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whodatis
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Postby whodatis » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:58 pm

...............................
Last edited by whodatis on Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:01 pm

No, not at all. Do whatever you want. What the fuck do I care?

whodatis
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby whodatis » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:02 pm

Kobe_Teeth wrote:No, not at all. Do whatever you want. What the fuck do I care?

then why did u respond

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:06 pm

Because its a pointless post. I was trying to subtly imply that I thought your post was pointless.

If you don't want to be a lawyer, don't.
If you want to be a programmer, go program.

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pu_golf88
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby pu_golf88 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:08 pm

Programmers are in high demand and if you're looking for money and plenty of job opportunities it may work for you. Word of caution... if you plan to get anywhere a BS is highly recommended or you can at least get an MS. As someone who does a lot of programming, it's entertaining but I don't think you're attitude really suits it.

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:14 pm

You raise some valid points. But I think those who have actually been to law school would be to testify that lawyers don't have "skill." You have to remember, the computer science (I was a computer science major + phil + poly sci) market is extremely congested; good programmers are a dime a dozen.

Having gone through some of the basics of programming (python, C, java, 'scheme', etc.), I know for a fact that these programming skills can be developed, not necessarily with ease, through lots of practice coupled with a logical mind. One of my professors who used to work at a software company claimed that his best programmer was a philosophy PhD who had no formal training in computer science.

I think you should select the "programmers" path because you're interested in it, instead of finding reasons to discredit law as a skill-based profession. My computer science professor once showed this film to us in class; it was actually a scene where a law professor would talk about the socratic method, and the last statement is "i'll have you thinking like a lawyer [computer programmer]". My professor dubbed the last statement as "computer programmer" in order to illustrate the fact that learning languages is the easy part; it's essential that you develop the skills to think like a computer programmer. Same goes for the lawyer; we are trained to think like lawyers. This is probably why the philosophy PhD. was able to excel; because he was able to think like a programmer after familiarizing himself with the languages.

In this light (despite my terrible rhetoric), lawyers, programmers, and doctors are actually very similar.

Lawyer --> Apply laws
Doctor --> Apply appropriate treatment
Programmer--> Apply language to produce algorithms

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englawyer
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby englawyer » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:15 pm

i would advocate that you try programming and see if you like it. if not goto law school. I worked in the field for a few years, so please feel free to PM me if you'd like. here are the downsides of that career path from my perspective:


-salary cap. programmers seldom make above mid 100's, at least when "working for someone else" (startup companies are another better option)

-outsourcing threat. programming can be and is outsourced regularly.

-lack of power/respect at work. you can usually earn a decent salary but you will never be the business person, banker, lawyer, etc. that are doing the wheeling and dealing. you will be in a back-office somewhere implementing someone else's brilliant idea

-lack of respect in society. you will be branded as "nerd" in social situations.

-age-ism. companies tend to plow through a generation of programmers, then let them go and hire the next generation of young'uns that know the latest tech and are willing to work cheaper. a programmer laid off in his/her 40's may have a tough time re-entering the market.

-fast half-life of skills. you learn this generation of tech which will be replaced within a few years (ex programming languages)

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T14_Scholly
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby T14_Scholly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:18 pm

whodatis wrote: I wanted to become a lawyer for the money, 160k seemed badass...


I'll bet that's uncommon on TLS.

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CG614
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby CG614 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:19 pm

whodatis wrote:So I've been accepted into some law schools(T10) but have yet to accept any offers. I wanted to become a lawyer for the money, 160k seemed badass....aside from being a history and literature buff, i don't really care about law that much.

So ruminating over my future career over and over I find the life and job of a lawyer something that i don't want to do (80+hrs, cuthroat atmosphere...a lot of douchebags)

The way it looks to me now, lawyers don't really have a skill and in a bad economy a laid off lawyer is helpless comparatively. The high salary of big law seems to come from the amount of work, not necessarily the ability or skill of a lawyer, while a doctor gets paid a lot for his/her skill. So a lawyer's skill seems to be based more on intangible social skills, and relies on those to find success one entrenched in their career.

I would much prefer to be in a situation where I have a marketable skill, where i can control my employment situation better....and where my job success is based more on quantifiable skills than ability to persuade, schmooze etc

so i'm now thinking about becomming a programmer. I don't have much experience with programming, but math/logic was always my strong point, and its nothing beyond me.....my only problem will be not having a bs

I'd prefer to start at 50k, working normal hours with the upside to develop the skills of getting a higher salary or starting my own company and maybe gettin a jd part time just so that i don't waste my lsat score

Obviously i don't expect TLSers to know much about programming jobs, and I'm not trying to belittle the legal profession, just stating that it doesn't seem suited to my strengths

so would i be a fool to do this???????



This is what I read: " I want everyone to know that I got a really good LSAT score and made it into a top ten school. I also want to let them know that their careers are going to suck and I will be better off as a programmer. I don't care about any validation, I am pretty much only posting this to brag about my LSAT score."

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EdmundBurke23
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby EdmundBurke23 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:20 pm

englawyer wrote:
-age-ism. companies tend to plow through a generation of programmers, then let them go and hire the next generation of young'uns that know the latest tech and are willing to work cheaper. a programmer laid off in his/her 40's may have a tough time re-entering the market.

-fast half-life of skills. you learn this generation of tech which will be replaced within a few years (ex programming languages)


+1

-This is what I meant by the field being congested.

-This is why lawyers and programmers are essentially the same. Laws, just like program languages, change. All that you're left with is the skills (thinking like a lawyer/programmer).

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:24 pm

LOL at the previous post (well, it's a few above now).

1. OP, programmers are idiots if they are employed, not contracted.
2. an average rate for a contractor with ~5 years of experience is $60/hour, and this is considered cheap. Usually they make much more depending on the languages and systems. Programmers who are good at some more rare stuff bill at ~100/hour easily.
3. if you raise in your career as a programmer a reach PM level, in normal economy you can bill even ~200+/hour again depending on your skills.

If money is your main concern here, I don't see why you'd not want to seriously consider alternate "career" path.

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cardnal124
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby cardnal124 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:28 pm

whodatis wrote:I find the life and job of a lawyer something that i don't want to do (80+hrs, cuthroat atmosphere...a lot of douchebags)


If you go to law school you will be douchier than the rest of the douchebags there because all you will do is bitch and moan like a 16 year old girl on her period (which you already did on this post).

If you don't want to be a lawyer, don't go to law school. Seriously, people that do well enough to get into T10 are this fucking stupid?

r6_philly
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:31 pm

EdmundBurke23 wrote:You raise some valid points. But I think those who have actually been to law school would be to testify that lawyers don't have "skill." You have to remember, the computer science (I was a computer science major + phil + poly sci) market is extremely congested; good programmers are a dime a dozen.


Competent programmers are dime a dozen. Great programmers are hard to come by. More below.

Lawyer --> Apply laws
Doctor --> Apply appropriate treatment
Programmer--> Apply language to produce algorithms


The real talented people, lawyer, doctor and programmer are able to produce things without a prescribed procedure. Meaning able to come up with a solution when none is available. If you want to make $60k coding what others tell you to code, then sure. But you may not like it. It will take talent to rise above, like any other profession, and I am not sure if everyone understand what it means to be a mindless programmer drone.

So ruminating over my future career over and over I find the life and job of a lawyer something that i don't want to do (80+hrs, cuthroat atmosphere...a lot of douchebags)


No you will be doing 50-60+ hours but on call 24/7. And the lots of dougebags are your bosses with MIS degrees.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:33 pm

cardnal124 wrote:
whodatis wrote:I find the life and job of a lawyer something that i don't want to do (80+hrs, cuthroat atmosphere...a lot of douchebags)


If you go to law school you will be douchier than the rest of the douchebags there because all you will do is bitch and moan like a 16 year old girl on her period (which you already did on this post).

If you don't want to be a lawyer, don't go to law school. Seriously, people that do well enough to get into T10 are this fucking stupid?



This. What I was getting at...thank you.

r6_philly
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:37 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:LOL at the previous post (well, it's a few above now).

1. OP, programmers are idiots if they are employed, not contracted.
2. an average rate for a contractor with ~5 years of experience is $60/hour, and this is considered cheap. Usually they make much more depending on the languages and systems. Programmers who are good at some more rare stuff bill at ~100/hour easily.
3. if you raise in your career as a programmer a reach PM level, in normal economy you can bill even ~200+/hour again depending on your skills.

If money is your main concern here, I don't see why you'd not want to seriously consider alternate "career" path.


1. if you are contracted, you should remember the 15.6% self-employment tax so the salary figure are a bit inflated, plus you have no health insurance, benefits and unemployment benefits, and vacation/sick days.

2. I haven't seen anything over 100/hr for a long time, although it was dime a dozen about 10 years ago. I don't know how many people will actually get past 100/hr now a days because there are much cheaper options that can do just as good coding. Designing you can get big money but jobs are not as plenty as implementing.


3. as much as I didn't want to I was looking at some programming jobs and realistically I am looking at $130-150k for a lead/management level. You may well get close to 100/hr consulting but those are usually short term, and you have to prove that you are a superstar.

Disclaimer: these are not NYC money, but then 200k in nyc is about 120 in philly.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:46 pm

r6_philly wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:LOL at the previous post (well, it's a few above now).

1. OP, programmers are idiots if they are employed, not contracted.
2. an average rate for a contractor with ~5 years of experience is $60/hour, and this is considered cheap. Usually they make much more depending on the languages and systems. Programmers who are good at some more rare stuff bill at ~100/hour easily.
3. if you raise in your career as a programmer a reach PM level, in normal economy you can bill even ~200+/hour again depending on your skills.

If money is your main concern here, I don't see why you'd not want to seriously consider alternate "career" path.


1. if you are contracted, you should remember the 15.6% self-employment tax so the salary figure are a bit inflated, plus you have no health insurance, benefits and unemployment benefits, and vacation/sick days.


It should be less than 15%, though, I'm not sure about it. On the other hand, a lot of contractors get contract assignments under w2, and make really good money. There are Java developers billing ~90/hour under w2 in this economy, and ~90 for Java is considered high as far as I know.

As for the Health insurance, it's quite cheap. You can get a decent individual insurance for ~2K/year

heyguys
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby heyguys » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:49 pm

My only piece of advice is that if you have ANY doubts about law school, save yourself a ton of grief and don't go.

r6_philly
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:51 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
It should be less than 15%, though, I'm not sure about it. On the other hand, a lot of contractors get contract assignments under w2, and make really good money. There are Java developers billing ~90/hour under w2 in this economy, and ~90 for Java is considered high as far as I know.

As for the Health insurance, it's quite cheap. You can get a decent individual insurance for ~2K/year


It's 15.6%. And you get audited. I get called 3 times a day by recruiters but I rather teach in a college for 50k. (roughly equals to about $70k counting lower taxes, benefits from a family of 4 and the lack of stress).

edit: lack of stress itself, to me, is worth about $50k.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:54 pm

r6_philly wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
It should be less than 15%, though, I'm not sure about it. On the other hand, a lot of contractors get contract assignments under w2, and make really good money. There are Java developers billing ~90/hour under w2 in this economy, and ~90 for Java is considered high as far as I know.

As for the Health insurance, it's quite cheap. You can get a decent individual insurance for ~2K/year


It's 15.6%. And you get audited. I get called 3 times a day by recruiters but I rather teach in a college for 50k. (roughly equals to about $70k counting lower taxes, benefits from a family of 4 and the lack of stress).

edit: lack of stress itself, to me, is worth about $50k.


Why don't you just get employed for something close to $100K instead of teaching?

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cardnal124
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby cardnal124 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:56 pm

r6_philly wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
It should be less than 15%, though, I'm not sure about it. On the other hand, a lot of contractors get contract assignments under w2, and make really good money. There are Java developers billing ~90/hour under w2 in this economy, and ~90 for Java is considered high as far as I know.

As for the Health insurance, it's quite cheap. You can get a decent individual insurance for ~2K/year


It's 15.6%. And you get audited. I get called 3 times a day by recruiters but I rather teach in a college for 50k. (roughly equals to about $70k counting lower taxes, benefits from a family of 4 and the lack of stress).

edit: lack of stress itself, to me, is worth about $50k.


15.6% stated rate. 7.35% is a deductible business expense so in effect you don't pay all of it. So the true cost of it is 7.35% + (7.35% * [1 - t]) where t is your marginal tax rate.

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TheLuckyOne
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby TheLuckyOne » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:58 pm

cardnal124 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
It should be less than 15%, though, I'm not sure about it. On the other hand, a lot of contractors get contract assignments under w2, and make really good money. There are Java developers billing ~90/hour under w2 in this economy, and ~90 for Java is considered high as far as I know.

As for the Health insurance, it's quite cheap. You can get a decent individual insurance for ~2K/year


It's 15.6%. And you get audited. I get called 3 times a day by recruiters but I rather teach in a college for 50k. (roughly equals to about $70k counting lower taxes, benefits from a family of 4 and the lack of stress).

edit: lack of stress itself, to me, is worth about $50k.


15.6% stated rate. 7.35% is a deductible business expense so in effect you don't pay all of it. So the true cost of it is 7.35% + (7.35% * [1 - t]) where t is your marginal tax rate.


I though it should be no more than 7-8%. Hey, elaborate on that because I'm having trouble deciphering it.

r6_philly
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:59 pm

cardnal124 wrote:
15.6% stated rate. 7.35% is a deductible business expense so in effect you don't pay all of it. So the true cost of it is 7.35% + (7.35% * [1 - t]) where t is your marginal tax rate.


wrong. You don't pay income tax on the 7.35%. So if your tax bracket is 15% you don't pay 15% on the 7.35% which is 1.10% so you really paying 14.5% (if you are in the 15% bracket).

SE tax come after the income tax/credit calculation so you can offset it by credits, you can only off set it by payments so you will pay it.

r6_philly
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:01 pm

SE tax goes on line 56 which is AFTER exemptions and deductions. You WILL have to calculate the face amount of the SE tax in what you owe.

Deduction != credit.

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cardnal124
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby cardnal124 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:02 pm

TheLuckyOne wrote:
cardnal124 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
TheLuckyOne wrote:
It should be less than 15%, though, I'm not sure about it. On the other hand, a lot of contractors get contract assignments under w2, and make really good money. There are Java developers billing ~90/hour under w2 in this economy, and ~90 for Java is considered high as far as I know.

As for the Health insurance, it's quite cheap. You can get a decent individual insurance for ~2K/year


It's 15.6%. And you get audited. I get called 3 times a day by recruiters but I rather teach in a college for 50k. (roughly equals to about $70k counting lower taxes, benefits from a family of 4 and the lack of stress).

edit: lack of stress itself, to me, is worth about $50k.


15.6% stated rate. 7.35% is a deductible business expense so in effect you don't pay all of it. So the true cost of it is 7.35% + (7.35% * [1 - t]) where t is your marginal tax rate.


I though it should be no more than 7-8%. Hey, elaborate on that because I'm having trouble deciphering it.



It should be much more than 7-8%. Highest marginal tax rate currently is 35%. If that's your tax rate, then your FICA taxes are 7.35% (the amount you cannot deduct) + (7.35% * [1 - .35])

= 7.35% + 4.78% = 12.13% effective rate for FICA, not 15.6% as is the stated rate.

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cardnal124
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Re: Forget law school....become a programmer?????

Postby cardnal124 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:04 pm

r6_philly wrote:SE tax goes on line 56 which is AFTER exemptions and deductions. You WILL have to calculate the face amount of the SE tax in what you owe.

Deduction != credit.


Yes, you will have to calculate it. Then deduct from it the tax savings. Which is the same thing.

No a deduction <> a credit. Thats why you have to take 7.35% * (1-t) rather than just ignoring the 7.35%




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