Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

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jmaan
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby jmaan » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:19 pm

You can't really compare mbas to jds...u can't even get into a decent MBA program without some real work experience...law schools will take u no matter what as long as u have the numbers and then as long as u have the numbers after law school u can get a job. If it's impossible to get a job right now, it's nearly impossible to get into a good MBA program. This makes the only advanced degree left a jd..everyone knows phd/masters don't get paid and u can't just get up and go to med/dental school so ppl are deciding to do law school. And not everyone is worried about debt cause most kids with the freedom to just decide to go to law school probably have financial freedom in the form of parents...over saturation of the market sucks but what else do u expect right now

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SamSeaborn2016
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby SamSeaborn2016 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:53 pm

Now, granted, I have been out of undergrad since 2003 but I am the only person I know going to law school. I have one friend from high school who went and I occasionally meet lawyers through my current job but I've never really felt that "everyone is applying." Even when I was in undergrad, I rarely heard people discuss law school.

On the flip side, it seems like everyone I knew in undergrad was going into teaching. I know an astonishingly large number of junior high teachers.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby GATORTIM » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:42 pm

Everybody is NOT applying to law school it just appears that way when you spend 8+ hours per day on TLS.

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traehekat
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby traehekat » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:14 pm

GATORTIM wrote:Everybody is NOT applying to law school it just appears that way when you spend 8+ hours per day on TLS.


Hey now, I don't spend eight hours a day on TL - ... wait ... wait ... yeah I do.

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PDaddy
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:38 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
PDaddy wrote:I think most people would be better-off with MBA's, which can actually make you rich (or even "wealthy"), are easier to obtain and are more versatile. Law degrees are not nearly as profitable. And let's be real, that's what most law applicants are after, financial security. Most people who apply to law school would not make good lawyers and do not have the passion for it.


Most MBA's are even more worthless than JD's, if only because at the JD lets someone practice a different career.

If law is T14 or bust, MBA is certainly T20 or bust.


You know...you're right. Just found this link today. MBA's are no get rich tickets, but the potential for earnings sems much higher than for Lawyers. I would still guess that more MBA's make $10M/yr than do JD's, in real numbers and percentages. But the article below puts it into perspective.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... _education


http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/09 ... n_id=yahoo

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PDaddy
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:45 pm

jmaan wrote:You can't really compare mbas to jds...u can't even get into a decent MBA program without some real work experience...law schools will take u no matter what as long as u have the numbers and then as long as u have the numbers after law school u can get a job. If it's impossible to get a job right now, it's nearly impossible to get into a good MBA program. This makes the only advanced degree left a jd..everyone knows phd/masters don't get paid and u can't just get up and go to med/dental school so ppl are deciding to do law school. And not everyone is worried about debt cause most kids with the freedom to just decide to go to law school probably have financial freedom in the form of parents...over saturation of the market sucks but what else do u expect right now


True, but law schools are moving towards a trend of excluding or at least limiting the admission of fresh graduates, especially those without WE. The B-school model popularized by Northwestern, or an aspect(s) of the B-school model, anyway, is catching on with others like Vandy, Penn, etc.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:48 pm

SamSeaborn2016 wrote:Now, granted, I have been out of undergrad since 2003 but I am the only person I know going to law school. I have one friend from high school who went and I occasionally meet lawyers through my current job but I've never really felt that "everyone is applying." Even when I was in undergrad, I rarely heard people discuss law school.

On the flip side, it seems like everyone I knew in undergrad was going into teaching. I know an astonishingly large number of junior high teachers.


I know many teachers and cops. Not many lawyers or wannabes outside of law school itself. I'm with you.

09042014
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:01 am

PDaddy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
PDaddy wrote:I think most people would be better-off with MBA's, which can actually make you rich (or even "wealthy"), are easier to obtain and are more versatile. Law degrees are not nearly as profitable. And let's be real, that's what most law applicants are after, financial security. Most people who apply to law school would not make good lawyers and do not have the passion for it.


Most MBA's are even more worthless than JD's, if only because at the JD lets someone practice a different career.

If law is T14 or bust, MBA is certainly T20 or bust.


You know...you're right. Just found this link today. MBA's are no get rich tickets, but the potential for earnings sems much higher than for Lawyers. I would still guess that more MBA's make $10M/yr than do JD's, in real numbers and percentages. But the article below puts it into perspective.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... _education


http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/09 ... n_id=yahoo


Nobody makes 10 million a year because of what they learned in an MBA, but because they are great at business. The MBA might have jump started their career but its their talent that carries it.

Its like saying more JD's became Congressmen. Its true but hardly representative.

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englawyer
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby englawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:12 am

there are not that many $10 mil / yr jobs around. that is really only at the top of investment banking, hedge funds, private equity, and some C_O positions. i would guess that a JD so inclined and in the right type of law (notably corporate m&a) has a reasonable shot at those positions as well. in particular, general counsel is considered a C_O position that requires a JD.

the "nominal" case for a top MBA grad is something like this. I got these stats on a couple internet sites.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm
http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

management consulting:

First year out of business school/MBA:average of $160-200K (includes signing bonus)
* Engagement manager/Project leader: $175-250K
* Associate principal/Senior project leader: $250-400K
* Partner/Principal: $500-800K
* Senior partner/Director: $1M plus

i-banking:

First Year Associate $170K MBA
Third Year Associate $300K MBA
Vice President $500K 3-6 years
Director / Principal $700K 5-10 years
Managing Director / Partner $800K 7-10 years
Department head $2MM 10+ years

ps494
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby ps494 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:49 am

englawyer wrote:there are not that many $10 mil / yr jobs around. that is really only at the top of investment banking, hedge funds, private equity, and some C_O positions. i would guess that a JD so inclined and in the right type of law (notably corporate m&a) has a reasonable shot at those positions as well. in particular, general counsel is considered a C_O position that requires a JD.

the "nominal" case for a top MBA grad is something like this. I got these stats on a couple internet sites.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm
http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

management consulting:

First year out of business school/MBA:average of $160-200K (includes signing bonus)
* Engagement manager/Project leader: $175-250K
* Associate principal/Senior project leader: $250-400K
* Partner/Principal: $500-800K
* Senior partner/Director: $1M plus

i-banking:

First Year Associate $170K MBA
Third Year Associate $300K MBA
Vice President $500K 3-6 years
Director / Principal $700K 5-10 years
Managing Director / Partner $800K 7-10 years
Department head $2MM 10+ years


Ok, so why are all of us going into law and not investment banking?

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booboo
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby booboo » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:02 am

ps494 wrote:
englawyer wrote:there are not that many $10 mil / yr jobs around. that is really only at the top of investment banking, hedge funds, private equity, and some C_O positions. i would guess that a JD so inclined and in the right type of law (notably corporate m&a) has a reasonable shot at those positions as well. in particular, general counsel is considered a C_O position that requires a JD.

the "nominal" case for a top MBA grad is something like this. I got these stats on a couple internet sites.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm
http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

management consulting:

First year out of business school/MBA:average of $160-200K (includes signing bonus)
* Engagement manager/Project leader: $175-250K
* Associate principal/Senior project leader: $250-400K
* Partner/Principal: $500-800K
* Senior partner/Director: $1M plus

i-banking:

First Year Associate $170K MBA
Third Year Associate $300K MBA
Vice President $500K 3-6 years
Director / Principal $700K 5-10 years
Managing Director / Partner $800K 7-10 years
Department head $2MM 10+ years


Ok, so why are all of us going into law and not investment banking?


It's fun?

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macattaq
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby macattaq » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:14 am

ps494 wrote:
englawyer wrote:there are not that many $10 mil / yr jobs around. that is really only at the top of investment banking, hedge funds, private equity, and some C_O positions. i would guess that a JD so inclined and in the right type of law (notably corporate m&a) has a reasonable shot at those positions as well. in particular, general counsel is considered a C_O position that requires a JD.

the "nominal" case for a top MBA grad is something like this. I got these stats on a couple internet sites.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm
http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

management consulting:

First year out of business school/MBA:average of $160-200K (includes signing bonus)
* Engagement manager/Project leader: $175-250K
* Associate principal/Senior project leader: $250-400K
* Partner/Principal: $500-800K
* Senior partner/Director: $1M plus

i-banking:

First Year Associate $170K MBA
Third Year Associate $300K MBA
Vice President $500K 3-6 years
Director / Principal $700K 5-10 years
Managing Director / Partner $800K 7-10 years
Department head $2MM 10+ years


Ok, so why are all of us going into law and not investment banking?


Because, young grasshoppa, money is not the (sole) motivating factor.

eth3n
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby eth3n » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:18 am

I just see all these sophomore's and juniors in UG that are finally doing real research on the law school/economy situation and thinking "why the f didn't I choose [insert hard science major that will get you a job] instead of poli sci?"

Im still shocked that people are actually able to get jobs straight out of UG with any major, if only I knew then what I know now T_T

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macattaq
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby macattaq » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:25 am

eth3n wrote:I just see all these sophomore's and juniors in UG that are finally doing real research on the law school/economy situation and thinking "why the f didn't I choose [insert hard science major that will get you a job] instead of poli sci?"

Im still shocked that people are actually able to get jobs straight out of UG with any major, if only I knew then what I know now T_T


Well, to be fair, the economy may be shit right now, but it looks like it is getting better. I was talking with one of my profs the other day, and he was saying that the lack of lending froze projects in the pipelines. Once credit starts flowing at a regular pace, and business are less skittish, they should release these projects like an enema releases shit, creating loads of work for attorneys, particularly new attorneys who are needed to do basic legal work. Hopefully this happens in about 1.5 years, so that it is in full swing when I graduate.

09042014
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:37 am

ps494 wrote:
englawyer wrote:there are not that many $10 mil / yr jobs around. that is really only at the top of investment banking, hedge funds, private equity, and some C_O positions. i would guess that a JD so inclined and in the right type of law (notably corporate m&a) has a reasonable shot at those positions as well. in particular, general counsel is considered a C_O position that requires a JD.

the "nominal" case for a top MBA grad is something like this. I got these stats on a couple internet sites.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm
http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

management consulting:

First year out of business school/MBA:average of $160-200K (includes signing bonus)
* Engagement manager/Project leader: $175-250K
* Associate principal/Senior project leader: $250-400K
* Partner/Principal: $500-800K
* Senior partner/Director: $1M plus

i-banking:

First Year Associate $170K MBA
Third Year Associate $300K MBA
Vice President $500K 3-6 years
Director / Principal $700K 5-10 years
Managing Director / Partner $800K 7-10 years
Department head $2MM 10+ years


Ok, so why are all of us going into law and not investment banking?


Because ibanking firms that pay that much only hire from good MBA programs. And that means you need good work experience, and leadership to get in.

I'd assume those VP jobs in Ibanking are as hard to get as making partner is law firms. But I could be wrong, I'm speaking from ignorance.

If someone posted the salary structure of the V5 law firms on a website full of lay people they'd be impressed too.

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James Bond
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby James Bond » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:38 am

ps494 wrote:
englawyer wrote:there are not that many $10 mil / yr jobs around. that is really only at the top of investment banking, hedge funds, private equity, and some C_O positions. i would guess that a JD so inclined and in the right type of law (notably corporate m&a) has a reasonable shot at those positions as well. in particular, general counsel is considered a C_O position that requires a JD.

the "nominal" case for a top MBA grad is something like this. I got these stats on a couple internet sites.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm
http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

management consulting:

First year out of business school/MBA:average of $160-200K (includes signing bonus)
* Engagement manager/Project leader: $175-250K
* Associate principal/Senior project leader: $250-400K
* Partner/Principal: $500-800K
* Senior partner/Director: $1M plus

i-banking:

First Year Associate $170K MBA
Third Year Associate $300K MBA
Vice President $500K 3-6 years
Director / Principal $700K 5-10 years
Managing Director / Partner $800K 7-10 years
Department head $2MM 10+ years


Ok, so why are all of us going into law and not investment banking?


Because if you didn't graduate in the top of your class in an UG ending in 'arvard, 'inceton, or 'ale you can't get an investment banking job anyway? I really don't know of a job more elitist, more "good old boy" and socioeconomic class-oriented, and more only the top 1% if that then investment banking. Consulting is just the next step down too. They're just not as good with numbers and they travel more.

rookhawk
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby rookhawk » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:40 am

-
Last edited by rookhawk on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:51 am

biv0ns wrote:
ps494 wrote:
englawyer wrote:there are not that many $10 mil / yr jobs around. that is really only at the top of investment banking, hedge funds, private equity, and some C_O positions. i would guess that a JD so inclined and in the right type of law (notably corporate m&a) has a reasonable shot at those positions as well. in particular, general counsel is considered a C_O position that requires a JD.

the "nominal" case for a top MBA grad is something like this. I got these stats on a couple internet sites.

http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm
http://managementconsulted.com/consulti ... u-partner/

management consulting:

First year out of business school/MBA:average of $160-200K (includes signing bonus)
* Engagement manager/Project leader: $175-250K
* Associate principal/Senior project leader: $250-400K
* Partner/Principal: $500-800K
* Senior partner/Director: $1M plus

i-banking:

First Year Associate $170K MBA
Third Year Associate $300K MBA
Vice President $500K 3-6 years
Director / Principal $700K 5-10 years
Managing Director / Partner $800K 7-10 years
Department head $2MM 10+ years


Ok, so why are all of us going into law and not investment banking?


Because if you didn't graduate in the top of your class in an UG ending in 'arvard, 'inceton, or 'ale you can't get an investment banking job anyway? I really don't know of a job more elitist, more "good old boy" and socioeconomic class-oriented, and more only the top 1% if that then investment banking. Consulting is just the next step down too. They're just not as good with numbers and they travel more.


That's not entirely true. Chicago IBanking firms/companies recruited at UIUC engineering, and not even the top of the class. I was thinking of going that route, but the hours were horrid and there are a lot of wash outs after a couple years, and I figured I'd be stuck without a career.

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James Bond
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby James Bond » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:54 am

Desert Fox wrote:That's not entirely true. Chicago IBanking firms/companies recruited at UIUC engineering, and not even the top of the class. I was thinking of going that route, but the hours were horrid and there are a lot of wash outs after a couple years, and I figured I'd be stuck without a career.


Chicago IBanking =/= IBanking :wink:

09042014
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:57 am

biv0ns wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:That's not entirely true. Chicago IBanking firms/companies recruited at UIUC engineering, and not even the top of the class. I was thinking of going that route, but the hours were horrid and there are a lot of wash outs after a couple years, and I figured I'd be stuck without a career.


Chicago IBanking =/= IBanking :wink:


Ha, I'm sure you are right.

rookhawk
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby rookhawk » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:02 am

-
Last edited by rookhawk on Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RickyRoe
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby RickyRoe » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:05 am

What is the OP's major, there may be some adverse selection going on there. I have noticed this in my major as well, but I also notice a ton of the girls I know going into nursing and all I ever hear about is the shortage of nurses.

At the same time, it is not the number of law schools that is the porblem but the class sizes. Go to your local law school sometime and look through the old composite pictures. Thirty years ago there were dramatically fewer students in each class.

The bottom line is that many people will be without a job. I know a few JDs that were unemployed or underemployed and eventually had to take jobs waiting tables to pay off debts. It is a truth that I worry about all the time, but I know this is what I want and I am committed to it no matter what the market looks like. Unfortunately, I think that many applicants can't say the same.

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englawyer
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby englawyer » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:50 am

as someone mentioned, i-banking can be truly nepotistic. many positions are all about lifelong connections etc. it is also a very inaccessible field unless you went to the "right" undergrad and aced your interview.

believe it or not, biglaw associate is probably more interesting and has a better work/life balance (lol) than i-banking associate. i am actually pretty happy about how biglaw compensation matches up with those fields...seems roughly equivalent to consulting.

where law is worse is in the exit options. banking/consulting is extremely marketable for general business jobs (ie corporations). after your banking/consulting stint you can join almost any industry at a fairly high level, and have access to the jobs that will propel you to the top. law has less exit options after an associate stint...mostly in-house positions or lateraling to a lesser firm.

case in point: 10% of fortune 500 CEOs did a stint at a single management consulting firm: mckinsey. considering how elitist and difficult it is to land those positions, that is a truly ridiculous statistic.




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