Absolute Bottom of the Class...

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smalltown
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby smalltown » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:15 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:There are a few people around you can't help but pick out as probable bottom of the class. Generally these are the people who consistently bring up irrelevant stuff in class. People who clearly don't get what law school is about.


Unfortunately, this is true. But don't be a dick about it. Then you're asking for that come back on you. Just keep in it in your back pocket for those times when you feel like the dumbest person on the planet. And, for most of us, those days do come at some point.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:20 pm

Renzo wrote:I know someone who claims to be pretty near the bottom. They're plenty smart and studious, but apparently not very good at writing exam answers.


It's this. At least among my own classmates, I don't even know that there's a correlation between intelligence and GPA. Most of us had similar entering credentials. I can't explain much about what happened this semester, to me or to the people who've told me they are happy or unhappy with their grades. I spent so much time in abject terror that I'd be at the absolute bottom of the class, and now I have no idea WTF I'm supposed to think. I didn't change; my classmates didn't change, though the curve may have changed us.

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najumobi
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby najumobi » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:22 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Renzo wrote:I know someone who claims to be pretty near the bottom. They're plenty smart and studious, but apparently not very good at writing exam answers.


Yep. There's the answer. Being good at writing exam answers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being studious >>>>> being "intelligent."

There are a few people around you can't help but pick out as probable bottom of the class. Generally these are the people who consistently bring up irrelevant stuff in class. People who clearly don't get what law school is about.
what's your characterization of what law school is about?

Renzo
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby Renzo » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:20 am

najumobi wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
Renzo wrote:I know someone who claims to be pretty near the bottom. They're plenty smart and studious, but apparently not very good at writing exam answers.


Yep. There's the answer. Being good at writing exam answers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being studious >>>>> being "intelligent."

There are a few people around you can't help but pick out as probable bottom of the class. Generally these are the people who consistently bring up irrelevant stuff in class. People who clearly don't get what law school is about.
what's your characterization of what law school is about?
It's easier to say what it's not about. Like saying, "I can't explain it, (whatever rule) is just unfair!" Or changing the facts of professor's hypos to avoid the issue they are trying to get you to address.

washed out
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby washed out » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:14 am

Renzo wrote:Or changing the facts of professor's hypos to avoid the issue they are trying to get you to address.


Image

I am not making any sense. None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No. Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

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rayiner
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby rayiner » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:01 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
Renzo wrote:I know someone who claims to be pretty near the bottom. They're plenty smart and studious, but apparently not very good at writing exam answers.


It's this. At least among my own classmates, I don't even know that there's a correlation between intelligence and GPA. Most of us had similar entering credentials. I can't explain much about what happened this semester, to me or to the people who've told me they are happy or unhappy with their grades. I spent so much time in abject terror that I'd be at the absolute bottom of the class, and now I have no idea WTF I'm supposed to think. I didn't change; my classmates didn't change, though the curve may have changed us.


Do you think there is a major difference in genetic ability between Olympic sprinters in a race? Aside from the Hussain Bolts, it's all a matter of execution. As for what you're supposed to think: don't define yourself by grades, numbers, etc. Getting good grades just means you executed well. That's great - life is all about execution - but what it means starts and ends there.

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mpasi
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby mpasi » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:24 pm

sudoku wrote:Image


FAIL




City workers opened the grate and got the other four out.

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Doritos
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby Doritos » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm

mpasi, if only that were true. I heard they got stuck down there and someone dumped some toxic waste down the sewer. Well the ducks found their way to it the same time a group of alligators did and well...this happened...

Image

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Kohinoor
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby Kohinoor » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:28 pm

mpasi wrote:
sudoku wrote:[img]
FAIL




City workers opened the grate and got the other four out.

They say they were delicious.

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traehekat
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby traehekat » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:30 pm

Being a 0L I can't really say for sure, but I would bet that someone at the bottom of their class at UVA or Duke would still be near the bottom at a T2, even T3. From everything I gather, being successful in law school is all about preparing for the final exam. If you don't know how to do this, then you aren't going to be very successful at any school, regardless of rank.

My plan from day one of law school is to focus on the exams.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby Kohinoor » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:37 pm

traehekat wrote:Being a 0L I can't really say[strike]for sure, but I would bet that someone at the bottom of their class at UVA or Duke would still be near the bottom at a T2, even T3. From everything I gather, being successful in law school is all about preparing for the final exam. If you don't know how to do this, then you aren't going to be very successful at any school, regardless of rank.

My plan from day one of law school is to focus on the exams.[/strike]

You could have stopped there.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:39 pm

rayiner wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Renzo wrote:I know someone who claims to be pretty near the bottom. They're plenty smart and studious, but apparently not very good at writing exam answers.


It's this. At least among my own classmates, I don't even know that there's a correlation between intelligence and GPA. Most of us had similar entering credentials. I can't explain much about what happened this semester, to me or to the people who've told me they are happy or unhappy with their grades. I spent so much time in abject terror that I'd be at the absolute bottom of the class, and now I have no idea WTF I'm supposed to think. I didn't change; my classmates didn't change, though the curve may have changed us.


Do you think there is a major difference in genetic ability between Olympic sprinters in a race? Aside from the Hussain Bolts, it's all a matter of execution. As for what you're supposed to think: don't define yourself by grades, numbers, etc. Getting good grades just means you executed well. That's great - life is all about execution - but what it means starts and ends there.


I wish I had your eloquence, and your perspective. I know you must be happy, but you never let the numbers define you. I never thought of myself as anything but a string of numbers. :oops: I tried to help my classmates and do my best, but worrying about grades took over my life. I still feel trapped and panicked.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby prezidentv8 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:42 pm

Embrace the randomness of law school. Be one with it. Own the randomness.

/zen

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traehekat
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby traehekat » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:44 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
traehekat wrote:Being a 0L I can't really say[strike]for sure, but I would bet that someone at the bottom of their class at UVA or Duke would still be near the bottom at a T2, even T3. From everything I gather, being successful in law school is all about preparing for the final exam. If you don't know how to do this, then you aren't going to be very successful at any school, regardless of rank.

My plan from day one of law school is to focus on the exams.[/strike]

You could have stopped there.


What if we pretend I'm NOT a 0L - still not TCR? :P

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prezidentv8
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby prezidentv8 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:45 pm

washed out wrote:
Renzo wrote:Or changing the facts of professor's hypos to avoid the issue they are trying to get you to address.


Image

I am not making any sense. None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No. Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.


brilliant

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Kohinoor
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:14 am

traehekat wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
traehekat wrote:Being a 0L I can't really say[strike]for sure, but I would bet that someone at the bottom of their class at UVA or Duke would still be near the bottom at a T2, even T3. From everything I gather, being successful in law school is all about preparing for the final exam. If you don't know how to do this, then you aren't going to be very successful at any school, regardless of rank.

My plan from day one of law school is to focus on the exams.[/strike]

You could have stopped there.


What if we pretend I'm NOT a 0L - still not TCR? :P

If we pretend you're not a 0L, then you're still ignoring what vanwinkle pointed out earlier. It only takes one below median grade to drop you to the bottom of the class. Thus, someone can have done the requisite prep and still be below median. In fact, the curve assures that this will take place. While it is comforting to think that the kids at the bottom didn't 'get it', it's also naive.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:14 am

Kohinoor wrote:
traehekat wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
traehekat wrote:Being a 0L I can't really say[strike]for sure, but I would bet that someone at the bottom of their class at UVA or Duke would still be near the bottom at a T2, even T3. From everything I gather, being successful in law school is all about preparing for the final exam. If you don't know how to do this, then you aren't going to be very successful at any school, regardless of rank.

My plan from day one of law school is to focus on the exams.[/strike]

You could have stopped there.


What if we pretend I'm NOT a 0L - still not TCR? :P

If we pretend you're not a 0L, then you're still ignoring what vanwinkle pointed out earlier. It only takes one below median grade to drop you to the bottom of the class. Thus, someone can have done the requisite prep and still be below median. In fact, the curve assures that this will take place. While it is comforting to think that the kids at the bottom didn't 'get it', it's also naive.


Kohinoor speaks truth.

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traehekat
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby traehekat » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:15 am

Kohinoor wrote:
traehekat wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
traehekat wrote:Being a 0L I can't really say[strike]for sure, but I would bet that someone at the bottom of their class at UVA or Duke would still be near the bottom at a T2, even T3. From everything I gather, being successful in law school is all about preparing for the final exam. If you don't know how to do this, then you aren't going to be very successful at any school, regardless of rank.

My plan from day one of law school is to focus on the exams.[/strike]

You could have stopped there.


What if we pretend I'm NOT a 0L - still not TCR? :P

If we pretend you're not a 0L, then you're still ignoring what vanwinkle pointed out earlier. It only takes one below median grade to drop you to the bottom of the class. Thus, someone can have done the requisite prep and still be below median. In fact, the curve assures that this will take place. While it is comforting to think that the kids at the bottom didn't 'get it', it's also naive.


Well what is it then, just a crapshoot? Nature ability? Professor bias? I understand that one below median grade puts you towards the bottom of your class (assuming the rest of your grades are right at median), and yes that is a scary thought, but there has to be something that is distinguishing your exam answers from those at the top of the class.

I admit I may be plain ignorant when I say this, but I have to hope that if one studies a lot, studies correctly, and doesn't choke on the exam, they will reap the benefits. My understanding is that almost everyone in law school does a fair amount of studying, but the majority (of course there are exceptions) of students who find themselves below median either didn't study CORRECTLY or choked during the test. Am I wrong?

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prezidentv8
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:23 am

I don't know. The main problem to me is that I'm still not sure how to study for this stuff. Just about everything I am doing is, to some extent, guesswork. Educated guesswork to a degree, but mostly I'm still guessing. Here's how I think it works: If you study hard and study correctly and do everything you think you're supposed to do, plus a bunch more, then your grade will be higher than it would have been had you not done so, probably, but still pretty random. On the other hand, if you don't study, you'll probably be on the bottom. I'd assume that out-studying your classmates could reduce the randomness to a degree, but I don't know how you'd out-study your classmates if you don't know how to study and they're studying at least as much as you and are about as smart or smarter than you.

I'm also pretty sure that it is, in fact, natural ability, professor bias/preferences, and a little luck that determines at least a large portion of an individual grade. What makes it weirder is that nobody around you seems to be able to articulate what makes some answers better than others. I sure don't know. I guess figuring it out is really what is tested.

Edit: I should clarify part of the "figuring it out." Recently one prof of mine said "state the law, you'll get some points for it," while another said "don't state the law, I already know the law." That's the kind of stuff to figure out.
Last edited by prezidentv8 on Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

showNprove
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby showNprove » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:28 am

traehekat wrote:Well what is it then, just a crapshoot? Nature ability? Professor bias? I understand that one below median grade puts you towards the bottom of your class (assuming the rest of your grades are right at median), and yes that is a scary thought, but there has to be something that is distinguishing your exam answers from those at the top of the class.

I admit I may be plain ignorant when I say this, but I have to hope that if one studies a lot, studies correctly, and doesn't choke on the exam, they will reap the benefits. My understanding is that almost everyone in law school does a fair amount of studying, but the majority (of course there are exceptions) of students who find themselves below median either didn't study CORRECTLY or choked during the test. Am I wrong?

I just reviewed a fall exam with a professor, and he told me that I did solid [Grade X] work -- not that I was on the cusp of [Grade X] and barely missed it, but that my exam was [Grade X] work. However, he gave me [Grade X - 1] because the curve only allowed for so many [Grade X's] and he needed to choose which exam wouldn't get it.

leron
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby leron » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:39 am

showNprove wrote:I just reviewed a fall exam with a professor, and he told me that I did solid [Grade X] work -- not that I was on the cusp of [Grade X] and barely missed it, but that my exam was [Grade X] work. However, he gave me [Grade X - 1] because the curve only allowed for so many [Grade X's] and he needed to choose which exam wouldn't get it.


what does this really mean? it means nothing. you defined what a curved test is.

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traehekat
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby traehekat » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:40 am

showNprove wrote:
traehekat wrote:Well what is it then, just a crapshoot? Nature ability? Professor bias? I understand that one below median grade puts you towards the bottom of your class (assuming the rest of your grades are right at median), and yes that is a scary thought, but there has to be something that is distinguishing your exam answers from those at the top of the class.

I admit I may be plain ignorant when I say this, but I have to hope that if one studies a lot, studies correctly, and doesn't choke on the exam, they will reap the benefits. My understanding is that almost everyone in law school does a fair amount of studying, but the majority (of course there are exceptions) of students who find themselves below median either didn't study CORRECTLY or choked during the test. Am I wrong?

I just reviewed a fall exam with a professor, and he told me that I did solid [Grade X] work -- not that I was on the cusp of [Grade X] and barely missed it, but that my exam was [Grade X] work. However, he gave me [Grade X - 1] because the curve only allowed for so many [Grade X's] and he needed to choose which exam wouldn't get it.


Are you satisfied with this explanation? Did he elaborate on perhaps what a better answer would have looked like? I imagine it is frustrating to know that you should of perhaps received a higher grade but because of the curve you were bumped down, but do you feel like it was just a matter of luck that you were the one that was bumped down, or do you feel as if you were 'outperformed' so to speak by those who weren't bumped down?

For what its worth, it DOES seem like there is a very fine line between grades, and a number of things (perhaps even out of your control) can affect it. Kind of scary.

legends159
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby legends159 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:40 am

take a lot of practice tests and try to figure out what your professor will give max points to. Just keep looking through the model answers and the question structure and try to psycho-analyze your professor. Think about it, if your professor grades on a checklist and is flying through the answers at a million mph, you will need to have certain key word or phrases to catch their attention and get points. figure out what those key words or phrases are.

taking exams is really like a game. Most people are very prepared for it and the difference between median and a top score are subtle differences like writing ability and words and phrases that catch their attention.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:41 am

leron wrote:
showNprove wrote:I just reviewed a fall exam with a professor, and he told me that I did solid [Grade X] work -- not that I was on the cusp of [Grade X] and barely missed it, but that my exam was [Grade X] work. However, he gave me [Grade X - 1] because the curve only allowed for so many [Grade X's] and he needed to choose which exam wouldn't get it.


what does this really mean? it means nothing. you defined what a curved test is.


I think he's just pointing out how curves can screw ya

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Kohinoor
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Re: Absolute Bottom of the Class...

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:41 am

leron wrote:
showNprove wrote:I just reviewed a fall exam with a professor, and he told me that I did solid [Grade X] work -- not that I was on the cusp of [Grade X] and barely missed it, but that my exam was [Grade X] work. However, he gave me [Grade X - 1] because the curve only allowed for so many [Grade X's] and he needed to choose which exam wouldn't get it.


what does this really mean? it means nothing. you defined what a curved test is.

It means that at a T14, you can't assume that the B students were creating shitty work product that would have been bottom of the class at a T2.




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