Hamilton or HLS Forum

[Reverethong]

I'll first acknowledge that I'm extremely fortunate and lucky to be in this position. Given the depth of knowledge of TLS, I figured that people on here could help me think this through.

After LS I'm interested in clerking and then, ideally, doing appellate litigation.

In terms of anything and everything (opportunities, quality of life, short v. long term issues) what are people's thoughts on the Hamilton from Columbia versus HLS financed mainly through loans.

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to respond with their thoughts! It's much appreciated.

[sandy10]

Congrats on the amazing choice you have to make! Debt can be tough, but for appellate/high end lit work Harvard is in another league (noticeably so).

[crazycanuck]

No YLS?

According to your LSN you have a 3.98/180 but didn't apply to yale?

[Kretzy]

Do you want to practice in NYC or another market? If NYC, I'd take the Hamilton. If another market, it may be a tossup (but I'd lean Hamilton).

Disclaimer: I'd take the Darrow at Michigan over HS (not Y), so take what I have to say with that caveat in mind.

[Reverethong]

According to your LSN you have a 3.98/180 but didn't apply to yale?

Yea, I have no interest in attending YLS for a variety of reasons.

Do you want to practice in NYC or another market? If NYC, I'd take the Hamilton. If another market, it may be a tossup (but I'd lean Hamilton).

Disclaimer: I'd take the Darrow at Michigan over HS (not Y), so take what I have to say with that caveat in mind.

Ideally I would be in either NYC or DC...If forced to choose I would probably prefer being in DC.

[Nom Sawyer]

I'll first acknowledge that I'm extremely fortunate and lucky to be in this position. Given the depth of knowledge of TLS, I figured that people on here could help me think this through.

After LS I'm interested in clerking and then, ideally, doing appellate litigation.

In terms of anything and everything (opportunities, quality of life, short v. long term issues) what are people's thoughts on the Hamilton from Columbia versus HLS financed mainly through loans.

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to respond with their thoughts! It's much appreciated.

Difficult decision... I think personally I'd go with Hamilton, because the gap b/w the two isn't enough to give up almost debt free law school. However, you still have to factor in possibility of grants/ higher COL for Columbia, so if the difference drops down to say <100,000 between the schools you have a much tougher choice.

Guess you have to weigh benefits of a HLS degree versus 100,000K over your career. (Disclaimer: this is coming from a person who will probably end up at H because I don't have the numbers for a Hamilton)

[nealric]

I would go for the Hamilton for sure. 200k in debt is not your friend, no matter what you want to do.

[TTH]

Now the night of the decision, you may feel a slight sting, that's pride fuckin with ya. Fuck pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that shit. 'Cause a year from now, when you're kickin' it at Columbia, you're gonna say, "Marcellus Wallace was right."

Take the money. Fuck pride.

Your ass goes down in the fifth.

SAY IT!

[patrickd139]

Now the night of the decision, you may feel a slight sting, that's pride fuckin with ya. Fuck pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that shit. 'Cause a year from now, when you're kickin' it at Columbia, you're gonna say, "Marcellus Wallace was right."

Take the money. Fuck pride.

Your ass goes down in the fifth.

SAY IT!

Not in any way qualified to give advice on this subject, but nicely done with the PF quote. Lesser known role for Ving Rhames: SS agent Duane Stevenson in "Dave."

[ToTransferOrNot]

Unless you have a burning desire to work for Wachtell, or to be a SCOTUS clerk, I honestly can't see turning down a free Columbia law school education. Turning down Harvard hurts, but... seriously, ~150k + saved interest?

That said, DC is the single hardest market to break in to. If you really, REALLY want DC over NYC, Harvard is going to be a safer bet... but still. Columbia is no slouch in DC.

[MellonCollie]

I'm making the same decision, and am leaning Hamilton.

I'm very interested in public service work and debt-free would be amazing.

One valid point that a lot of people bring up is that debt is a 5-15 year concern, whereas HLS is HLS for the rest of your career - but for me, that debt (even under the protection of LIPP) would really hurt my QOL in my mid- to-late 20s (when I really should be enjoying my life as much as possible).

I'm just trying to weigh the financial flexibility against the fact that HLS will give me a better shot at some of the prestigious/selective public sector jobs that I'm interested in.

[Borhas]

that is not a difficult decision, take the money

[vanwinkle]

Now the night of the decision, you may feel a slight sting, that's pride fuckin with ya. Fuck pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that shit. 'Cause a year from now, when you're kickin' it at Columbia, you're gonna say, "Marcellus Wallace was right."

Take the money. Fuck pride.

Your ass goes down in the fifth.

SAY IT!

This is hilarious.

OP, if you wanna clerk, Harvard >>> CLS. Clerking will also help you get appellate litigation work, so it seems like you have an actual reason to turn down the money.

Hell, I'd go to Harvard just because it's Harvard. Y > H, but H > everyone else. CLS giving you a full ride tells you they know this; they're doing everything in their power to keep you from going to the superior school they knew you'd get into.

If you just wanted to go into BigLaw and didn't care that much else, I'd say CLS, but for your particular ambitions: Go big, go H.

[EijiMiyake]

Now the night of the decision, you may feel a slight sting, that's pride fuckin with ya. Fuck pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps. Fight through that shit. 'Cause a year from now, when you're kickin' it at Columbia, you're gonna say, "Marcellus Wallace was right."

Take the money. Fuck pride.

Your ass goes down in the fifth.

SAY IT!

This is hilarious.

OP, if you wanna clerk, Harvard >>> CLS. Clerking will also help you get appellate litigation work, so it seems like you have an actual reason to turn down the money.

Hell, I'd go to Harvard just because it's Harvard. Y > H, but H > everyone else. CLS giving you a full ride tells you they know this; they're doing everything in their power to keep you from going to the superior school they knew you'd get into.

If you just wanted to go into BigLaw and didn't care that much else, I'd say CLS, but for your particular ambitions: Go big, go H.

My impression is that you had to place high at both CLS or HLS to a) be competitive for COA clerkships and b) appellate work. Is this true, and how does it affect the decision?

[vanwinkle]

My impression is that you had to place high at both CLS or HLS to a) be competitive for COA clerkships and b) appellate work. Is this true, and how does it affect the decision?

My impression is that you don't have to place as high at Harvard.

According to lawclerkaddict's 2007 numbers, at Harvard 58 graduates or 10.4% of the class got federal appellate clerkships. At Columbia it was 22 or 5.6%.

That doesn't mean you have to be in the top 10% to get a clerkship either, not all people who had the potential to do so necessarily clerked. (These numbers are a pre-ITE look at clerkship placement, some people who could've done a clerkship just went straight to BigLaw instead.)

Source: http://lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com/

The student bodies at HLS and CLS are not going to be that different at all, and in fact from what I've heard from HLS students, there's almost no difference in intelligence between the groups. It is probably easier to make top 10-15% at HLS than it is to make top 5-10% at CLS.

[lightbulb1986]

.

[MellonCollie]

My impression is that you had to place high at both CLS or HLS to a) be competitive for COA clerkships and b) appellate work. Is this true, and how does it affect the decision?

My impression is that you don't have to place as high at Harvard.

According to lawclerkaddict's 2007 numbers, at Harvard 58 graduates or 10.4% of the class got federal appellate clerkships. At Columbia it was 22 or 5.6%.

That doesn't mean you have to be in the top 10% to get a clerkship either, not all people who had the potential to do so necessarily clerked. (These numbers are a pre-ITE look at clerkship placement, some people who could've done a clerkship just went straight to BigLaw instead.)

Source: http://lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com/

The student bodies at HLS and CLS are not going to be that different at all, and in fact from what I've heard from HLS students, there's almost no difference in intelligence between the groups. It is probably easier to make top 10-15% at HLS than it is to make top 5-10% at CLS.

Do you think that the career centers would open up their records for us? As in, clerks on avg had this class rank, etc. Or is that all confidential?

[Notor]

Is OP not getting any money at HLS?

[vanwinkle]

Do you think that the career centers would open up their records for us? As in, clerks on avg had this class rank, etc. Or is that all confidential?

I don't think they'd be offended by you asking if you told them why, and then they'd tell you whether or not they could reveal that information. They'd probably be willing to share information with you if it's likely to get you to accept attending there, but at worst they'll just tell you they can't give that info out.

[vanwinkle]

Is OP not getting any money at HLS?

HLS only gives need-based scholarships AFAIK, and that might take some time to find out about.

[MellonCollie]

Do you think that the career centers would open up their records for us? As in, clerks on avg had this class rank, etc. Or is that all confidential?

I don't think they'd be offended by you asking if you told them why, and then they'd tell you whether or not they could reveal that information. They'd probably be willing to share information with you if it's likely to get you to accept attending there, but at worst they'll just tell you they can't give that info out.

Thanks, I think I'm going to do that. Don't see how I could make an informed decision otherwise.

[Reverethong]

Is OP not getting any money at HLS?

I'm assuming (and am fairly certain) that if I get any need-grants they will be minimal, and that I'll be financing mainly through loans.


Thank you everyone who has contributed, this is enormously insightful.

[vanwinkle]

Second of all: I would find it almost impossible to turn down the Hamilton, if I were in your shoes.

I find it interesting how there seem to be very few people on the fence about this, it's either "It's obvious you should take the Hamilton" or "It's obvious you should go to Harvard".

[MellonCollie]

Second of all: I would find it almost impossible to turn down the Hamilton, if I were in your shoes.

I find it interesting how there seem to be very few people on the fence about this, it's either "It's obvious you should take the Hamilton" or "It's obvious you should go to Harvard".

Yeah, but I fluctuate between those two poles on an hourly basis as well.

[Kiersten1985]

a. Make a poll
b. You're my hero
c. Leaving CLS debt free would have to be the most amazing thing ever
d. You should apply to Yale and then not go if only to decrease their yield...