Best Law School for Texas?

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EijiMiyake
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby EijiMiyake » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:53 am

Sangiovese wrote:Why did I say neck and neck in Dallas placement? That's simple. Count the number of graduates from each school at firms in Dallas. I posted those numbers.


1. The top students at SMU get Dallas biglaw

2. The top students at UT-Austin could get Dallas biglaw, but are unlikely to want it because they have have better / other options.

3. It is very likely that you can do worse at UT-Austin (than at SMU) and still have access to Dallas biglaw.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:55 am

kalvano wrote:
madmartigan wrote:you're a non sequitur monster. i don't think this thread can move forward until you understand self-selection and how that affects raw placement numbers in markets with regional law schools.

and i'm still 50/50 as to whether you're messing with us.

since you're a bigD native. how about your opinion on uptown dallas vs montrose/midtown houston?



All of Texas sucks. Houston sucks quite a bit harder than Dallas does.

I would never fuck with people on something so serious as school debates.


why do you like dallas more than houston? i've never lived in either, but thus far, i like montrose houston the best. but i'm 20s/single if that helps.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:58 am

glassglass wrote:ugh. What the hell, I'll throw something in, seeing as how I got in at SMU, UH, and Vandy, but not UT. Vanderbilt's more portable, but I want to work in Texas. I figure UT > Vanderbilt, but does Vanderbilt > SMU in Dallas, > UH in Houston? Just wondering.



not sure on this one... i'm facing a similar decision, and I have no idea how to measure it.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:59 am

Sangiovese wrote:Why did I say neck and neck in Dallas placement? That's simple. Count the number of graduates from each school at firms in Dallas. I posted those numbers. They support my position. SMU places an almost exactly identical number of graduates into Dallas law firms as Texas does. I get self selection. Really. But the statement wasn't a hypothetical "who could place more students into Dallas?" question... it was a statement that as many SMU grads find employment in Dallas as UT grads.


Sangiovese wrote:As for firms "going deeper" into UT than SMU. By the NLJ nationwide numbers, they only go 9% deeper to start with. Assuming that there is absolutely zero "home court advantage" would mean that the firms are only going 9% deeper into the UT class... that's hardly earth shattering.

Consider the following:

1) SMU places well into Dallas, but not other markets.
2) UT places into Dallas, Austin, Houston, and to some extent NYC, Atlanta, and other non-Texas markets.
3) SMU and UT place the same number of people in law firms in Dallas.

If you accept 1-3, then you should accept that law firms in Dallas go deeper into UT than SMU. Why? Because not all of the people at the top of the class at UT are going to Dallas, many of them are going to other markets. SMU's grads are not going anywhere else, they're all trying to stay in Dallas, so firms there can take from the best freely. However, to get the same number of people from UT that they take from SMU, they would have to go deeper at UT, because they can't take entirely just from the top, because many at the top self-select elsewhere.

Why does this matter? Because it means that while the same number of people from SMU and UT get into Dallas, the ones from UT aren't necessarily ranked as highly within their class. From the future lawyer's POV, it doesn't matter how many students they take from each school--it matters how deep into the class they go. Firms from Dallas will go deeper at UT out of necessity to get the same number of students than they will take from SMU. That makes UT a better school to go to even if you just want Dallas.

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:01 am

madmartigan wrote:
kalvano wrote:
madmartigan wrote:you're a non sequitur monster. i don't think this thread can move forward until you understand self-selection and how that affects raw placement numbers in markets with regional law schools.

and i'm still 50/50 as to whether you're messing with us.

since you're a bigD native. how about your opinion on uptown dallas vs montrose/midtown houston?



All of Texas sucks. Houston sucks quite a bit harder than Dallas does.

I would never fuck with people on something so serious as school debates.


why do you like dallas more than houston? i've never lived in either, but thus far, i like montrose houston the best. but i'm 20s/single if that helps.



Houston is a dirtier, hotter, more humid, crime-ridden, traffic-stress-inducing place.

Uptown Dallas is great for shallow girls with giant fake boobs who spend 45 minutes putting make-up on to take the trash out. They love you for who you are, as long as who you are means driving a BMW (a Mercedes is acceptable as well) and can take them to all the places where they can be seen and gaggle together to discuss how awesome they are.

Houston is about the same, except it's acceptable to drive an Infiniti, and they don't get their boobs done quite as large.


But hey, outside L.A. and NYC, Dallas has some of the best shopping in the USA. Not one, but two, Tiffany & Co. stores. Just so you don't have to drive more than 15 minutes to get to them.











Really, I'm not the best person to ask about Texas. You might try someone who likes the state.


Also, not that I mind hot girls with giant fake boobs. But after you realize that conversation (or anything requiring brain power) is somewhat limited, the appeal wears thin.
Last edited by kalvano on Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:02 am

vanwinkle wrote:
madmartigan wrote:right on. I would love to hear any other perspectives on tx schools and tx markets, since i'm still undecided.

UVA places rather well into the TX markets. In the last three years it has placed:

22 grads into law firms in Dallas
3 grads into clerkships in Dallas
18 grads into law firms in Houston
5 grads into clerkships in Houston
1 person into PI employment in Houston

Since you're actually capable of understanding the concept of self-selection and how it affects employment numbers, you'll probably appreciate how good this is (especially after considering UVA placed 224 grads in NYC law firms and 218 grads in DC law firms in that 3-year span; that's 40% of folks graduated in the last 3 years right there).

The fact that it's a prestigious institution and isn't too well-represented in Texas can also work to your advantage, since law firms like diversity of degrees in their incoming classes. There are enough UVA Law grads going to Texas to give you alumni connections, but not so many that you're going to be competing heavily for the same jobs with the same firms, like you would against your classmates at UT, SMU, etc.


I've narrowed my choices down to WashU$, UIUC$$, and UHouston$$. I'm not set on TX, I'm just set on living in a big city. I think Chitown may be too cold for me. WashU didn't offer as much scratch as UHouston, so I'm leaning UHouston, but there really isn't a clear answer here. I just want to live in a big city and have a good shot at good job placement, and factor in cost of attendance.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:03 am

kalvano wrote:Uptown Dallas is great for shallow girls with giant fake boobs who spend 45 minutes putting make-up on to take the trash out. They love you for who you are, as long as who you are means driving a BMW (a Mercedes is acceptable as well) and can take them to all the places where they can be seen and gaggle together to discuss how awesome they are.

This is credited, and one of many reasons I left Texas.

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:04 am

glassglass wrote:ugh. What the hell, I'll throw something in, seeing as how I got in at SMU, UH, and Vandy, but not UT. Vanderbilt's more portable, but I want to work in Texas. I figure UT > Vanderbilt, but does Vanderbilt > SMU in Dallas, > UH in Houston? Just wondering.



Definitely SMU if you want to work in Dallas.

Haven't you been paying attention?

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:07 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Sangiovese wrote:Why did I say neck and neck in Dallas placement? That's simple. Count the number of graduates from each school at firms in Dallas. I posted those numbers. They support my position. SMU places an almost exactly identical number of graduates into Dallas law firms as Texas does. I get self selection. Really. But the statement wasn't a hypothetical "who could place more students into Dallas?" question... it was a statement that as many SMU grads find employment in Dallas as UT grads.


Sangiovese wrote:As for firms "going deeper" into UT than SMU. By the NLJ nationwide numbers, they only go 9% deeper to start with. Assuming that there is absolutely zero "home court advantage" would mean that the firms are only going 9% deeper into the UT class... that's hardly earth shattering.

Consider the following:

1) SMU places well into Dallas, but not other markets.
2) UT places into Dallas, Austin, Houston, and to some extent NYC, Atlanta, and other non-Texas markets.
3) SMU and UT place the same number of people in law firms in Dallas.

If you accept 1-3, then you should accept that law firms in Dallas go deeper into UT than SMU. Why? Because not all of the people at the top of the class at UT are going to Dallas, many of them are going to other markets. SMU's grads are not going anywhere else, they're all trying to stay in Dallas, so firms there can take from the best freely. However, to get the same number of people from UT that they take from SMU, they would have to go deeper at UT, because they can't take entirely just from the top, because many at the top self-select elsewhere.

Why does this matter? Because it means that while the same number of people from SMU and UT get into Dallas, the ones from UT aren't necessarily ranked as highly within their class. From the future lawyer's POV, it doesn't matter how many students they take from each school--it matters how deep into the class they go. Firms from Dallas will go deeper at UT out of necessity to get the same number of students than they will take from SMU. That makes UT a better school to go to even if you just want Dallas.


my only umbrage with this argument... i would imagine it is easier to finish top10% at SMU than it is at UT. I know this leads to a circular argument (why go to a better school if you can do better at a shotty school), but I still think its worth considering.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:09 am

madmartigan wrote:my only umbrage with this argument... i would imagine it is easier to finish top10% at SMU than it is at UT. I know this leads to a circular argument (why go to a better school if you can do better at a shotty school), but I still think its worth considering.

I have never agreed with this. Making Top 10% at a Tier-1 school is an accomplishment no matter which school you go to. This is why T14 schools take folks in the top 10% at T1s as transfers, and those transfers often do well and end up close to the top of their class even in their T14s.

Given that, I doubt it's that much easier to be top 10% at SMU than UT.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:14 am

kalvano wrote:
madmartigan wrote:
kalvano wrote:
madmartigan wrote:you're a non sequitur monster. i don't think this thread can move forward until you understand self-selection and how that affects raw placement numbers in markets with regional law schools.

and i'm still 50/50 as to whether you're messing with us.

since you're a bigD native. how about your opinion on uptown dallas vs montrose/midtown houston?



All of Texas sucks. Houston sucks quite a bit harder than Dallas does.

I would never fuck with people on something so serious as school debates.


why do you like dallas more than houston? i've never lived in either, but thus far, i like montrose houston the best. but i'm 20s/single if that helps.



Houston is a dirtier, hotter, more humid, crime-ridden, traffic-stress-inducing place.

Uptown Dallas is great for shallow girls with giant fake boobs who spend 45 minutes putting make-up on to take the trash out. They love you for who you are, as long as who you are means driving a BMW (a Mercedes is acceptable as well) and can take them to all the places where they can be seen and gaggle together to discuss how awesome they are.

Houston is about the same, except it's acceptable to drive an Infiniti, and they don't get their boobs done quite as large.


But hey, outside L.A. and NYC, Dallas has some of the best shopping in the USA. Not one, but two, Tiffany & Co. stores. Just so you don't have to drive more than 15 minutes to get to them.











Really, I'm not the best person to ask about Texas. You might try someone who likes the state.


Also, not that I mind hot girls with giant fake boobs. But after you realize that conversation (or anything requiring brain power) is somewhat limited, the appeal wears thin.


hmmm, interesting take. big boobs are nice, but low on my list qualities (unless its a one-niter). I lived in nyc while doing grad work so dirty cities do not affect me. I''m actually not that shallow... i know money>status>attractiveness gets the ladies. but i'll take a cute bohemian chick over blond hair/big boobs.

no sweat. i'm trying to gather all tx perspectives and blend them into a meta-perspective to make my decision. so anything is appreciated (aside from your perspective on t14 vs smu ;) )

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:16 am

madmartigan wrote:hmmm, interesting take. big boobs are nice, but low on my list qualities (unless its a one-niter). I lived in nyc while doing grad work so dirty cities do not affect me. I''m actually not that shallow... i know money>status>attractiveness gets the ladies. but i'll take a cute bohemian chick over blond hair/big boobs.

no sweat. i'm trying to gather all tx perspectives and blend them into a meta-perspective to make my decision. so anything is appreciated (aside from your perspective on t14 vs smu ;) )



You're screwed in Texas.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:17 am

vanwinkle wrote:
madmartigan wrote:my only umbrage with this argument... i would imagine it is easier to finish top10% at SMU than it is at UT. I know this leads to a circular argument (why go to a better school if you can do better at a shotty school), but I still think its worth considering.

I have never agreed with this. Making Top 10% at a Tier-1 school is an accomplishment no matter which school you go to. This is why T14 schools take folks in the top 10% at T1s as transfers, and those transfers often do well and end up close to the top of their class even in their T14s.

Given that, I doubt it's that much easier to be top 10% at SMU than UT.


"Given that, I doubt it's that much easier to be top 10% at SMU than UT." - this is where i am unsure

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:19 am

kalvano wrote:
madmartigan wrote:hmmm, interesting take. big boobs are nice, but low on my list qualities (unless its a one-niter). I lived in nyc while doing grad work so dirty cities do not affect me. I''m actually not that shallow... i know money>status>attractiveness gets the ladies. but i'll take a cute bohemian chick over blond hair/big boobs.

no sweat. i'm trying to gather all tx perspectives and blend them into a meta-perspective to make my decision. so anything is appreciated (aside from your perspective on t14 vs smu ;) )



You're screwed in Texas.


mahaha, i know. but williamsburg nyc is too expensive. they are far and few between in tx. i'm hoping the upcoming emo generation will churn out some, once they mature and adopt the ethics of bohemians, not just the image.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Stringer Bell » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:29 am

I'm jumping in late and only read the first and last page, but there appears to be alot of misinformation ITT.

Anyone that thinks that SMU will place deeper in to their class for Dallas biglaw than HLS, UT, UVA, or Duke probably has no idea WTF they are talking about.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:36 am

Stringer Bell wrote:I'm jumping in late and only read the first and last page, but there appears to be alot of misinformation ITT.

Anyone that thinks that SMU will place deeper in to their class for Dallas biglaw than HLS, UT, UVA, or Duke probably has no idea WTF they are talking about.


stringer bell, just cause you take some MBA classes doesn't mean you know how to run the dope biz or advise on law school.

kidding, i'm with you. do you have your sights set on tx for law school?

Lonestar87
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Lonestar87 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:41 am

I am a born Texan...lived in Dallas for the first 10 years of my life. I am 23 years old now and just moved back to Texas in San Antonio. During my 13 years I was not in Texas, I lived 1 year in Canada, 2 years in India and 10 years in Seattle. As I thought I was a gung ho Texan, I moved back and boy was I wrong. I originally wanted to go to UT and thought the hot weather was cool....well it is not. People are waaaaaaaaaay too arrogant down here and Texans have no clue what is going on in other states. Most people in San Antonio do not even know that Washington is a state. So, being born Texan I am really not a Texan and if you come here.......you are truly coming to a different planet all together. Dallas is nice city and so is Austin. San Antonio.........is a plagued backward city too much hispanic culture and not progressive thinking kills this big city with a SMALL city mentality. Also, Texans with their huge truck and SUVS drive crazy as hell. I am trying to get out ASAP! I am a born Texan.....just not with the mentality.

texasforever
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby texasforever » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:49 am

Anyone who has posted in this thread and has not yet been employed by a big law firm has no room to say anything of substance.. jesus christ I wish that biglaw would require starting associates to post on these boards telling everyone to eat shit because they have no idea what they are talking about..

I can't tell you how many people I have met from Haynes & Boone, V&E, Fulbright, etc. that went to south texas, wesleyan, baylor and schools that weren't UT, SMU, or UofH. To be honest, if you go to SMU or UofH and are top 25%, you can suck enough dick in those respective markets to make $160 a year even if it's not a global firm.

It's not the grades you make, it's the hands you shake. Here's to everyone thinking that 90 hour weeks, no family, and sucking dicks for 10 years is going to be enjoyable and everything we had hoped for in law school. And here's to being drunk on TLS..

For everyone who is two boners up for UT, you should read this: (why UT law students say their education is completely worthless)
--LinkRemoved--

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billyez
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby billyez » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:56 am

Heard people saying that it's real difficult for you to get into Texas politics if your from out of state - Senator Cornyn went to UVA.

woeisme
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby woeisme » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:57 am

RVP11 wrote:In all seriousness, OP:

If you have ties to TX in general (and Dallas or Houston specifically), and assuming we are talking about BigLaw, I'd say:

YHS > CCNMVPBDN (note: Virgin-ia notably places a lot in TX, CCN don't) > UT > Corneell/George-town > SMU or Houston


For someone who has just attacked someone else for writing something without "having a clue," I'm rather surprised you're posting this.

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:48 am

It blows my mind that some people in here cannot understand self-selection. Let's try this another way. Kalvano, can you spot the difference between the two questions?

Question: Which school places more people in Dallas biglaw, Yale or SMU?
Answer: SMU. The numbers clearly show that SMU has a higher percentage of their grads in Dallas biglaw.

Question: Which school would be the best choice to land biglaw in Dallas, Yale or SMU?
Answer: Yale

The only reason SMU places better than Yale in Dallas is because barely anyone from Yale wants to friggen' go there. SMU is purely focused on Dallas, whereas Yale has about a hundred other locations their graduates are shooting for. This is called SELF SELECTION. But if you got into Yale and were SURE you wanted Dallas biglaw, you can bet your ass you would get into Dallas without any trouble at all. I use this Yale hypothetical (and others have too) because it is an extreme example of self-selection, but you can scale it back a bit and Texas works just as well.

Which school places more grads in Dallas biglaw? It looks like its approximately a wash. Why is it a wash? Is it because Dallas firms prefer SMU grads over UT grads? NO!!!! This is the point you are missing. The reason the raw numbers are so close is because UT doesn't flood employers with fresh grads like SMU does; they have self-selected out of the Dallas market and have far more options. Just like in the Yale example above, if UT students all decided to flood Dallas, they would get preference over SMU.

I really don't have much to add substantively to this debate, since I'm a 0L from outside of Texas. I just got annoyed by the fact that someone really doesn't understand self-selection..

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:51 am

So what you're saying is that SMU is the best choice for Dallas? Since the T14 doesn't really want to go to Dallas?

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:06 am

kalvano wrote:So what you're saying is that SMU is the best choice for Dallas? Since the T14 doesn't really want to go to Dallas?


My god you have gotta be shitting me...

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:10 am

romothesavior wrote:It blows my mind that some people in here cannot understand self-selection. Let's try this another way. Kalvano, can you spot the difference between the two questions?

Question: Which school places more people in Dallas biglaw, Yale or SMU?
Answer: SMU. The numbers clearly show that SMU has a higher percentage of their grads in Dallas biglaw.

Question: Which school would be the best choice to land biglaw in Dallas, Yale or SMU?
Answer: Yale

The only reason SMU places better than Yale in Dallas is because barely anyone from Yale wants to friggen' go there. SMU is purely focused on Dallas, whereas Yale has about a hundred other locations their graduates are shooting for. This is called SELF SELECTION. But if you got into Yale and were SURE you wanted Dallas biglaw, you can bet your ass you would get into Dallas without any trouble at all. I use this Yale hypothetical (and others have too) because it is an extreme example of self-selection, but you can scale it back a bit and Texas works just as well.

Which school places more grads in Dallas biglaw? It looks like its approximately a wash. Why is it a wash? Is it because Dallas firms prefer SMU grads over UT grads? NO!!!! This is the point you are missing. The reason the raw numbers are so close is because UT doesn't flood employers with fresh grads like SMU does; they have self-selected out of the Dallas market and have far more options. Just like in the Yale example above, if UT students all decided to flood Dallas, they would get preference over SMU.

I really don't have much to add substantively to this debate, since I'm a 0L from outside of Texas. I just got annoyed by the fact that someone really doesn't understand self-selection..


+1 despite your poor selection of satiric performers as a tar

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romothesavior
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:11 am

madmartigan wrote:
romothesavior wrote:It blows my mind that some people in here cannot understand self-selection. Let's try this another way. Kalvano, can you spot the difference between the two questions?

Question: Which school places more people in Dallas biglaw, Yale or SMU?
Answer: SMU. The numbers clearly show that SMU has a higher percentage of their grads in Dallas biglaw.

Question: Which school would be the best choice to land biglaw in Dallas, Yale or SMU?
Answer: Yale

The only reason SMU places better than Yale in Dallas is because barely anyone from Yale wants to friggen' go there. SMU is purely focused on Dallas, whereas Yale has about a hundred other locations their graduates are shooting for. This is called SELF SELECTION. But if you got into Yale and were SURE you wanted Dallas biglaw, you can bet your ass you would get into Dallas without any trouble at all. I use this Yale hypothetical (and others have too) because it is an extreme example of self-selection, but you can scale it back a bit and Texas works just as well.

Which school places more grads in Dallas biglaw? It looks like its approximately a wash. Why is it a wash? Is it because Dallas firms prefer SMU grads over UT grads? NO!!!! This is the point you are missing. The reason the raw numbers are so close is because UT doesn't flood employers with fresh grads like SMU does; they have self-selected out of the Dallas market and have far more options. Just like in the Yale example above, if UT students all decided to flood Dallas, they would get preference over SMU.

I really don't have much to add substantively to this debate, since I'm a 0L from outside of Texas. I just got annoyed by the fact that someone really doesn't understand self-selection..


+1 despite your poor selection of satiric performers as a tar


Christ man. Lay off the tar.




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