Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

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legalized
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby legalized » Wed May 12, 2010 6:07 pm

Danteshek wrote:
kalvano wrote:I was under the impression that the majority of people go in to private practice in firm of fairly small sizes.


Thats correct, at the bottom 190 law schools in the country. But this is TLS, so we like to perpetuate a belief that if law graduates don't get picked up by large firms, they will be flipping burgers at McDonald's.


This is what i need to know. If hiring prospects out there are dim for the cream of the crop and people aiming for cream of the crop type jobs only, why are we not hearing about the people in the middle with the $40k jobs? What has happened to small firms and their need for attorneys? Since they hired less to begin with and were in more diverse fields than corporate law, has their hiring remained stable?

Have they started trying to "social climb" with new recruits by going for unemployed T14 grads? Or are they still thinking they will stick with normal hiring practices because the T14 grads will leave them the second the economy shows signs of life?

I hear allllllll about what biglaw is doing but it is so hard to get a pulse on what is going on with every other type of law...

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Barolo
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby Barolo » Wed May 12, 2010 6:09 pm

Ok, typically NO.

However, I know some great lawyers out of Wayne State. IF you're willing to commit to Michigan for the rest of your life, you could surely do worse (cooley and udm come to mind).

But seriously, you can probably do better on the LSAT if you put in some time. If so, as a urm with a tech background, Michigan would probably be a possibility at around 163. Much better job prospects and fewer geographical constraints.

Danteshek
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby Danteshek » Wed May 12, 2010 6:25 pm

A partner at a small firm who went to a TTT is not going to ignore his alma mater. If anything, he'll be rather skeptical that a person from a fancy school is committed to small firm practice...

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Fast_Fingers
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby Fast_Fingers » Wed May 12, 2010 6:40 pm

Danteshek wrote:A partner at a small firm who went to a TTT is not going to ignore his alma mater. If anything, he'll be rather skeptical that a person from a fancy school is committed to small firm practice...


He's either skeptical that the quality of law education at a higher ranked school really differs that much from his own to be worth the difference in price and/or he's pimping out his school to the interns who are going to T1s.

/personal experience

yabbadabbado
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby yabbadabbado » Thu May 13, 2010 9:20 am

It's harder to find information about smaller firms because hiring doesn't operate like big firms or even like some government positions. Many smaller firms do not hire summer clerks or summer associates and do not hire pre-bar, period. People get these jobs by networking, being in the right place at the right time, or responding to advertisements and submitting resumes.

Small firms only hire when they need to and can afford to. Many of them have no need for a new law school graduate and no way to train one. It's not unusual for a small firm to go a few years without hiring anyone at all. For the places that do hire regularly, that usually means they have a lot of turnover, which is a red flag. Basically you are dealing with a place that is a low pay/long hours situation and a boss no one wants to work for.

There are some smaller and midsized firms out there that are trying to upgrade their image or get students from higher ranked schools instead of the local t2/3/4 students they usually get. How do I know this? These 40K per year jobs are starting to show up on my t14 school's job website. Some of them are even asking for specific class ranks, journal experience, etc.


legalized wrote:This is what i need to know. If hiring prospects out there are dim for the cream of the crop and people aiming for cream of the crop type jobs only, why are we not hearing about the people in the middle with the $40k jobs? What has happened to small firms and their need for attorneys? Since they hired less to begin with and were in more diverse fields than corporate law, has their hiring remained stable?

Have they started trying to "social climb" with new recruits by going for unemployed T14 grads? Or are they still thinking they will stick with normal hiring practices because the T14 grads will leave them the second the economy shows signs of life?

I hear allllllll about what biglaw is doing but it is so hard to get a pulse on what is going on with every other type of law...

Sias
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby Sias » Thu May 13, 2010 11:19 am

kalvano wrote:
Danteshek wrote:
kalvano wrote:I was under the impression that the majority of people go in to private practice in firm of fairly small sizes.


Thats correct, at the bottom 190 law schools in the country. But this is TLS, so we like to perpetuate a belief that if law graduates don't get picked up by large firms, they will be flipping burgers at McDonald's.



So what about the untold numbers of successful attorneys who never work for Biglaw firms?


If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, did it make a noise?

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kalvano
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby kalvano » Thu May 13, 2010 11:22 am

Sias wrote:If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, did it make a noise?



Yes.

AffirmativeOffense
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby AffirmativeOffense » Thu May 13, 2010 1:24 pm

State TTTs are cheap, but not always a good bet either. A lot of the job losses in the legal industry are structural and permanent rather than temporary (see the latest NYT article). A lot of the low level work that small firms and solos used to do has been made more efficient by websites, thresholds/tort reform, etc. There is a trend here. The legal market is stagnant at best; it's not a growth industry like health care or education. These cheap state TTTs and other TTTs you get a scholarship at are good values compared to other law schools, but they're teaching you a skill and giving you a credential that is losing value in today's economy. That is the problem with attending TTTs and even good law schools. They heyday is over. Analyze the cost of attending TTTs under the prism of the new market reality. Would you be better off going to law school for 3 years, or going back to grad school to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher? Choose wisely.
Last edited by AffirmativeOffense on Thu May 13, 2010 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

legalized
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby legalized » Thu May 13, 2010 1:25 pm

Somebody please tell:

The middle 50% of ls graduates, all tiers...where do they go over 50% of the time as the first job?

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pugalicious
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby pugalicious » Thu May 13, 2010 1:31 pm

AffirmativeOffense wrote:State TTTs are cheap, but not always a good bet either. A lot of the job losses in the legal industry are structural and permanent rather than temporary (see the latest NYT article). A lot of the low level work that small firms and solos used to do has been made more efficient by websites, etc. There is a trend here. The legal market is stagnant at best; it's not a growth industry like health care or education. These cheap state TTTs and other TTTs you get a scholarship at are good values compared to other law schools, but they're teaching you a skill and giving you a credential that is losing value in today's economy. That is the problem with attending TTTs and even good law schools. They heyday is over. Analyze the cost of attending TTTs under the prism of the new market reality. Would you be better off going to law school for 3 years, or going back to grad school to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher? Choose wisely.


You would NOT be better off going back to school to be a teacher. It is a horrible time to be an educator. I don't know where you heard that education is a "growth industry". Education only grows when tax money does: lower taxes = less education $ = not hiring teachers.

Also, and this is purely for the sake of argument, why assume that someone who wants to be a lawyer could ever be a nurse or doctor? I'm sure most people would rather get out their sewing kits and do it themselves than allow me to perform medical procedures on them (on account of the screaming and throwing up I would be doing :) ). Not that I'm going to a TTT, but...are these the options only because they're the "white collar trade school" jobs?

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philip.platt
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby philip.platt » Thu May 13, 2010 1:32 pm

Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Yes. Do what you are passionate about. If you want to go there . . . then go there already! ;)

TRUST ME . . . we do this all the time.
Last edited by philip.platt on Thu May 13, 2010 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pugalicious
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby pugalicious » Thu May 13, 2010 1:32 pm

legalized wrote:Somebody please tell:

The middle 50% of ls graduates, all tiers...where do they go over 50% of the time as the first job?


If it's me, I'm thinking Papas & Beer in Ensenada, Baja California. Maybe sell some turqoise jewelry in the Renaissance Faire.

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philip.platt
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby philip.platt » Thu May 13, 2010 1:36 pm

pugalicious wrote:
legalized wrote:Somebody please tell:

The middle 50% of ls graduates, all tiers...where do they go over 50% of the time as the first job?


If it's me, I'm thinking Papas & Beer in Ensenada, Baja California. Maybe sell some turqoise jewelry in the Renaissance Faire.


Do ittttt ;0

I went to Ensenada a few years ago. There was a week long party in Estero Beach. I went with my roommate at the time - Carter . . . and my other friend rocky - hahaha

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philip.platt
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby philip.platt » Thu May 13, 2010 1:37 pm

philip.platt wrote:
pugalicious wrote:
legalized wrote:Somebody please tell:

The middle 50% of ls graduates, all tiers...where do they go over 50% of the time as the first job?


If it's me, I'm thinking Papas & Beer in Ensenada, Baja California. Maybe sell some turqoise jewelry in the Renaissance Faire.


Do ittttt ;0

I went to Ensenada a few years ago. There was a week long party in Estero Beach. I went with my roommate at the time - Carter . . . and my other friend rocky - hahaha


They always go over "50% of the time as the first job"

have you seen the first job or mission impossible?



Legalized:

Two rules for you for litigation - - 1) Don't Play with Fire, you will get burned. 2) Don't ask loaded questions that you already know the answers to - - best - - info@blakedesigns.org
Last edited by philip.platt on Thu May 13, 2010 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

legalized
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby legalized » Thu May 13, 2010 1:38 pm

AffirmativeOffense wrote:State TTTs are cheap, but not always a good bet either. A lot of the job losses in the legal industry are structural and permanent rather than temporary (see the latest NYT article). A lot of the low level work that small firms and solos used to do has been made more efficient by websites, etc. There is a trend here. The legal market is stagnant at best; it's not a growth industry like health care or education. These cheap state TTTs and other TTTs you get a scholarship at are good values compared to other law schools, but they're teaching you a skill and giving you a credential that is losing value in today's economy. That is the problem with attending TTTs and even good law schools. They heyday is over. Analyze the cost of attending TTTs under the prism of the new market reality. Would you be better off going to law school for 3 years, or going back to grad school to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher? Choose wisely.


It takes a different skill set and interest set to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher than it does to be a lawyer.

Nurses also stand on their feet all day, work with a lot of bitchy petty females, and are looked down on significantly by the doctor, the senior nurses, and anyone not the patient who they are a blessing to. The work environment, from my previous research, involves a lot of petty bickering based on who is a certificate nurse, associate nurse, bachelor's nurse, master's nurse...they're all nurses to the patient and the doctor, but there is a lot of false superiority going on based on how long you studied before you took the NCLEX.

The associate's RN is suppose to be 2 years, but the prerequisites such as microbiology and anatomy and physiology I and II ensure that you spend at least 3 years getting a 2 year degree. So then you might as well go for the bachelor's nursing if you doing that.

It takes a certain calling to go through the hell it takes to become a doctor.

And everybody and their mother is a teacher because it's a guaranteed job unless the county you are in decides to cut back on the budget by cutting you...and from the declining state of public education I would say going into teaching just for a job is a terrible thing to do to those kids. Some of the people who switched majors to education after they realized the b.s. journalism degree or whatever wasn't going to get them a job don't even LIKE children! Why are these people training the minds of tomorrow?

Some people are assholes and have no bedside manner and should never be near an un-well person. Neither as a nurse nor as a doctor.

There are some things that people rather have a lawyer navigate the paperwork for rather than do it on their own. Immigration and family law are two bread and butter fields of law that are not full of awe and glitz like the law most of TLS is interested in, but they are ALWAYS there and will never go anywhere.

For URMs there are still not enough lawyers who look like them and people, from my observations, tend to go for a lawyer with the same background or similar when at all possible. Unless the existing options look incapable then they go for a Jewish lawyer (true words from a real person!) So law is a slowing field but it depends on what you want to do and what your existing connections are to the law. What I want to do with my degree is still possible even if every biglaw company folds and drops dead. Knowing that I don't have to panic as much.
Last edited by legalized on Thu May 13, 2010 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pugalicious
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby pugalicious » Thu May 13, 2010 1:39 pm

philip.platt wrote:
pugalicious wrote:
legalized wrote:Somebody please tell:

The middle 50% of ls graduates, all tiers...where do they go over 50% of the time as the first job?


If it's me, I'm thinking Papas & Beer in Ensenada, Baja California. Maybe sell some turqoise jewelry in the Renaissance Faire.


Do ittttt ;0

I went to Ensenada a few years ago. There was a week long party in Estero Beach. I went with my roommate at the time - Carter . . . and my other friend rocky - hahaha


Ironically, I think it's nearly impossible to get a job in Mexico as a US citizen. :) So I guess I will have to do well enough to get a real job!

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philip.platt
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby philip.platt » Thu May 13, 2010 1:41 pm

pugalicious wrote:
philip.platt wrote:
pugalicious wrote:
legalized wrote:Somebody please tell:

The middle 50% of ls graduates, all tiers...where do they go over 50% of the time as the first job?


If it's me, I'm thinking Papas & Beer in Ensenada, Baja California. Maybe sell some turqoise jewelry in the Renaissance Faire.


Do ittttt ;0

I went to Ensenada a few years ago. There was a week long party in Estero Beach. I went with my roommate at the time - Carter . . . and my other friend rocky - hahaha


Ironically, I think it's nearly impossible to get a job in Mexico as a US citizen. :) So I guess I will have to do well enough to get a real job!


haha dude a real job is one that pays you money. all you need is money 8).

AffirmativeOffense
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby AffirmativeOffense » Thu May 13, 2010 1:42 pm

pugalicious wrote:
AffirmativeOffense wrote:State TTTs are cheap, but not always a good bet either. A lot of the job losses in the legal industry are structural and permanent rather than temporary (see the latest NYT article). A lot of the low level work that small firms and solos used to do has been made more efficient by websites, etc. There is a trend here. The legal market is stagnant at best; it's not a growth industry like health care or education. These cheap state TTTs and other TTTs you get a scholarship at are good values compared to other law schools, but they're teaching you a skill and giving you a credential that is losing value in today's economy. That is the problem with attending TTTs and even good law schools. They heyday is over. Analyze the cost of attending TTTs under the prism of the new market reality. Would you be better off going to law school for 3 years, or going back to grad school to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher? Choose wisely.


You would NOT be better off going back to school to be a teacher. It is a horrible time to be an educator. I don't know where you heard that education is a "growth industry". Education only grows when tax money does: lower taxes = less education $ = not hiring teachers.

Also, and this is purely for the sake of argument, why assume that someone who wants to be a lawyer could ever be a nurse or doctor? I'm sure most people would rather get out their sewing kits and do it themselves than allow me to perform medical procedures on them (on account of the screaming and throwing up I would be doing :) ). Not that I'm going to a TTT, but...are these the options only because they're the "white collar trade school" jobs?


If pre-laws understood what their chances were of working as an attorney coming from a TTT, what makes you think they'd prefer that over some other profession? Odds are, many will end up being teachers, etc out of necessity anyway. Besides, I wasn't inclusive in my list- I was just making a point. And let's just be realistic here: it's nice to do what you "love" (or rather, what you THINK you love at age 21 or 22), but this isn't 1995; jobs are not abundant. There's a trade-off that has to be made between what you love doing and what is obtainable. That's why I said to analyze this decision under the prism of the market reality.

And for what it's worth, growth in education is structural for the same reason law is structurally stagnant. We have a younger population and a lot of retiring teachers. Many states, even with the budget crunch, have critical shortage fields.

legalized
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby legalized » Thu May 13, 2010 1:43 pm

philip.platt wrote:
philip.platt wrote:
pugalicious wrote:
legalized wrote:Somebody please tell:

The middle 50% of ls graduates, all tiers...where do they go over 50% of the time as the first job?


If it's me, I'm thinking Papas & Beer in Ensenada, Baja California. Maybe sell some turqoise jewelry in the Renaissance Faire.


Do ittttt ;0

I went to Ensenada a few years ago. There was a week long party in Estero Beach. I went with my roommate at the time - Carter . . . and my other friend rocky - hahaha


They always go over "50% of the time as the first job"

have you seen the first job or mission impossible?



Legalized:

Two rules for you for litigation - - 1) Don't Play with Fire, you will get burned. 2) Don't ask loaded questions that you already know the answers to - - best - - info@blakedesigns.org


ROFL honestly I want to know, because biglaw does not represent middle 50% of graduates!

Come on, does no one have an answer that is true and not designed to make me lol! lol

AffirmativeOffense
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby AffirmativeOffense » Thu May 13, 2010 1:46 pm

legalized wrote:
AffirmativeOffense wrote:State TTTs are cheap, but not always a good bet either. A lot of the job losses in the legal industry are structural and permanent rather than temporary (see the latest NYT article). A lot of the low level work that small firms and solos used to do has been made more efficient by websites, etc. There is a trend here. The legal market is stagnant at best; it's not a growth industry like health care or education. These cheap state TTTs and other TTTs you get a scholarship at are good values compared to other law schools, but they're teaching you a skill and giving you a credential that is losing value in today's economy. That is the problem with attending TTTs and even good law schools. They heyday is over. Analyze the cost of attending TTTs under the prism of the new market reality. Would you be better off going to law school for 3 years, or going back to grad school to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher? Choose wisely.


It takes a different skill set and interest set to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher than it does to be a lawyer.

Nurses also stand on their feet all day, work with a lot of bitchy petty females, and are looked down on significantly by the doctor, the senior nurses, and anyone not the patient who they are a blessing to. The work environment, from my previous research, involves a lot of petty bickering based on who is a certificate nurse, associate nurse, bachelor's nurse, master's nurse...they're all nurses to the patient and the doctor, but there is a lot of false superiority going on based on how long you studied before you took the NCLEX.

The associate's RN is suppose to be 2 years, but the prerequisites such as microbiology and anatomy and physiology I and II ensure that you spend at least 3 years getting a 2 year degree. So then you might as well go for the bachelor's nursing if you doing that.

It takes a certain calling to go through the hell it takes to become a doctor.

And everybody and their mother is a teacher because it's a guaranteed job unless the county you are in decides to cut back on the budget by cutting you...and from the declining state of public education I would say going into teaching just for a job is a terrible thing to do to those kids. Some of the people who switched majors to education after they realized the b.s. journalism degree or whatever wasn't going to get them a job don't even LIKE children! Why are these people training the minds of tomorrow?

Some people are assholes and have no bedside manner and should never be near an un-well person. Neither as a nurse nor as a doctor.

There are some things that people rather have a lawyer navigate the paperwork for rather than do it on their own. Immigration and family law are two bread and butter fields of law that are not full of awe and glitz like the law most of TLS is interested in, but they are ALWAYS there and will never go anywhere.

For URMs there are still not enough lawyers who look like them and people, from my observations, tend to go for a lawyer with the same background or similar when at all possible. Unless the existing options look incapable then they go for a Jewish lawyer (true words from a real person!) So law is a slowing field but it depends on what you want to do and what your existing connections are to the law. What I want to do with my degree is still possible even if every biglaw company folds and drops dead. Knowing that I don't have to panic as much.


This argument is silly. One should attend a TTT if they aren't cut out to be a doctor, nurse, or teacher? Come on now. Being a lawyer is a learned skill just like teaching is. The old saying goes, "teachers are made, not born" holds true for just about every profession.

This argument is the reason many people go to law school; they think they have no options. And it's the reason many TTT grads have no legal job and probably never will.

Be VERY CAREFUL when you attend even a cheap TTT.

legalized
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby legalized » Thu May 13, 2010 1:58 pm

AffirmativeOffense wrote:
pugalicious wrote:
AffirmativeOffense wrote:State TTTs are cheap, but not always a good bet either. A lot of the job losses in the legal industry are structural and permanent rather than temporary (see the latest NYT article). A lot of the low level work that small firms and solos used to do has been made more efficient by websites, etc. There is a trend here. The legal market is stagnant at best; it's not a growth industry like health care or education. These cheap state TTTs and other TTTs you get a scholarship at are good values compared to other law schools, but they're teaching you a skill and giving you a credential that is losing value in today's economy. That is the problem with attending TTTs and even good law schools. They heyday is over. Analyze the cost of attending TTTs under the prism of the new market reality. Would you be better off going to law school for 3 years, or going back to grad school to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher? Choose wisely.


You would NOT be better off going back to school to be a teacher. It is a horrible time to be an educator. I don't know where you heard that education is a "growth industry". Education only grows when tax money does: lower taxes = less education $ = not hiring teachers.

Also, and this is purely for the sake of argument, why assume that someone who wants to be a lawyer could ever be a nurse or doctor? I'm sure most people would rather get out their sewing kits and do it themselves than allow me to perform medical procedures on them (on account of the screaming and throwing up I would be doing :) ). Not that I'm going to a TTT, but...are these the options only because they're the "white collar trade school" jobs?


If pre-laws understood what their chances were of working as an attorney coming from a TTT, what makes you think they'd prefer that over some other profession? Odds are, many will end up being teachers, etc out of necessity anyway. Besides, I wasn't inclusive in my list- I was just making a point. And let's just be realistic here: it's nice to do what you "love" (or rather, what you THINK you love at age 21 or 22), but this isn't 1995; jobs are not abundant. There's a trade-off that has to be made between what you love doing and what is obtainable. That's why I said to analyze this decision under the prism of the market reality.

And for what it's worth, growth in education is structural for the same reason law is structurally stagnant. We have a younger population and a lot of retiring teachers. Many states, even with the budget crunch, have critical shortage fields.


Despite the shortage, many of those states don't have the budget to hire the teachers necessary.

And, many people who try to lateral into teaching have found the draconian and convoluted "become certified as a teacher with the non-education degree" labyrinth POINTLESS.

I tried to get certified as a substitute just for lay income while I worked on this after my move last year, and they only do the applications and training once a year in the middle of summer, so I was SOL. Now why the hell is the process so constrained for both teachers and substitutes? Ridiculous. And they wonder why they have a shortage. Nobody who needs a job is going to wait a damn year just to apply to train for one. My friend who was trying to be an actual teacher ran up against the same issue.

She decided to just go back to school for a graduate education degree...and had trouble studying for and passing the GMAT because she is forced to work like 2 jobs with a baby under one year old. Better her than me. If it's going to be rough either way, I rather rough it out doing something I WANT to do.

That said, I am not willing to go into significant additional debt to satisfy my wants...if I don't get a sizable scholarship to attend a school with prospects in an area i don't mind living in for the rest of my career, I will, actually, turn to nursing as the second option. Mainly because I can live with standing on my feet for 3 12 hour shifts and being off 4 days of the week...and because I know at least one town where if you get accepted to nursing school and bring the acceptance notice to the hospital, they will pay for most or all of your nursing education, with the expectation that you owe them a year of work for every x amount of money they spend on you.

Guaranteed job is fine with me.

But that's if plans A, B, and C in law don't work out. lol. I have the personality to care for sick people. Not so much to deal with bitchy females and I don't like being surrounded by women, but for 3 days a week if i was a failure at everything else I attempted with my life, I could suck it up and deal with it, I guess. Nursing is plan D.

legalized
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby legalized » Thu May 13, 2010 2:01 pm

AffirmativeOffense wrote:
legalized wrote:
AffirmativeOffense wrote:State TTTs are cheap, but not always a good bet either. A lot of the job losses in the legal industry are structural and permanent rather than temporary (see the latest NYT article). A lot of the low level work that small firms and solos used to do has been made more efficient by websites, etc. There is a trend here. The legal market is stagnant at best; it's not a growth industry like health care or education. These cheap state TTTs and other TTTs you get a scholarship at are good values compared to other law schools, but they're teaching you a skill and giving you a credential that is losing value in today's economy. That is the problem with attending TTTs and even good law schools. They heyday is over. Analyze the cost of attending TTTs under the prism of the new market reality. Would you be better off going to law school for 3 years, or going back to grad school to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher? Choose wisely.


It takes a different skill set and interest set to be a nurse, doctor, or teacher than it does to be a lawyer.

Nurses also stand on their feet all day, work with a lot of bitchy petty females, and are looked down on significantly by the doctor, the senior nurses, and anyone not the patient who they are a blessing to. The work environment, from my previous research, involves a lot of petty bickering based on who is a certificate nurse, associate nurse, bachelor's nurse, master's nurse...they're all nurses to the patient and the doctor, but there is a lot of false superiority going on based on how long you studied before you took the NCLEX.

The associate's RN is suppose to be 2 years, but the prerequisites such as microbiology and anatomy and physiology I and II ensure that you spend at least 3 years getting a 2 year degree. So then you might as well go for the bachelor's nursing if you doing that.

It takes a certain calling to go through the hell it takes to become a doctor.

And everybody and their mother is a teacher because it's a guaranteed job unless the county you are in decides to cut back on the budget by cutting you...and from the declining state of public education I would say going into teaching just for a job is a terrible thing to do to those kids. Some of the people who switched majors to education after they realized the b.s. journalism degree or whatever wasn't going to get them a job don't even LIKE children! Why are these people training the minds of tomorrow?

Some people are assholes and have no bedside manner and should never be near an un-well person. Neither as a nurse nor as a doctor.

There are some things that people rather have a lawyer navigate the paperwork for rather than do it on their own. Immigration and family law are two bread and butter fields of law that are not full of awe and glitz like the law most of TLS is interested in, but they are ALWAYS there and will never go anywhere.

For URMs there are still not enough lawyers who look like them and people, from my observations, tend to go for a lawyer with the same background or similar when at all possible. Unless the existing options look incapable then they go for a Jewish lawyer (true words from a real person!) So law is a slowing field but it depends on what you want to do and what your existing connections are to the law. What I want to do with my degree is still possible even if every biglaw company folds and drops dead. Knowing that I don't have to panic as much.


This argument is silly. One should attend a TTT if they aren't cut out to be a doctor, nurse, or teacher? Come on now. Being a lawyer is a learned skill just like teaching is. The old saying goes, "teachers are made, not born" holds true for just about every profession.

This argument is the reason many people go to law school; they think they have no options. And it's the reason many TTT grads have no legal job and probably never will.

Be VERY CAREFUL when you attend even a cheap TTT.


No, my argument was why someone who WANTS to be a lawyer is not automatically cut out to be the other 3. You assume that people only want to do law cause they can't think of what else to do. I have very specific goals that only a JD would accomplish.

If I can't afford the legal education due to lack of funding, only then would I turn to something else I personally have the strength and bedside manner to do, but is not my first, second, or third choice...

If I could accomplish my original goal without a JD I wouldn't bother with all this bullshit.

Oh and edit, I don't have TTT astigmatism. So my argument is law school IN ITS ENTIRETY vs another field. People who automatically consider medicine and law as interchangeable options do not strike me as people who are serious about either. I have no interest in being a doctor and being blamed internally or legally if someone dies. I have SOME interest and talent suited to being a nurse but that uses talents I have that being a lawyer does not. Not everyone has the talent set for nursing. TTT works for people who are not interested in biglaw, are interested in practicing in the area in which the TTT is located, and/or have legacy status or other connections to law in the area where the TTT is located and therefore an inside track on the job hunt after.

It is also appropriate for people who may be leaving the U.S. to practice elsewhere where the JD is what is valued and where no one gives a damn about the school name if it's not Ivy League...and who cannot afford Harvard and the like even if accepted and even with federal loans (if they cannot qualify for private loans).
Last edited by legalized on Thu May 13, 2010 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pugalicious
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby pugalicious » Thu May 13, 2010 2:04 pm

AffirmativeOffense wrote:
This argument is silly. One should attend a TTT if they aren't cut out to be a doctor, nurse, or teacher? Come on now. Being a lawyer is a learned skill just like teaching is. The old saying goes, "teachers are made, not born" holds true for just about every profession.

This argument is the reason many people go to law school; they think they have no options. And it's the reason many TTT grads have no legal job and probably never will.

Be VERY CAREFUL when you attend even a cheap TTT.


I think the argument was that Dr., nurse, teacher are not just equal trade-offs to being a lawyer. You can't (or more likely shouldn't) just say, "Well, I didn't get into the law school I wanted, I'm going to nursing school." At least that is the gist of it as I read it.

Before I became a teacher, I thought the whole "teachers are made, not born" cliche was completely stupid - that anyone could teach, it was just another job, etc. While that is to some extent true, there are definitely some people for whom teaching comes very easy. I am not one of those people :). I imagine the situation is similar in law. Some people are just cut out for law - those people will have an easier time finding jobs, keeping jobs, rising up the ladder.

Isn't that what tests like the LSAT are supposed to measure (albeit imperfectly)? My point s that law schools know that some people are "born" lawyers, and the application process is designed to identify those people and put the in the top schools. Does that mean that a T3- or T4-educated lawyer won't ever find success? Of course not. But it will be tougher for them, as it is tougher for me to teach than it is for those "born" teachers around me.

legalized
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:45 am

Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby legalized » Thu May 13, 2010 2:10 pm

pugalicious wrote:
AffirmativeOffense wrote:
This argument is silly. One should attend a TTT if they aren't cut out to be a doctor, nurse, or teacher? Come on now. Being a lawyer is a learned skill just like teaching is. The old saying goes, "teachers are made, not born" holds true for just about every profession.

This argument is the reason many people go to law school; they think they have no options. And it's the reason many TTT grads have no legal job and probably never will.

Be VERY CAREFUL when you attend even a cheap TTT.


I think the argument was that Dr., nurse, teacher are not just equal trade-offs to being a lawyer. You can't (or more likely shouldn't) just say, "Well, I didn't get into the law school I wanted, I'm going to nursing school." At least that is the gist of it as I read it.


You got it.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to?

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu May 13, 2010 2:22 pm

lol this thread seems hilarious; i wish i got in on it earlier, but it is already too long for me to read through the whole thing...quit halfway through page 3

even by then, there were like 2 ridiculous posters hahaha man, some ppl just have really, really poor reading comprehension. informal fallacies galore.




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