Best Law School for Texas?

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:14 am

romothesavior wrote:
kalvano wrote:So what you're saying is that SMU is the best choice for Dallas? Since the T14 doesn't really want to go to Dallas?


My god you have gotta be shitting me...


no backread 5 pages... it's like she/he completely misses self-selection... we've tried. kalvano must have taken a kaplan logic class. haha.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:16 am

romothesavior wrote:
madmartigan wrote:
romothesavior wrote:It blows my mind that some people in here cannot understand self-selection. Let's try this another way. Kalvano, can you spot the difference between the two questions?

Question: Which school places more people in Dallas biglaw, Yale or SMU?
Answer: SMU. The numbers clearly show that SMU has a higher percentage of their grads in Dallas biglaw.

Question: Which school would be the best choice to land biglaw in Dallas, Yale or SMU?
Answer: Yale

The only reason SMU places better than Yale in Dallas is because barely anyone from Yale wants to friggen' go there. SMU is purely focused on Dallas, whereas Yale has about a hundred other locations their graduates are shooting for. This is called SELF SELECTION. But if you got into Yale and were SURE you wanted Dallas biglaw, you can bet your ass you would get into Dallas without any trouble at all. I use this Yale hypothetical (and others have too) because it is an extreme example of self-selection, but you can scale it back a bit and Texas works just as well.

Which school places more grads in Dallas biglaw? It looks like its approximately a wash. Why is it a wash? Is it because Dallas firms prefer SMU grads over UT grads? NO!!!! This is the point you are missing. The reason the raw numbers are so close is because UT doesn't flood employers with fresh grads like SMU does; they have self-selected out of the Dallas market and have far more options. Just like in the Yale example above, if UT students all decided to flood Dallas, they would get preference over SMU.

I really don't have much to add substantively to this debate, since I'm a 0L from outside of Texas. I just got annoyed by the fact that someone really doesn't understand self-selection..


+1 despite your poor selection of satiric performers as a tar


Christ man. Lay off the tar.


haha, k i'll try. i mean it's not like you picked Rob Schneider. :)

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:17 am

madmartigan wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
kalvano wrote:So what you're saying is that SMU is the best choice for Dallas? Since the T14 doesn't really want to go to Dallas?


My god you have gotta be shitting me...


no backread 5 pages... it's like she/he completely misses self-selection... we've tried. kalvano must have taken a kaplan logic class. haha.


Yeah I read it, which is what drew my long response. This seems futile.

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:19 am

Why would someone voluntarily select to go to Texas?

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:21 am

kalvano wrote:Why would someone voluntarily select to go to Texas?


Because they might like the state? Not everyone hates it like you.

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:23 am

romothesavior wrote:
kalvano wrote:Why would someone voluntarily select to go to Texas?


Because they might like the state? Not everyone hates it like you.


Well then, they should definitely go to SMU. If they want to be in Dallas.

Otherwise, I hear UT might be decent as well.

But also carefully consider every school ranked higher, too.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:27 am

kalvano wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
kalvano wrote:Why would someone voluntarily select to go to Texas?


Because they might like the state? Not everyone hates it like you.


Well then, they should definitely go to SMU. If they want to be in Dallas.

Otherwise, I hear UT might be decent as well.

But also carefully consider every school ranked higher, too.


alright, i'm gonna ask the more pertinent question... kalvano, have much have you had to drink tonight? i'm almost halfway through a handle of cheap sangria (you know the one).

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Grizz
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:28 am

The sheer level of ridiculousness over the concept of self-selection just boggles the mind.

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entrechatsix
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby entrechatsix » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:29 am

rad law wrote:[strike]The sheer level of ridiculousness over the concept of self-selection[/strike] this thread just boggles the mind.


ftfy

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:31 am

madmartigan wrote:
kalvano wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
kalvano wrote:Why would someone voluntarily select to go to Texas?


Because they might like the state? Not everyone hates it like you.


Well then, they should definitely go to SMU. If they want to be in Dallas.

Otherwise, I hear UT might be decent as well.

But also carefully consider every school ranked higher, too.


alright, i'm gonna ask the more pertinent question... kalvano, have much have you had to drink tonight? i'm almost halfway through a handle of cheap sangria (you know the one).




A bottle of SoBe Lifewater. Fuji Apple Pear. Quite delicious.

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Grizz
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:35 am

entrechatsix wrote:
rad law wrote:[strike]The sheer level of ridiculousness over the concept of self-selection[/strike] this thread just boggles the mind.


ftfy


+1

This thread should have been probably 5 posts long, max.

公诉人
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby 公诉人 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:17 am

Here's a few contributions:

1) there seems to be a very palpable difference between the 210 ut kids and the 30 smu kids working for v&e, a top dallas firm

2) just as a fun fact, smu's school colors are very prestigious: "harvard crimson and yale blue" ---for high academic standards!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_M ... University

3) RVP if you think that XOXO is a legit source of information, all this is largely irrelevant because it means no one will get a job, even at HLS

4) pony up kids!

P.S. RVP discussions about GPA and LSAT as warrants for arguments are probably not in good taste. Ad homs are probably not in good taste, ever
Last edited by 公诉人 on Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RVP11
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:36 am

woeisme wrote:
RVP11 wrote:In all seriousness, OP:

If you have ties to TX in general (and Dallas or Houston specifically), and assuming we are talking about BigLaw, I'd say:

YHS > CCNMVPBDN (note: Virgin-ia notably places a lot in TX, CCN don't) > UT > Corneell/George-town > SMU or Houston


For someone who has just attacked someone else for writing something without "having a clue," I'm rather surprised you're posting this.


Point out how it's wrong then. In the words of Kalvano..."prove it." :roll:

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mcflooter06
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby mcflooter06 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:10 am

billyez wrote:Heard people saying that it's real difficult for you to get into Texas politics if your from out of state - Senator Cornyn went to UVA.



He went to St. Mary's in Texas for his JD, UVA for his LLM.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:43 pm

billyez wrote:Heard people saying that it's real difficult for you to get into Texas politics if your from out of state - Senator Cornyn went to UVA.

UVA doesn't seem to be as bad as the rest of the T14 because it's still in "the South". If you went to HYS you're more likely to be branded a "liberal elitist" who is "out of touch with Texas values" by your opponent (and "opponent" in this context could be "fellow Republican in the primaries" if you're a Republican).

Seriously, people in Texas do think this way.

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Sangiovese
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Sangiovese » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:25 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Consider the following:

1) SMU places well into Dallas, but not other markets.
2) UT places into Dallas, Austin, Houston, and to some extent NYC, Atlanta, and other non-Texas markets.
3) SMU and UT place the same number of people in law firms in Dallas.

If you accept 1-3, then you should accept that law firms in Dallas go deeper into UT than SMU. Why? Because not all of the people at the top of the class at UT are going to Dallas, many of them are going to other markets. SMU's grads are not going anywhere else, they're all trying to stay in Dallas, so firms there can take from the best freely. However, to get the same number of people from UT that they take from SMU, they would have to go deeper at UT, because they can't take entirely just from the top, because many at the top self-select elsewhere.

Why does this matter? Because it means that while the same number of people from SMU and UT get into Dallas, the ones from UT aren't necessarily ranked as highly within their class. From the future lawyer's POV, it doesn't matter how many students they take from each school--it matters how deep into the class they go. Firms from Dallas will go deeper at UT out of necessity to get the same number of students than they will take from SMU. That makes UT a better school to go to even if you just want Dallas.


I'll start off by saying that I always agreed that UT was a better school to go to, even if you just want Dallas.
I also agree with your points 1-3 above.
Where I had disagreed is with the magnitude of the self selection effect on the equation.

I don't particularly like "everyone knows that" justifications, so I decided to try to find an answer using the published numbers.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/regional_TX.pdf

74% of UT grads stay in Texas. There may be nationwide opportunities... but 3/4 of UT grads remain in Texas. 87% of SMU grads stay in Texas.

We have to make a couple assumptions. You can roughly break down the Texas "Biglaw" market into thirds: Dallas, Houston, and Austin/other. Let's assume that 80% of SMU grads who stay in Texas stay in Dallas. Let's also assume that UT grads split equally into the various Texas opportunities.... meaning 1/3 go to Dallas.

For UT: 400 class size x 74% staying in Texas = 296. 296 x 33% in Dallas = 98

For SMU: 250 class size (FT+PT) x 87% staying in Texas = 218 staying in Texas. 218 x 80% in Dallas = 174

So we have 174 SMU grads competing against 98 UT grads for biglaw in Dallas.

The numbers I posted before show equal numbers from SMU and UT in the big Dallas firms. That means that a significantly higher percentage of the UT grads who are seeking employment in Dallas are finding it compared to SMU grads.

The numbers are "fuzzy" and have lots of potential error... but I'm thinking they are better than just randomly spouting off opinions.

My previous contention was that if Dallas firms go deeper into the UT class than the SMU class, the difference is negligible. My little numbers exercise proves me wrong.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:45 pm

Sangiovese wrote:My previous contention was that if Dallas firms go deeper into the UT class than the SMU class, the difference is negligible. My little numbers exercise proves me wrong.

Thank you for providing that. It's commendable that you'll both provide useful numbers and transparent analysis, and that you're willing to share them even if they show your prior assertions incorrect. That's very helpful to posters on this thread and will hopefully help settle the debate somewhat.

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RVP11
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:52 pm

公诉人 wrote:3) RVP if you think that XOXO is a legit source of information, all this is largely irrelevant because it means no one will get a job, even at HLS


I never claimed XOXO was a legit source of information. I said it was full of people A) actually in law school and many who have B) actually been through the interview process. Many have seen firm hiring grids, firm cutoffs for their school, etc. And if Kalvano went there and said SMU > UT for Dallas he'd be rightly be told off by some of these folks.


公诉人 wrote:P.S. RVP discussions about GPA and LSAT as warrants for arguments are probably not in good taste. Ad homs are probably not in good taste, ever


You must not know what an ad hominem is.

Fallacious ad hominem logical structure:

Person 1 makes claim X
There is something objectionable about Person 1
Therefore claim X is false

My valid logical structure was:

Kalvano makes claim X
Claim X is false (ridiculously so, to the point that only someone who has no clue would make the claim)
Therefore Kalvano has no credibility and his further claims should not be believed

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adrib
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby adrib » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:14 pm

Thank you for those numbers, Sangiovese! I guess I'm no longer considering SMU since I didn't deposit last week, but this would be helpful to someone still deciding.

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bonnieblue
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby bonnieblue » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:22 pm

this thread is retarded.....i'm going to smu next year, but it is painfully obvious that UT would be the better choice for dallas....

smu does well, but UT does better. end of story

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Solerpower
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Solerpower » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:26 pm

Wow, I leave for two days and come back to a 10 page fight, albeit very informative.

It seems to me that Kalvano doesn't quite understand the idea of self-selection and goes with raw data over interpretation.

Basically this question goes to RVP11 and Richie;

I have zero ties to Texas....zipo, nada.

Considering that fact, is Harvard the best school for Dallas, and maybe even Houston?

Followed by UVA and Duke or UT?

And is UT>Cornell/GTown/Penn/Mich

This question has yet to be directly answered, and instead everyone went to the SMU or UT for Dallas.

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blackknight
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby blackknight » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:43 pm

With no ties to Texas then UT is your best bet. While a Harvard grad can be lower in the class and get the job their problem would come from showing that they really want to be in Texas. Texans tend to look out for Texans. Going to UT would help make Texas firms think that you have discovered what makes Texas so great (although Texas is not nearly as good as a Texan will try and make it sound).

I am not 100% sure on how much going to UT will help demonstrate ties to Dallas and Houston, but will be finding out in a couple of months when OCI rolls around and can tell you more then.

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Grizz
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:59 pm

bonnieblue wrote:this thread is retarded.....i'm going to smu next year, but it is painfully obvious that UT would be the better choice for dallas....

smu does well, but UT does better. end of story


bonnie, congrats on your decision. I, too, have decided not to go to UGA and Emory.

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bonnieblue
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby bonnieblue » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:05 pm

rad law wrote:
bonnieblue wrote:this thread is retarded.....i'm going to smu next year, but it is painfully obvious that UT would be the better choice for dallas....

smu does well, but UT does better. end of story


bonnie, congrats on your decision. I, too, have decided not to go to UGA and Emory.


gah, I wish I was joining you at Vandy....maybe if my grades pan out nicely next year, I'll see you in 2011

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Grizz
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Grizz » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:41 pm

bonnieblue wrote:
rad law wrote:
bonnieblue wrote:this thread is retarded.....i'm going to smu next year, but it is painfully obvious that UT would be the better choice for dallas....

smu does well, but UT does better. end of story


bonnie, congrats on your decision. I, too, have decided not to go to UGA and Emory.


gah, I wish I was joining you at Vandy....maybe if my grades pan out nicely next year, I'll see you in 2011


Knock 'em dead, kid!




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