Law School Debt Free

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:29 pm

I don't think anyone's mentioned GW yet. They have a binding ED program that comes with a full tuition scholarship if admitted; I don't know exactly what the cut off is for getting that (it's pretty high), but I think you'd have a shot.

If you don't want to be locked in, you can RD there and hope for one of their $105K scholarships ($30k/year + free housing for the first year). That won't be a full ride, but its close. If deferred from ED to RD, you'd be in consideration for the $105k, and it wouldn't be binding (plus I'd think you'd have a very good shot at one of those). Worth an application, I'd think.

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billyez
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby billyez » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:50 pm

With numbers like that, early decision shouldn't even be considered by the OP. I think the best advice given here was to apply to a wide breadth of schools. Is there a specific group of schools that you want to attend or a specific place you want to work aftr law school?

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pinkzeppelin
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby pinkzeppelin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:51 am

englawyer wrote:
heyguys wrote:Anyone else disheartened by the fact that a 4.0 engineering student from GT is going to waste away for 3 years in law school when he could be going out doing something useful for the world? :D .


-1. OP should not be pressured into a career because he shows an aptitude in it. the study of engineering is very different than the practice.

in fact, i think some of the best engineers are quite frankly lousy in school; they have an aptitude for designing devices and visualizing what could be, but can't necessarily do the mathematical analysis found in the courses.

here are his primary options in aerospace engineering.

#1. go to a PhD program. 10 people enter each yr, 1 graduates each yr. out of the graduates, a small percentage will get "post docs". the rest will be off to defense contractors, where they will design weapons all day (the only companies that really care about a Ph.D. in aerospace engineering). if he manages to secure the post-doc after a 5 yr slog, he will then compete for academia positions where hundreds of candidates apply for each job. when he realizes that doesn't work out, he will head back to defense contracting.

#2. join a defense contractor immediately. engineer = cube farm job for the most part. most folk are lifers who put in their 9-5, and realize that most of the crap you are working on is a waste anyway, and will be canceled with the next defense budget. more money will be funneled into the next useless tech project.

#3. go work for a "prestigious" govt agency like NASA. woohoo, you get to design SPACESHIPS! if by spaceships you mean doing a computational thermodynamic analysis of the lower-left plate. oh btw, you won't be paid all that much, and the atmosphere is for the most part like defense contractors (see #2).

i don't mean to be abrasive or argumentative, but engineering has some major downsides that many might not know about. OP might realize these trade-offs now and realize that law or some other field better suits his career desires.


.
Last edited by pinkzeppelin on Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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englawyer
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby englawyer » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:56 am

nice analysis pinkzeppelin! if i was as perceptive as you are in undergrad, the last few years of my life would have been much different :wink:

eudaimondaimon
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby eudaimondaimon » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:20 am

pinkzeppelin wrote:My co-op right now is with a defense contractor. First of all, the work isn't exciting or challenging in the least except for when there's a time crunch, and then it is challenging (and stressful!) for the wrong reasons. Also, defense is a cesspool of waste and inefficiency. Entire billion-dollar initiatives are canceled so that new future billion-dollar initiatives can be canceled 5 years later. I've already decided that the amount we spend on the military industrial complex is obscene and immoral, so working in that industry is really not an option for me, and practically every aerospace engineering job has defense as its underlying tone.


Good call. You don't wanna end up like this guy.
Image





But might I ask where the extreme aversion to ANY debt at all comes from?

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pinkzeppelin
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby pinkzeppelin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:38 pm

eudaimondaimon wrote:But might I ask where the extreme aversion to ANY debt at all comes from?


.
Last edited by pinkzeppelin on Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

vtoodler
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby vtoodler » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:50 pm

How about working during the summers? Or applying to private scholarships that are not associated with your university?

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pinkzeppelin
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby pinkzeppelin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:53 pm

vtoodler wrote:How about working during the summers? Or applying to private scholarships that are not associated with your university?

I am working during the summers and do plan on working during law school also. The private scholarship idea is good, I hadn't thought of that. Are there any scholarships in particular that come to mind?

jerjon2
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby jerjon2 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:26 pm

pinkzeppelin wrote:At the same time, I feel heyguys pain. Yes, it's disheartening. But the sad realization is: engineering is under respected by society. The lack of respect manifests itself two ways. First: engineers are underpaid. They do the useful projects that actually promote society's welfare, and yet the managers claim most of the spoils. Second: engineers aren't appreciated. We are seen as a means and not an end. Some of the computer companies, like google, are starting to give more intrinsic value to their engineering employees, but I think the sector as a whole is a long way from that. I wish engineers were more respected, because I still want to be an engineer and produce. But I can't ignore that the market and society itself is telling me to become something else. So I'm going into law, where I'm confident I can succeed and get more meaning out of my profession.

Thanks for everyone's help :D


+10000

Another problem I have with engineering is the shit life of graduate students (at least as far as I have observed at GT, I go there too) A lot of professors keep grad students there for years just to get cheap labor and they have them doing so many peripheral projects that have nothing to do with their thesis. I couldn't do that and you kinda need graduate school to be an engineer.

Good luck to you and are you considering patent law? (it more or less between patent litigation and transactional corporate law for me)

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Snwboarder78
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby Snwboarder78 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:38 pm

I think the issue of being kept too long is a problem in a lot of graduate programs. There is generally a lack of jobs after obtaining a PhD. The solution thus far, has been to require people to do a post-doc or 2 or 4 to occupy people's time until some others retire and open up jobs that then go to the person with the highest number of post-docs or that got lucky to discover something really cool. There has been a push to get people into advanced degrees, without a substantial increase in the number of jobs that they can fill and has created a backlog of qualified individuals.

Another thing for the OP to consider is that some schools let you TA courses in your field of study outside the law school. You can then get school paid for and receive a small living stipend.

vtoodler
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby vtoodler » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:30 pm

pinkzeppelin wrote:
vtoodler wrote:How about working during the summers? Or applying to private scholarships that are not associated with your university?

I am working during the summers and do plan on working during law school also. The private scholarship idea is good, I hadn't thought of that. Are there any scholarships in particular that come to mind?


PM me with your email. I've known ever since high school that I wanted to attend law school, so I've been collecting LS scholarships since then. I have about 30 that you might qualify for. Have you also tried fastweb and scholarships.com? With your GPA, you should be a good candidate for those?

vtoodler
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby vtoodler » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:31 pm

Although I'm preparing for law school and the LSAT, I won't be attending law school for about 4-5 years from now. (I just finished college, and I'm taking time off). So, I can email you the stuff that I have.

DanInALionsDen
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby DanInALionsDen » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:45 pm

pinkzeppelin wrote:I've decided I don't want to have any debt when I graduate from law school.

I know most people on here will yell and scream that I should go to the best school I can regardless of cost, but I have a huge aversion to debt, and I don't want to be forced to accept a Big Law job just to pay off my mountain of debt.

So basically my goal is to graduate from the best law school I can without any debt.

Here are my stats:

170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA in Aerospace Engineering at GaTech

Since I'm from Georgia I will definitely be applying to Emory's Woodruff Fellowship and the University of Georgia Law Scholars Program.

What are the best law schools that offer full tuition scholarships to people with stats close to mine?

Thanks!


Sorry if other people have written this, but I don't feel like reading all the posts on here. Do you want to do IP? Are you applying this cycle or next? I think if you apply at the beginning of next cycle to GW you will get a full ride. Since they are ranked third in IP behind Stanford and Berkeley, if that's the route you want to go, it might be a good option. However, if you are interested in IP, you should seriously, seriously consider applying to Stanford. There's no guarantee you'd get in, in fact, the chance is probably slim, even with a 4.0, but if you did, you would be wise to go there, whatever the cost. With IBR and LRAP you won't be forced into Biglaw, and if your focus is IP with a bs in aerospace engineering you can probably get a job doing really interesting and important gov. work. Again, this all hinges on whether or not you'd like to do IP.

jerjon2
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby jerjon2 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:42 pm

Snwboarder78 wrote:I think the issue of being kept too long is a problem in a lot of graduate programs. There is generally a lack of jobs after obtaining a PhD. The solution thus far, has been to require people to do a post-doc or 2 or 4 to occupy people's time until some others retire and open up jobs that then go to the person with the highest number of post-docs or that got lucky to discover something really cool. There has been a push to get people into advanced degrees, without a substantial increase in the number of jobs that they can fill and has created a backlog of qualified individuals.

Another thing for the OP to consider is that some schools let you TA courses in your field of study outside the law school. You can then get school paid for and receive a small living stipend.


I don't think that's necessarily the case with engineering PhD's. There are a lot of high level tech jobs in industry that require a Phd. More so than I think is true with most other disciplines. I think a PhD is less overkill for engineering work than it is for a lot of other disciplines. E.g. intel won't even talk to you about semiconductor fabrication processes without a PhD from what I understand. I can't really comment on other people being held in limbo like that in other disciplines. But i'm not talking about people not graduating because they can't find a job or a decent post doc or even because they've hit a wall with their research. I'm talking about people being forced to do work that isn't their own so that they can have a shot at a thesis defense. I also don't think that post-docs are to occupy people's time until others retire in engineering. I think they exist for those that want to stay in academia to prove that they will have something to contribute research wise before a school takes a chance on them. I'm talking about ECE Phd's specifically btw, I can't begin to comment on the entire engineering field. I just highly doubt that finding work is the problem. A lot of people leave with their master's because their sick of it and have absolutely no trouble finding work.

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js87
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby js87 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:05 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:I don't think anyone's mentioned GW yet. They have a binding ED program that comes with a full tuition scholarship if admitted; I don't know exactly what the cut off is for getting that (it's pretty high), but I think you'd have a shot.

If you don't want to be locked in, you can RD there and hope for one of their $105K scholarships ($30k/year + free housing for the first year). That won't be a full ride, but its close. If deferred from ED to RD, you'd be in consideration for the $105k, and it wouldn't be binding (plus I'd think you'd have a very good shot at one of those). Worth an application, I'd think.


FWIW, I've got a 171 and 3.75 and applied RD to GW. I wrestled with applying ED; I would gladly attend GW with a large scholarship, but hope springs eternal and I didn't want to lock myself in to GW on the off chance that a T6 school accepted me.

I applied nice and early, and GW accepted me with NO scholarship money. I called and emailed to try and negotiate. I even met with the assistant dean of admissions in person to negotiate, as I was in town for the GULC admitted student weekend. No dice. Not a dollar.

It can be a crapshoot sometimes. Fordham, which I think is pretty much a peer school, offered me a very generous merit aid package. Apply to lots and lots of schools in the top 50. You will most likely pick up some full rides, but nothing is ever assured.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby BioEBear2010 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:19 am

englawyer wrote:-1. OP should not be pressured into a career because he shows an aptitude in it. the study of engineering is very different than the practice.

+1 to this.

Anyway, OP, you will be getting many, many fee waivers. Apply to these schools. As another poster recommended, you should apply to a large number of schools. You've obviously taken statistics -- more schools = more options = greater chance at getting a full ride :D

And I don't think that a Hamilton is that unreasonable with those numbers. You can really play up the engineering card, and with well written essays and strong LORs Columbia might be compelled to offer you the award. Definitely apply to NYU, Berkeley (supposedly they have a scholarship-matching program), Michigan, and Duke as well. Also, YHS do not offer merit-based scholarships, but they are very, very good with need. IMO it is worth it to apply and see what they give you.

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Borhas
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby Borhas » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:30 am

pinkzeppelin wrote:
englawyer wrote:
heyguys wrote:Anyone else disheartened by the fact that a 4.0 engineering student from GT is going to waste away for 3 years in law school when he could be going out doing something useful for the world? :D .


-1. OP should not be pressured into a career because he shows an aptitude in it. the study of engineering is very different than the practice.

in fact, i think some of the best engineers are quite frankly lousy in school; they have an aptitude for designing devices and visualizing what could be, but can't necessarily do the mathematical analysis found in the courses.

here are his primary options in aerospace engineering.

#1. go to a PhD program. 10 people enter each yr, 1 graduates each yr. out of the graduates, a small percentage will get "post docs". the rest will be off to defense contractors, where they will design weapons all day (the only companies that really care about a Ph.D. in aerospace engineering). if he manages to secure the post-doc after a 5 yr slog, he will then compete for academia positions where hundreds of candidates apply for each job. when he realizes that doesn't work out, he will head back to defense contracting.

#2. join a defense contractor immediately. engineer = cube farm job for the most part. most folk are lifers who put in their 9-5, and realize that most of the crap you are working on is a waste anyway, and will be canceled with the next defense budget. more money will be funneled into the next useless tech project.

#3. go work for a "prestigious" govt agency like NASA. woohoo, you get to design SPACESHIPS! if by spaceships you mean doing a computational thermodynamic analysis of the lower-left plate. oh btw, you won't be paid all that much, and the atmosphere is for the most part like defense contractors (see #2).

i don't mean to be abrasive or argumentative, but engineering has some major downsides that many might not know about. OP might realize these trade-offs now and realize that law or some other field better suits his career desires.


Englawyer gets it ;)

My co-op right now is with a defense contractor. First of all, the work isn't exciting or challenging in the least except for when there's a time crunch, and then it is challenging (and stressful!) for the wrong reasons. Also, defense is a cesspool of waste and inefficiency. Entire billion-dollar initiatives are canceled so that new future billion-dollar initiatives can be canceled 5 years later. I've already decided that the amount we spend on the military industrial complex is obscene and immoral, so working in that industry is really not an option for me, and practically every aerospace engineering job has defense as its underlying tone.

At the same time, I feel heyguys pain. Yes, it's disheartening. But the sad realization is: engineering is under respected by society. The lack of respect manifests itself two ways. First: engineers are underpaid. They do the useful projects that actually promote society's welfare, and yet the managers claim most of the spoils. Second: engineers aren't appreciated. We are seen as a means and not an end. Some of the computer companies, like google, are starting to give more intrinsic value to their engineering employees, but I think the sector as a whole is a long way from that. I wish engineers were more respected, because I still want to be an engineer and produce. But I can't ignore that the market and society itself is telling me to become something else. So I'm going into law, where I'm confident I can succeed and get more meaning out of my profession.

Justice: thanks for the tip, that 105k scholarship and free room from GW sounds enticing :)

billy: No particular group of schools I want to attend; I pretty much want to go to the most nationally recognized school I can get into where I can get a full scholarship. Right now, I'm leaning towards working in California.

Thanks for everyone's help :D


wow dude, that's fucked up

good luck though!

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Bikeflip
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby Bikeflip » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:51 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:I don't think anyone's mentioned GW yet. They have a binding ED program that comes with a full tuition scholarship if admitted; I don't know exactly what the cut off is for getting that (it's pretty high), but I think you'd have a shot.

If you don't want to be locked in, you can RD there and hope for one of their $105K scholarships ($30k/year + free housing for the first year). That won't be a full ride, but its close. If deferred from ED to RD, you'd be in consideration for the $105k, and it wouldn't be binding (plus I'd think you'd have a very good shot at one of those). Worth an application, I'd think.

I did the numbers on that. After the rest of tuition, fees and other COL expenses, it comes to about 20k/yr, 30k/yr after your 1L housing runs out.

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Notor
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby Notor » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:05 pm

OP should be an engineer

/thread

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Borhas
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Re: Law School Debt Free

Postby Borhas » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:10 pm

Notor wrote:OP should be an engineer

/thread


Engineers play an important role, plus NASA is going places:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/n ... o_approach




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