responses within the scope of the OP.

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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby Bankhead » Sun May 30, 2010 7:21 pm

The responses in this thread are a pretty good example of why some Christians feel persecuted in this country...

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sun May 30, 2010 7:21 pm

A'nold wrote:
James Bond wrote:
A'nold wrote:Yes and no. Science and Christianity can co-exist, people on both sides just don't like to consider that.


That's because for that to make any sense at all you have to take a very non-literal approach to the bible, and fundamentalists take perhaps the MOST literal interpretation of the bible.


It's funny how stupid and just plain.........well stupid some of these people are. My wife is a biblical studies major. We have had talks where we both just shake our heads. For example, some of the things that people argue over, such as certain timeframes, actually don't mean what people think they mean. In Hebrew there are certain sayings that don't translate perfectly into english yet fundies take them 100% seriously. I just want to stab myself in the eye when I hear these kinds of things.


This reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyOZRMIe768, William Lane Craig is probably one of the most respected apologists in the world today.

Calling the earth 20,000 years old is laughably stupid to both sides

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James Bond
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby James Bond » Sun May 30, 2010 7:22 pm

ITT Ron Burgundy finishes every hijack with a lecture on hijacking? :|

09042014
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby 09042014 » Sun May 30, 2010 7:32 pm

Bankhead wrote:The responses in this thread are a pretty good example of why some Christians feel persecuted in this country...


Persecuted by reality maybe. Being told you are stupid is being made fun of, not being persecuted.
Last edited by 09042014 on Sun May 30, 2010 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby bk1 » Sun May 30, 2010 7:33 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Bankhead wrote:The responses in this thread are a pretty good example of why some Christians feel persecuted in this country...


Persecuted by reality maybe.


+1

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PlugInBaby
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby PlugInBaby » Sun May 30, 2010 7:33 pm

Bankhead wrote:The responses in this thread are a pretty good example of why some Christians feel persecuted in this country...


I don't think its a matter of persecution of Christians more than it is a defensive response toward persecution perpentrated in the name of Christianity.

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romothesavior
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby romothesavior » Sun May 30, 2010 7:39 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Bankhead wrote:The responses in this thread are a pretty good example of why some Christians feel persecuted in this country...


Persecuted by reality maybe. Being told you are stupid is being made fun of, not being persecuted.


+Infinity...

It is quite peculiar that no one minds making fun of equally superstitious worldviews (voodoo, astrology, etc.), and we would not hesitate to make fun of stupidity if it wasn't religious. But these people seem to think that because people believe these things REALLY strongly and structure their worldview around these beliefs, we shouldn't be allowed to make fun of them.

Bankhead
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby Bankhead » Sun May 30, 2010 7:41 pm

I can't believe the rudeness -- these are people's religious beliefs.

I'm an atheist myself, but what the fuck guys.

Why do you feel the need to make fun of people's beliefs that are different from your own? You can't prove that you are right, and they are wrong. You're not that smart.
Last edited by Bankhead on Sun May 30, 2010 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DanInALionsDen
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Re: T-14 Christian Environment

Postby DanInALionsDen » Sun May 30, 2010 7:42 pm

Bankhead wrote:The responses in this thread are a pretty good example of why some Christians feel persecuted in this country...


Certainly, if you completely misdefine the word "persecution." I don't think any Christians have been banned from TLS for their views, nor in the broader American scope have the been silenced politically––quite the opposite.

The first amendment gives private citizens the right to offend the sensibilities of others, and disagreement or even mockery are not persecution. The Christian martyrs who were thrown to the lions (re: my username, though Daniel survived), or who were burned, crucified or slaughtered by gladiators were persecuted.




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