Patent Law Question

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cartercl
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Patent Law Question

Postby cartercl » Tue May 11, 2010 1:33 pm

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Last edited by cartercl on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ArthurEdens
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby ArthurEdens » Tue May 11, 2010 1:43 pm

1. Don't count on upper level science courses to boost your GPA.

2. Barely meeting the patent bar requirements doesn't mean that anyone would hire you to do patent work. The exception in this path would be if you had years and years of relevant work experience. Even PhDs can have a hard time finding patent work.

3. Why not do non-patent IP law (i.e. trademarks, etc.)?

cartercl
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby cartercl » Tue May 11, 2010 1:49 pm

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Last edited by cartercl on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thwalls
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby thwalls » Tue May 11, 2010 1:50 pm

FWIW I'm going to share with you what I know and my background. I'm taking the USPTO bar exam next tuesday, and at this moment I'm procrastinating from studying. I'm also attending Law school part-time in the fall and wanted to get the exam out of the way before I start school.

Last month I finished my PhD in Medicinal Organic Chemistry from UVA and I'm looking to go for the IP/FDA law route after law school.

I'll tell you what an attorney from a big firm in DC told me. Law firms want prosecution IP lawyers that have PhDs for the pure sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and they'll take litigators in IP law who have BA's and BS's. If you take a couple of courses in physics or chemistry it's not going to help you all that much because you're still going to have to compete for jobs with guys like me.

I don't want to dissuade you if you have the time to do it and it won't overly affect your GPA. The patent bar is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and it certainly can't hurt to get it, but if you really want to do IP law and you want to write patent specifications and claims you're not going to have much of a shot just because you won't have the science background. Some people say that it's not entirely true that you need to have an advanced degree or that the only thing that matters is the law school you go to, but lets see you with 1 or 2 classes in organic chemistry draw up a Markush group, using the proper language in the spec, on a novel series of organic analogs that are part of a homologous series in the treatment of X cancer.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a tough road to hoe. Best of luck to you in any decision you make. If this is what you truly want to do, I'm sure you'll find success if you're committed, but there is no silver bullet.

cartercl
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby cartercl » Tue May 11, 2010 2:10 pm

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Last edited by cartercl on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

letsgo
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby letsgo » Tue May 11, 2010 2:12 pm

thwalls wrote:FWIW I'm going to share with you what I know and my background. I'm taking the USPTO bar exam next tuesday, and at this moment I'm procrastinating from studying. I'm also attending Law school part-time in the fall and wanted to get the exam out of the way before I start school.

Last month I finished my PhD in Medicinal Organic Chemistry from UVA and I'm looking to go for the IP/FDA law route after law school.

I'll tell you what an attorney from a big firm in DC told me. Law firms want prosecution IP lawyers that have PhDs for the pure sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and they'll take litigators in IP law who have BA's and BS's. If you take a couple of courses in physics or chemistry it's not going to help you all that much because you're still going to have to compete for jobs with guys like me.

I don't want to dissuade you if you have the time to do it and it won't overly affect your GPA. The patent bar is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and it certainly can't hurt to get it, but if you really want to do IP law and you want to write patent specifications and claims you're not going to have much of a shot just because you won't have the science background. Some people say that it's not entirely true that you need to have an advanced degree or that the only thing that matters is the law school you go to, but lets see you with 1 or 2 classes in organic chemistry draw up a Markush group, using the proper language in the spec, on a novel series of organic analogs that are part of a homologous series in the treatment of X cancer.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a tough road to hoe. Best of luck to you in any decision you make. If this is what you truly want to do, I'm sure you'll find success if you're committed, but there is no silver bullet.


How easy will it be for someone with a science background way back in college to break into IP Litigation?

thwalls
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby thwalls » Tue May 11, 2010 2:14 pm

cartercl wrote:
thwalls wrote:FWIW I'm going to share with you what I know and my background. I'm taking the USPTO bar exam next tuesday, and at this moment I'm procrastinating from studying. I'm also attending Law school part-time in the fall and wanted to get the exam out of the way before I start school.

Last month I finished my PhD in Medicinal Organic Chemistry from UVA and I'm looking to go for the IP/FDA law route after law school.

I'll tell you what an attorney from a big firm in DC told me. Law firms want prosecution IP lawyers that have PhDs for the pure sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and they'll take litigators in IP law who have BA's and BS's. If you take a couple of courses in physics or chemistry it's not going to help you all that much because you're still going to have to compete for jobs with guys like me.

I don't want to dissuade you if you have the time to do it and it won't overly affect your GPA. The patent bar is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and it certainly can't hurt to get it, but if you really want to do IP law and you want to write patent specifications and claims you're not going to have much of a shot just because you won't have the science background. Some people say that it's not entirely true that you need to have an advanced degree or that the only thing that matters is the law school you go to, but lets see you with 1 or 2 classes in organic chemistry draw up a Markush group, using the proper language in the spec, on a novel series of organic analogs that are part of a homologous series in the treatment of X cancer.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a tough road to hoe. Best of luck to you in any decision you make. If this is what you truly want to do, I'm sure you'll find success if you're committed, but there is no silver bullet.


Thanks a lot. I appreciate the input. You definitely told me some things that I had no idea about. But for clarification, are you saying that IP firms will take IP litigators with B.S.'s and B.A.'s only in the sciences, or in any field? Are you saying that if I do go this route I should make sure I go all the way with it?


You still have to have a science background, but they look to IP lawyers who've passed the patent bar with less technical experience for their litigation practices. So you still have to meet the requirements to sit the patent bar. I'm saying to be sure that this is something that you really want to do because you're going to have to convince a future employer that you were so interested in patent law that you took ~30 credit hours of science courses because you were interested in the science AND IP law. Now if that's the case, if that's what you really want to do, then go for it and don't let anything stop you.

thwalls
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby thwalls » Tue May 11, 2010 2:19 pm

letsgo wrote:
thwalls wrote:FWIW I'm going to share with you what I know and my background. I'm taking the USPTO bar exam next tuesday, and at this moment I'm procrastinating from studying. I'm also attending Law school part-time in the fall and wanted to get the exam out of the way before I start school.

Last month I finished my PhD in Medicinal Organic Chemistry from UVA and I'm looking to go for the IP/FDA law route after law school.

I'll tell you what an attorney from a big firm in DC told me. Law firms want prosecution IP lawyers that have PhDs for the pure sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and they'll take litigators in IP law who have BA's and BS's. If you take a couple of courses in physics or chemistry it's not going to help you all that much because you're still going to have to compete for jobs with guys like me.

I don't want to dissuade you if you have the time to do it and it won't overly affect your GPA. The patent bar is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and it certainly can't hurt to get it, but if you really want to do IP law and you want to write patent specifications and claims you're not going to have much of a shot just because you won't have the science background. Some people say that it's not entirely true that you need to have an advanced degree or that the only thing that matters is the law school you go to, but lets see you with 1 or 2 classes in organic chemistry draw up a Markush group, using the proper language in the spec, on a novel series of organic analogs that are part of a homologous series in the treatment of X cancer.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a tough road to hoe. Best of luck to you in any decision you make. If this is what you truly want to do, I'm sure you'll find success if you're committed, but there is no silver bullet.


How easy will it be for someone with a science background way back in college to break into IP Litigation?


I'm not an IP lawyer just yet so take what I say with a grain of salt. For IP law you're helping to translate someones intellectual property into law so that they can exploit that idea. If you don't have a technical background that can help you do that, you're going to make your client uncomfortable. There's a reason why law firms list their IP attorneys with not only their education background, but also what technical papers they've published related to their field. They're trying to sell them to prospective clients.

So if you have a degree in a science or engineering, it's not impossible to sit the patent bar exam, the only question will be whether that experience will be marketable to prospective employers. Once again, you've got compete with MSs and PhDs for the same jobs.

letsgo
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby letsgo » Tue May 11, 2010 2:28 pm

thwalls wrote:
letsgo wrote:
thwalls wrote:FWIW I'm going to share with you what I know and my background. I'm taking the USPTO bar exam next tuesday, and at this moment I'm procrastinating from studying. I'm also attending Law school part-time in the fall and wanted to get the exam out of the way before I start school.

Last month I finished my PhD in Medicinal Organic Chemistry from UVA and I'm looking to go for the IP/FDA law route after law school.

I'll tell you what an attorney from a big firm in DC told me. Law firms want prosecution IP lawyers that have PhDs for the pure sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and they'll take litigators in IP law who have BA's and BS's. If you take a couple of courses in physics or chemistry it's not going to help you all that much because you're still going to have to compete for jobs with guys like me.

I don't want to dissuade you if you have the time to do it and it won't overly affect your GPA. The patent bar is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and it certainly can't hurt to get it, but if you really want to do IP law and you want to write patent specifications and claims you're not going to have much of a shot just because you won't have the science background. Some people say that it's not entirely true that you need to have an advanced degree or that the only thing that matters is the law school you go to, but lets see you with 1 or 2 classes in organic chemistry draw up a Markush group, using the proper language in the spec, on a novel series of organic analogs that are part of a homologous series in the treatment of X cancer.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a tough road to hoe. Best of luck to you in any decision you make. If this is what you truly want to do, I'm sure you'll find success if you're committed, but there is no silver bullet.


How easy will it be for someone with a science background way back in college to break into IP Litigation?


I'm not an IP lawyer just yet so take what I say with a grain of salt. For IP law you're helping to translate someones intellectual property into law so that they can exploit that idea. If you don't have a technical background that can help you do that, you're going to make your client uncomfortable. There's a reason why law firms list their IP attorneys with not only their education background, but also what technical papers they've published related to their field. They're trying to sell them to prospective clients.

So if you have a degree in a science or engineering, it's not impossible to sit the patent bar exam, the only question will be whether that experience will be marketable to prospective employers. Once again, you've got compete with MSs and PhDs for the same jobs.


I think it is a little different for Litigation though.

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merichard87
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby merichard87 » Tue May 11, 2010 2:32 pm

OP: If you are truly interested in Patents go back and get a degree in the science/engineering field of your choice. If not, you can still work in Copyrights or Trademarks without a science background.

What is you UG degree in and why are interested in IP?

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patentThis
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby patentThis » Tue May 11, 2010 2:43 pm

You can be in patent litigation without sitting for the patent bar. Only prosecution requires registration with the USPTO.

thwalls
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby thwalls » Tue May 11, 2010 2:53 pm

patentThis wrote:You can be in patent litigation without sitting for the patent bar. Only prosecution requires registration with the USPTO.


See I knew I was full of crap about some things :D

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merichard87
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby merichard87 » Tue May 11, 2010 2:56 pm

patentThis wrote:You can be in patent litigation without sitting for the patent bar. Only prosecution requires registration with the USPTO.


But don't they still want to see a science/engineering background?

cartercl
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby cartercl » Tue May 11, 2010 3:46 pm

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Last edited by cartercl on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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merichard87
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby merichard87 » Tue May 11, 2010 10:17 pm

OP: if you are going to pursue programming which I assume you mean to be a Computer Science degree please make sure the degree is accredited. USPTO does not recognize all Computer Science degrees as eligible. A Computer Engineering degree may be more useful. Depending on the program you will still get the programming courses you enjoy.

And I'm pretty sure firms feed their IP attorneys the patents that are closest to their backgrounds but I'm not absolutely certain of this.

09042014
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 11, 2010 10:42 pm

cartercl wrote:
My UG degree is in Criminal Justice. I want to do patent law because I truly do have a passion for the sciences, but somehow strayed from this throughout college.


So go get a bachelors in a science you want to study and then go to grad school. Patent law isn't about science.

Leeroy Jenkins
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby Leeroy Jenkins » Tue May 11, 2010 11:01 pm

If I were you I'd choose another career. Your GPA sucks, you don't have a degree, and nobody hires people who are Cat. B to do patent pros

icydash
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby icydash » Tue May 11, 2010 11:43 pm

Couple of things:
(1) someone already said this, but it's true: you don't need a science background to do copyrights, trademarks, and patent litigation. Only for patent prosecution do you need to pass the patent bar, which requires a hard science background.

(2) This is not fact, just opinion, but computer programming won't get you far in the world of patent law because most engineering majors (and some physics majors) can program/understand code enough to handle that work, as well as any engineering work that comes along. So most likely, jobs where code is in question (and a wide array of other subject matter) can be handled by engineers, so your job will go to them. It is my understanding that comp sci kids are just not in demand in the IP world.

(3) It sounds like your passion is for science and programming, not law. Why not go get a BS or ScM in Comp Sci, work for google/microsoft, and call it a day?

EDIT: oh oh i forgot one other thing...I'm pretty sure code is copyrighted, not patented -- so if you want to work with code all day, you can do that now without going to any more school / passing the patent bar.
Last edited by icydash on Tue May 11, 2010 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

icydash
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby icydash » Tue May 11, 2010 11:47 pm

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cartercl
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby cartercl » Wed May 12, 2010 3:00 pm

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Last edited by cartercl on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

icydash
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby icydash » Wed May 12, 2010 3:15 pm

cartercl wrote:Well, I do have a passion for the law; it just so happens that I have a passion for both. I think I've gotten the advice that I need here though. I mistakenly thought that I could possibly have a career in patent law simply by getting a degree in the field. That's all been cleared up now though. If I do still choose to get the comp. science degree it will be much more about self-fulfillment, not about patent law. Thanks again for the advice everyone.

Well you can do patent law by getting a degree in the field. But the degree has to be a BS or MSc, and you'd be better off with an engineering than computer science. And honestly, all that is just if you want to do prosecution. You could do IP law now with your current qualifications (trademarks, copyrights, and patent litigation ... just not prosecution).

cartercl
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby cartercl » Wed May 12, 2010 3:58 pm

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Last edited by cartercl on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thegor1987
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Re: Patent Law Question

Postby thegor1987 » Sun May 16, 2010 9:59 pm

If you've always tried your best in college your GPA will likely stay the same, why would it go up with harder classes? You will also be doing a lot more work. Majors and classes in physics, chemistry, biology and engineering are extremely time consuming compared to criminal justice, in addition you have to use your brain a lot when you study.

But despite the opinion on here, I think you will be rewarded even if you only fulfill the minimum Cat B science requirements to sit for the pat bar. If you already got a scholly for a T100, with a patbar, and a higher LSAT I think your goal of T30 will be realized next year. But do not underestimate the difficulty of the classes. Also, you will likely not be able to complete 30 chemistry credits without calculus and physics, as the higher level courses have pre-reqs. So if you are re-applying next year you need to talk to an advisor now and take summer classes.

Good luck!

perry24
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 2:31 am

Re: Patent Law Question

Postby perry24 » Thu May 20, 2010 2:42 am

thwalls wrote:
letsgo wrote:
thwalls wrote:FWIW I'm going to share with you what I know and my background. I'm taking the USPTO bar exam next tuesday, and at this moment I'm procrastinating from studying. I'm also attending Law school part-time in the fall and wanted to get the exam out of the way before I start school.

Last month I finished my PhD in Medicinal Organic Chemistry from UVA and I'm looking to go for the IP/FDA law route after law school.

I'll tell you what an attorney from a big firm in DC told me. Law firms want prosecution IP lawyers that have PhDs for the pure sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and they'll take litigators in IP law who have BA's and BS's. If you take a couple of courses in physics or chemistry it's not going to help you all that much because you're still going to have to compete for jobs with guys like me.

I don't want to dissuade you if you have the time to do it and it won't overly affect your GPA. The patent bar is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and it certainly can't hurt to get it, but if you really want to do IP law and you want to write patent specifications and claims you're not going to have much of a shot just because you won't have the science background. Some people say that it's not entirely true that you need to have an advanced degree or that the only thing that matters is the law school you go to, but lets see you with 1 or 2 classes in organic chemistry draw up a Markush group, using the proper language in the spec, on a novel series of organic analogs that are part of a homologous series in the treatment of X cancer.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a tough road to hoe. Best of luck to you in any decision you make. If this is what you truly want to do, I'm sure you'll find success if you're committed, but there is no silver bullet.


How easy will it be for someone with a science background way back in college to break into IP Litigation?


I'm not an IP lawyer just yet so take what I say with a grain of salt. For IP law you're helping to translate someones intellectual property into law so that they can exploit that idea. If you don't have a technical background that can help you do that, you're going to make your client uncomfortable. There's a reason why law firms list their IP attorneys with not only their education background, but also what technical papers they've published related to their field. They're trying to sell them to prospective clients.



So just out of curiosity, if you have a Master's/PhD in say, EE, then why would you be practicing patent law? Aren't non-law PhD prospects better? I've also heard that the quality of life of PhDs is better than quality of life of lawyers.

So if you have a degree in a science or engineering, it's not impossible to sit the patent bar exam, the only question will be whether that experience will be marketable to prospective employers. Once again, you've got compete with MSs and PhDs for the same jobs.

icydash
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Patent Law Question

Postby icydash » Thu May 20, 2010 4:20 am

perry24 wrote:
thwalls wrote:
letsgo wrote:
thwalls wrote:FWIW I'm going to share with you what I know and my background. I'm taking the USPTO bar exam next tuesday, and at this moment I'm procrastinating from studying. I'm also attending Law school part-time in the fall and wanted to get the exam out of the way before I start school.

Last month I finished my PhD in Medicinal Organic Chemistry from UVA and I'm looking to go for the IP/FDA law route after law school.

I'll tell you what an attorney from a big firm in DC told me. Law firms want prosecution IP lawyers that have PhDs for the pure sciences (Biology, Chemistry, Physics) and they'll take litigators in IP law who have BA's and BS's. If you take a couple of courses in physics or chemistry it's not going to help you all that much because you're still going to have to compete for jobs with guys like me.

I don't want to dissuade you if you have the time to do it and it won't overly affect your GPA. The patent bar is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things and it certainly can't hurt to get it, but if you really want to do IP law and you want to write patent specifications and claims you're not going to have much of a shot just because you won't have the science background. Some people say that it's not entirely true that you need to have an advanced degree or that the only thing that matters is the law school you go to, but lets see you with 1 or 2 classes in organic chemistry draw up a Markush group, using the proper language in the spec, on a novel series of organic analogs that are part of a homologous series in the treatment of X cancer.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's a tough road to hoe. Best of luck to you in any decision you make. If this is what you truly want to do, I'm sure you'll find success if you're committed, but there is no silver bullet.


How easy will it be for someone with a science background way back in college to break into IP Litigation?


I'm not an IP lawyer just yet so take what I say with a grain of salt. For IP law you're helping to translate someones intellectual property into law so that they can exploit that idea. If you don't have a technical background that can help you do that, you're going to make your client uncomfortable. There's a reason why law firms list their IP attorneys with not only their education background, but also what technical papers they've published related to their field. They're trying to sell them to prospective clients.



So just out of curiosity, if you have a Master's/PhD in say, EE, then why would you be practicing patent law? Aren't non-law PhD prospects better? I've also heard that the quality of life of PhDs is better than quality of life of lawyers.

So if you have a degree in a science or engineering, it's not impossible to sit the patent bar exam, the only question will be whether that experience will be marketable to prospective employers. Once again, you've got compete with MSs and PhDs for the same jobs.

It all depends on what you want to do. I got my ScM in EE and then realized I was sick of/hated engineering. I like doing it for my own little fun projects, but as a job it sucks hard. After some research, I found I had an interest in the law. I didn't want to waste my two engineering degrees though--hence IP law.

Also, I know for BS/ScMs, the QOL and job prospects aren't much better. It's really tough ITE to get a good engineering job. And engineering jobs (BS + ScM in EE = ~$70k/yr) on average pay way less than IP law (average of around $115k/yr in 2005), and can have just as ridiculous hours (depending on the job).




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