Best Law School for Texas?

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chrisokc
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby chrisokc » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:17 pm

RVP11 wrote:
chrisokc wrote:
RVP11 wrote:In all seriousness, OP:

If you have ties to TX in general (and Dallas or Houston specifically), and assuming we are talking about BigLaw, I'd say:

YHS > CCNMVPBDN (note: Virgin-ia notably places a lot in TX, CCN don't) > UT > Corneell/George-town > SMU or Houston

So you're saying Pennnsylvania or Corn-ell are better than SMU for biglaw jobs in TX? How do you even go about measuring that? I would say that if you're interested in practicing in a big firm in TX, going to one of those schools would not be your wisest option.


And I'd say that you're wrong.

Penn and Cornell are better than SMU for BigLaw jobs EVERYWHERE.

We all get that TX is an insular market. But TX BigLaw firms aren't having Bob Buckaroo of Tex "Tripp" McCoy do their interviews and they're not going to hold it against someone with the necessary TX ties for going to an elite school. Firms like to have school diversity - this is why more than one 3L on here has recommended picking against a school's primary market.

I doubt a top-14 education would ever be held against a candidate. Let's say Billy Bob lives in Dallas and only wishes to work in Dallas. Why would he go to Ithaca or Philadelphia for an education that may or may not provide him with an advantage over his SMU-educated competitor?

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RVP11
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:20 pm

chrisokc wrote:
RVP11 wrote:
chrisokc wrote:
RVP11 wrote:In all seriousness, OP:

If you have ties to TX in general (and Dallas or Houston specifically), and assuming we are talking about BigLaw, I'd say:

YHS > CCNMVPBDN (note: Virgin-ia notably places a lot in TX, CCN don't) > UT > Corneell/George-town > SMU or Houston

So you're saying Pennnsylvania or Corn-ell are better than SMU for biglaw jobs in TX? How do you even go about measuring that? I would say that if you're interested in practicing in a big firm in TX, going to one of those schools would not be your wisest option.


And I'd say that you're wrong.

Penn and Cornell are better than SMU for BigLaw jobs EVERYWHERE.

We all get that TX is an insular market. But TX BigLaw firms aren't having Bob Buckaroo of Tex "Tripp" McCoy do their interviews and they're not going to hold it against someone with the necessary TX ties for going to an elite school. Firms like to have school diversity - this is why more than one 3L on here has recommended picking against a school's primary market.

I doubt a top-14 education would ever be held against a candidate. Let's say Billy Bob lives in Dallas and only wishes to work in Dallas. Why would he go to Ithaca or Philadelphia for an education that may or may not provide him with an advantage over his SMU-educated competitor?


Because it WOULD provide him with an advantage over his SMU-educated competitor, if he's trying to get BigLaw. Given equal class rank, of course. Obviously top 10% at SMU would be great, but no one should count on that.

chrisokc
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby chrisokc » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:28 pm

And I'd say that you're wrong.

Penn and Cornell are better than SMU for BigLaw jobs EVERYWHERE.

We all get that TX is an insular market. But TX BigLaw firms aren't having Bob Buckaroo of Tex "Tripp" McCoy do their interviews and they're not going to hold it against someone with the necessary TX ties for going to an elite school. Firms like to have school diversity - this is why more than one 3L on here has recommended picking against a school's primary market.[/quote]
I doubt a top-14 education would ever be held against a candidate. Let's say Billy Bob lives in Dallas and only wishes to work in Dallas. Why would he go to Ithaca or Philadelphia for an education that may or may not provide him with an advantage over his SMU-educated competitor?[/quote]

Because it WOULD provide him with an advantage over his SMU-educated competitor, if he's trying to get BigLaw. Given equal class rank, of course. Obviously top 10% at SMU would be great, but no one should count on that.[/quote]
You think top 25% from Cornell beats top 15% from SMU at the big firms in Dallas?

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kalvano
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:29 pm

chrisokc wrote:You think top 25% from Cornell beats top 15% from SMU at the big firms in Dallas?



Yes, he does.

But he goes to UVA so he has to think that way, or his entire world view is thrown askew.

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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby chrisokc » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:36 pm

kalvano wrote:
chrisokc wrote:You think top 25% from Cornell beats top 15% from SMU at the big firms in Dallas?



Yes, he does.

But he goes to UVA so he has to think that way, or his entire world view is thrown askew.

All I'm saying is that home-court advantages are real.

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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby chrisokc » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:42 pm

kalvano wrote:
chrisokc wrote:You think top 25% from Cornell beats top 15% from SMU at the big firms in Dallas?



Yes, he does.

But he goes to UVA so he has to think that way, or his entire world view is thrown askew.

Are there a lot of assholes in Virginia?

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kalvano
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:54 pm

chrisokc wrote:
kalvano wrote:
chrisokc wrote:You think top 25% from Cornell beats top 15% from SMU at the big firms in Dallas?



Yes, he does.

But he goes to UVA so he has to think that way, or his entire world view is thrown askew.

All I'm saying is that home-court advantages are real.



I'm agreeing with you. Despite what he thinks, aside from maybe HYS, a T14 won't throw around near as much weight in Dallas as he wants to believe.

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RVP11
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:41 pm

kalvano wrote:
chrisokc wrote:
kalvano wrote:
chrisokc wrote:You think top 25% from Cornell beats top 15% from SMU at the big firms in Dallas?



Yes, he does.

But he goes to UVA so he has to think that way, or his entire world view is thrown askew.

All I'm saying is that home-court advantages are real.


I'm agreeing with you. Despite what he thinks, aside from maybe HYS, a T14 won't throw around near as much weight in Dallas as he wants to believe.


Kalvano: Don't put words in my mouth. And you're wrong, as usual.

Chrisokc: Home court advantage is real, but it's constantly exaggerated on TLS. All I'm saying is that firms would likely be willing to go deeper in the class at Cornell, and a Cornell student with TX ties would have very little in-school competition for the job.

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kalvano
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:45 pm

RVP11 wrote:Kalvano: Don't put words in my mouth. And you're wrong, as usual.


It's funny how pretty much everyone actually familiar with the Dallas legal market disagrees with you.

RVP11 wrote:Chrisokc: Home court advantage is real, but it's constantly exaggerated on TLS. All I'm saying is that firms would likely be willing to go deeper in the class at Cornell, and a Cornell student with TX ties would have very little in-school competition for the job.


Or, conversely, you are overestimating the importance of a T14 school in the Dallas area. I know it's gospel around here that T14 trumps all, but it's not always true, just usually true.

Nice throwing in of "Texas ties" and subtly trying to shift your argument.

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RVP11
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:11 pm

kalvano wrote:
RVP11 wrote:Kalvano: Don't put words in my mouth. And you're wrong, as usual.


It's funny how pretty much everyone actually familiar with the Dallas legal market disagrees with you.

RVP11 wrote:Chrisokc: Home court advantage is real, but it's constantly exaggerated on TLS. All I'm saying is that firms would likely be willing to go deeper in the class at Cornell, and a Cornell student with TX ties would have very little in-school competition for the job.


Or, conversely, you are overestimating the importance of a T14 school in the Dallas area. I know it's gospel around here that T14 trumps all, but it's not always true, just usually true.

Nice throwing in of "Texas ties" and subtly trying to shift your argument.


"Familiar with the Dallas legal market"? Where's the proof? How do you know that I'm not familiar with the market?

Shifting my argument? Read my first assertive post in this thread:

In all seriousness, OP:

If you have ties to TX in general (and Dallas or Houston specifically), and assuming we are talking about BigLaw, I'd say:

YHS > CCNMVPBDN (note: Virgin-ia notably places a lot in TX, CCN don't) > UT > Corneell/George-town > SMU or Houston

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kalvano
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:20 pm

RVP11 wrote:"Familiar with the Dallas legal market"? Where's the proof? How do you know that I'm not familiar with the market?


Proof of what? You're making a lot of claims running counter to what people familiar with the market are saying. Shouldn't you be the one providing proof?


RVP11 wrote:Shifting my argument? Read my first assertive post in this thread:

RVP11 wrote:In all seriousness, OP:

If you have ties to TX in general (and Dallas or Houston specifically), and assuming we are talking about BigLaw, I'd say:

YHS > CCNMVPBDN (note: Virgin-ia notably places a lot in TX, CCN don't) > UT > Corneell/George-town > SMU or Houston


Sorry, I lost that reference in the hodgepodge of alphabet soup you threw out. It's still an unfounded assumption on your part which you need to be true to validate your choice of UVA.

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RVP11
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:41 pm

kalvano wrote:Proof of what? You're making a lot of claims running counter to what people familiar with the market are saying. Shouldn't you be the one providing proof?

Sorry, I lost that reference in the hodgepodge of alphabet soup you threw out. It's still an unfounded assumption on your part which you need to be true to validate your choice of UVA.


If you went to the Legal Employment forum or onto XOXO, or anywhere not populated almost entirely by 0Ls, and said that, for Dallas BigLaw, you can be lower in the class from SMU than from lower T14s, you'd rightly be laughed at and told to shut your hole. By people who know plenty more than you do. You lost all credibility at "SMU > UT for Dallas!"

Hodgpodge of alphabet soup? You're just trying to string together what you think might be stinging or demeaning language. I've spent most of this thread trying to correct you on what is established.

And re: my choice of UVA - I didn't choose it so I could go back to Texas. Again, this seems like a personal strike and irrelevant to the topic at hand. I could just as easily call you out for being an SMU 0L, but I was trying to have a bit of class about it.
Last edited by RVP11 on Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:42 pm

I love how the arguments in favor of SMU are anecdotal. The statistics on the other hand...

In 2009 UT put 156 grads (36.6%) in NLJ250.

SMU put 65 grads (23%) in NLJ250.

156 to 65. Considering Austin has a smaller legal market, it is likely Houston and Dallas take the bulk of their grads. Also, 1/3 of UT grads go out of state - the majority of which are NYC/DC/CA. I'm curious how SMU does OOS, but I'd bet the farm they don't put 1/3 OOS.

SMU is a good school with a great market; I wouldn't knock it. It's just not on par with UT, in any city.

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RVP11
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:43 pm

madmartigan wrote:I love how the arguments in favor of SMU are anecdotal. The statistics on the other hand...

In 2009 UT put 156 grads (36.6%) in NLJ250.

SMU put 65 grads (23%) in NLJ250.

156 to 65. Considering Austin has a smaller legal market, it is likely Houston and Dallas take the bulk of their grads. Also, 1/3 of UT grads go out of state - the majority of which are NYC/DC/CA. I'm curious how SMU does OOS, but I'd bet the farm they don't put 1/3 OOS.

SMU is a good school with a great market; I wouldn't knock it. It's just not on par with UT, in any city.


But, but...people "familiar" with the Dallas legal market said SMU is better! :oops: :cry:

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:47 pm

RVP11 wrote:
madmartigan wrote:I love how the arguments in favor of SMU are anecdotal. The statistics on the other hand...

In 2009 UT put 156 grads (36.6%) in NLJ250.

SMU put 65 grads (23%) in NLJ250.

156 to 65. Considering Austin has a smaller legal market, it is likely Houston and Dallas take the bulk of their grads. Also, 1/3 of UT grads go out of state - the majority of which are NYC/DC/CA. I'm curious how SMU does OOS, but I'd bet the farm they don't put 1/3 OOS.

SMU is a good school with a great market; I wouldn't knock it. It's just not on par with UT, in any city.


But, but...people "familiar" with the Dallas legal market said SMU is better! :oops: :cry:


Right. I live close to Dallas, and everyone I talk to says UT owns all other TX schools in TX markets. But I prefer to form judgments based on empirical data.

I'll likely attend UHouston. And I'd make the same argument in Houston, UT>UH.

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:51 pm

madmartigan wrote:I love how the arguments in favor of SMU are anecdotal. The statistics on the other hand...

In 2009 UT put 156 grads (36.6%) in NLJ250.

SMU put 65 grads (23%) in NLJ250.

156 to 65. Considering Austin has a smaller legal market, it is likely Houston and Dallas take the bulk of their grads. Also, 1/3 of UT grads go out of state - the majority of which are NYC/DC/CA. I'm curious how SMU does OOS, but I'd bet the farm they don't put 1/3 OOS.

SMU is a good school with a great market; I wouldn't knock it. It's just not on par with UT, in any city.



And how many of those UT grads are in Dallas Biglaw versus SMU grads? The argument has never been whether or not UT is a better-placing school. It is. The argument has been which school places better in Dallas.

And oh, wait...I've got that right here -

Sangiovese wrote:For example let's look at the firm Jones Day:
There are 38 SMU grads that work for Jones Day in Dallas
There are 39 UT grads that work for Jones Day in Dallas

Another example, Baker Botts:
31 SMU in Dallas
32 UT in Dallas

Another example, Haynes and Boone:
38 SMU in Dallas
14 UT in Dallas

Another example, Thompson & Knight:
14 SMU in Dallas
51 UT in Dallas

Another example, Sidley Austin:
7 SMU in Dallas
6 UT in Dallas


Aside from Thompson & Knight (favors UT) and Haynes and Boone (favors SMU) it looks like pretty equal representation between SMU and UT in the big firms in Dallas. So what exactly leads you to say that the firms "dig deeper" into the UT class than SMU?

Generic stats saying that more of the UT class get biglaw don't mean squat when the discussion is focused on one city. And in this one city, SMU places dead even with UT.

It is debatable which school is the better choice if you want to work in Dallas... but to come in and spout off nonsense about placement opportunities in the city with zero data to back it up is pretty... well... crappy
Last edited by kalvano on Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:56 pm

RVP11 wrote:
kalvano wrote:Proof of what? You're making a lot of claims running counter to what people familiar with the market are saying. Shouldn't you be the one providing proof?

Sorry, I lost that reference in the hodgepodge of alphabet soup you threw out. It's still an unfounded assumption on your part which you need to be true to validate your choice of UVA.


If you went to the Legal Employment forum or onto XOXO, or anywhere not populated almost entirely by 0Ls, and said that, for Dallas BigLaw, you can be lower in the class from SMU than from lower T14s, you'd rightly be laughed at and told to shut your hole. By people who know plenty more than you do. You lost all credibility at "SMU > UT for Dallas!"

Hodgpodge of alphabet soup? You're just trying to string together what you think might be stinging or demeaning language. I've spent most of this thread trying to correct you on what is established.

And re: my choice of UVA - I didn't choose it so I could go back to Texas. Again, this seems like a personal strike and irrelevant to the topic at hand. I could just as easily call you out for being an SMU 0L, but I was trying to have a bit of class about it.



What I find funny in this is you continue making claims, yet you offer no evidence to back it up.

Show me the data that says a UPenn or Berkley or Cornell grad in the top 25% of his class has a better shot at Dallas Biglaw than a person in a similar position at SMU. I mean, it's all established, right? Should be a hop, skip, and a jump away to find the evidence to strike down the measly 0L. So do it. Get some of those people from the Legal Employment forum to come back you up.

Come on.




And I have no intention of going to SMU if I can possibly help it.

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madmartigan
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby madmartigan » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:02 am

kalvano wrote:
madmartigan wrote:I love how the arguments in favor of SMU are anecdotal. The statistics on the other hand...

In 2009 UT put 156 grads (36.6%) in NLJ250.

SMU put 65 grads (23%) in NLJ250.

156 to 65. Considering Austin has a smaller legal market, it is likely Houston and Dallas take the bulk of their grads. Also, 1/3 of UT grads go out of state - the majority of which are NYC/DC/CA. I'm curious how SMU does OOS, but I'd bet the farm they don't put 1/3 OOS.

SMU is a good school with a great market; I wouldn't knock it. It's just not on par with UT, in any city.



And how many of those UT grads are in Dallas Biglaw versus SMU grads? The argument has never been whether or not UT is a better-placing school. It is. The argument has been which school places better in Dallas.

And oh, wait...I've got that right here -

Sangiovese wrote:For example let's look at the firm Jones Day:
There are 38 SMU grads that work for Jones Day in Dallas
There are 39 UT grads that work for Jones Day in Dallas

Another example, Baker Botts:
31 SMU in Dallas
32 UT in Dallas

Another example, Haynes and Boone:
38 SMU in Dallas
14 UT in Dallas

Another example, Thompson & Knight:
14 SMU in Dallas
51 UT in Dallas

Another example, Sidley Austin:
7 SMU in Dallas
6 UT in Dallas


Aside from Thompson & Knight (favors UT) and Haynes and Boone (favors SMU) it looks like pretty equal representation between SMU and UT in the big firms in Dallas. So what exactly leads you to say that the firms "dig deeper" into the UT class than SMU?

Generic stats saying that more of the UT class get biglaw don't mean squat when the discussion is focused on one city. And in this one city, SMU places dead even with UT.

It is debatable which school is the better choice if you want to work in Dallas... but to come in and spout off nonsense about placement opportunities in the city with zero data to back it up is pretty... well... crappy


I already addressed those numbers.The overwhelming majority of SMU work in Dallas; mostly due to lack of options. UT sends grads everywhere, OOS and other TX cities. If UT grads attempted to work in Dallas the same way SMU grads do, SMU would be in trouble.

The question is which school provides the best opportunity for biglaw in Dallas. Not, which school places more grads in Dallas biglaw.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:05 am

kalvano wrote:
It's funny how pretty much everyone actually familiar with the Dallas legal market disagrees with you.


Every lawyer I've talked to in Dallas disagrees with the idea of SMU>UT in Dallas. I'll take their word and the actual data over another fellow 0L.

Can we get Betasteve in here to provide some insight?

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PDaddy
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby PDaddy » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:07 am

ec2xs wrote:I'm sure a Harvard or Yale degree takes you far, but SMU has the clamps down on Dallas, from everything I've been told. The rest of the state is UT.


UT or UH (for Houston)

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RVP11
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:09 am

kalvano wrote:Show me the data that says a UPenn or Berkley or Cornell grad in the top 25% of his class has a better shot at Dallas Biglaw than a person in a similar position at SMU.


Show me the data that says a HLS 2L at median has a better shot at San Diego BigLaw than a USD 2L at median. That can't be done, either, but you better believe it's true.

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RVP11
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Re: Best lawl skool for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:10 am

PDaddy wrote:
ec2xs wrote:I'm sure a Harvard or Yale degree takes you far, but SMU has the clamps down on Dallas, from everything I've been told. The rest of the state is UT.


UT or UH (for Houston)


UT over every non-T14 for every city in Texas.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:14 am

kalvano wrote: Like I said, you're kind of an idiot.

kalvano wrote:TBF, you're still an idiot.

DoubleChecks wrote:ps - it isnt a very effective insult when you call me an idiot since i clearly know im not one. it'd be like calling a skinny guy fat in an inflammatory manner.

kalvano wrote:You know what they say about insane people...


Sorry, but this had to be pointed out:

kalvano

TLS Profile Information - The TLS Box and TLS Stats
Highest LSAT: 164
GPA: 3.5
LSDAS GPA: 3.3

DoubleChecks

TLS Profile Information - The TLS Box and TLS Stats
TLS Box: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/DoubleChecks
Highest LSAT: 175
GPA: 4.0
LSDAS GPA: 4.0


Insult fail.

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RVP11
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby RVP11 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:17 am

ITT: Kalvano takes on smarter people and gets pwned by several.

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kalvano
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Re: Best Law School for Texas?

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:18 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:Insult fail.


I was waiting for that.

I've fired people smarter than he thinks he is.

Just because you test better doesn't mean you're smart.
Last edited by kalvano on Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.




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