Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

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macattaq
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby macattaq » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:13 pm

am060459 wrote:
ps494 wrote:
am060459 wrote:a lot of people are considering law school but i believe when they get hit with reality, the LSAT, they run and never look back.


I wish that was the case, but these people will usually settle for a tier 4. Everyone knows that going to law schools (any law school) means you're intelligent and that you will eventually be rich.


either way they are helping the people prepared for the lsat or those who do good with a better curve.


I guess this is a good thing, but they are also flooding an already saturated market with even more JDs. This dilutes the strength of the JD overall. It also has a massive, negative impact on those who either place outside of the top 25% at a T14, or who are outside of the T14 altogether. The ABA needs to become a real regulatory body and do their damn job, which is to stop the type of scam that is going on. I can't believe people are still falling for the myth that they can get boats, hookers, and blow just by going to law school at the People's College of Law.

/mini-rant

PoliticalJunkie
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby PoliticalJunkie » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:13 pm

This is not a new phenomena. It's been going on for decades.

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kalvano
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby kalvano » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:13 pm

I'm not applying, I am sifting through offers and deciding who will be graced with my presence.

Flanker1067
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby Flanker1067 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:16 pm

I feel like am anomaly. I know NO ONE (well almost) going to or planning to go to law school. I was a finance major, and most of my friends for some reasons were finance/accounting or some type of science/engineering. I have about 5 friends in med school and none in law.

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GATORTIM
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:21 pm

macattaq wrote: I can't believe people are still falling for the myth that they can get boats, hookers, and blow just by going to law school at the People's College of Law.


perpetuating the myth...

--ImageRemoved--

ps494
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby ps494 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:34 pm

macattaq wrote:
am060459 wrote:
ps494 wrote:
am060459 wrote:a lot of people are considering law school but i believe when they get hit with reality, the LSAT, they run and never look back.


I wish that was the case, but these people will usually settle for a tier 4. Everyone knows that going to law schools (any law school) means you're intelligent and that you will eventually be rich.


either way they are helping the people prepared for the lsat or those who do good with a better curve.


I guess this is a good thing, but they are also flooding an already saturated market with even more JDs. This dilutes the strength of the JD overall. It also has a massive, negative impact on those who either place outside of the top 25% at a T14, or who are outside of the T14 altogether. The ABA needs to become a real regulatory body and do their damn job, which is to stop the type of scam that is going on. I can't believe people are still falling for the myth that they can get boats, hookers, and blow just by going to law school at the People's College of Law.

/mini-rant


It will never happen. The ABA has become a political/money grubbing organization.

ps494
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby ps494 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:37 pm

macattaq wrote:
am060459 wrote:
ps494 wrote:
am060459 wrote:a lot of people are considering law school but i believe when they get hit with reality, the LSAT, they run and never look back.


I wish that was the case, but these people will usually settle for a tier 4. Everyone knows that going to law schools (any law school) means you're intelligent and that you will eventually be rich.


either way they are helping the people prepared for the lsat or those who do good with a better curve.


I guess this is a good thing, but they are also flooding an already saturated market with even more JDs. This dilutes the strength of the JD overall. It also has a massive, negative impact on those who either place outside of the top 25% at a T14, or who are outside of the T14 altogether. The ABA needs to become a real regulatory body and do their damn job, which is to stop the type of scam that is going on. I can't believe people are still falling for the myth that they can get boats, hookers, and blow just by going to law school at the People's College of Law.

/mini-rant


They're naive children. They haven't taken the time to do any research, so most of their perceptions of what the legal profession is really like is based off of what the media, their family, and their friends tell them. Admittedly, I too had a warped idea of what the profession was really like, but this was back in high school.

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wadeny
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby wadeny » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:51 pm

Yes. And, ironically enough, the misinformed people who see law school as a safe haven in this economy are probably making one of the biggest financial mistakes of their lives. Sure, other areas of the economy are suffering too, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people think they are getting their golden ticket to success via law school. After all, it makes so much sense to avoid looking for a job now and take on $100k+ in loans, thinking that you will be raking in the big bucks three years from now. Sorry kids, not everyone can graduate in the top of their law school class.

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traehekat
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby traehekat » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:02 pm

I'll play along.

First day of the semester, and in one of my philosophy classes we had to introduce ourselves and say some short bit. Easily 20 of the 30 people in the class mentioned they are heading to law school. Whenever I hear this, I always wonder to myself, "Do these people even have a clue?" To be honest, I didn't have a clue when I first decided I wanted to go to law school as a freshman. Then I was introduced to TLS and the rest is history.

I'm sticking with law because I can genuinely say it is the only thing that has really interested me, however my interest level is very high. I also think I have the personality for it, whatever that means. But I always wonder what the reasoning is for everyone else who says they are going to law school. Get rich quick? Hide from the economy? Nothing else to do with philosophy/political science degree? Those in category one and/or two are obvious ignorant, and I can KIND of sympathize with category three. I also wonder if they realize the commitment they are making, or perhaps the plunge they are taking, by paying sticker at a TTT, as I know some are doing.

Scary.

ughOSU
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby ughOSU » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:01 am

The fact that so many naive undergraduates are going to plunge into law school is unfortunate. They're going into a situation where it is unlikely that they know the stakes, taking out $100k+ in loans to pay for it, going into the most important academic year of their lives, and then undertaking the most important job hunt of their lives having never done a job hunt before.

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PDaddy
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby PDaddy » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:45 am

Aeroplane wrote:
ps494 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
PDaddy wrote:I think most people would be better-off with MBA's, which can actually make you rich (or even "wealthy"), are easier to obtain and are more versatile. Law degrees are not nearly as profitable. And let's be real, that's what most law applicants are after, financial security. Most people who apply to law school would not make good lawyers and do not have the passion for it.


Most MBA's are even more worthless than JD's, if only because at the JD lets someone practice a different career.

If law is T14 or bust, MBA is certainly T20 or bust.


But what is the point of getting you MBA? So you can work in a corporation and make shit? It seems like the people in business that do very well are the ones that started their own business, which obviously does NOT require and MBA.

Some companies and/or public employers will give auto-promotions and/or auto-raises for employees who complete an MBA or a Master's. Some companies make an MBA an informal pre-requisite for promotion at certain levels and don't really care about its quality. Some companies pay for MBA's and consider it a significant "soft" in evaluating/promoting their employees. However, if a person is not in one of those specific situations, I generally agree with the T__ or bust mentality for b-school, except I think T20 is probably way over-generous.


It looks like the same elitism affects the B-Schools, eh? In reality, the only thing a JD can do that an MBA can't is practice in the courtroom. MBA's go to school for only two years and have more flexibility afterwards (not that a JD can't be at least a little versatile). MBA's are in less debt. An MBA can run a business, be a CEO, make loads of cash as an investment banker, negotiate contracts, be an entertainment agent, do international business, etc. I know MBA's under 30 whose bonuses double and triple these golden $160K+ salaries we are after. And if they're partners, watch out.

There are still guys on Wall Street getting $1M+ in bonuses, and they aren't even 30. Plus they work fewer hours and have more perks. I know Wall Street has had to tighten its belt, but when the recovery happens, the MBA's will be the first to drink from the well.
Last edited by PDaddy on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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superserial
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby superserial » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:10 am

yes, and they're all messaging me for help on facebook.

ps494
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby ps494 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:18 am

ughOSU wrote:The fact that so many naive undergraduates are going to plunge into law school is unfortunate. They're going into a situation where it is unlikely that they know the stakes, taking out $100k+ in loans to pay for it, going into the most important academic year of their lives, and then undertaking the most important job hunt of their lives having never done a job hunt before.


It'll hit them eventually. I wish I could direct all these morons to jdunderground; a bunch of guys that don't have a reason to live.

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im_blue
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby im_blue » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:06 am

traehekat wrote:I'll play along.

First day of the semester, and in one of my philosophy classes we had to introduce ourselves and say some short bit. Easily 20 of the 30 people in the class mentioned they are heading to law school. Whenever I hear this, I always wonder to myself, "Do these people even have a clue?" To be honest, I didn't have a clue when I first decided I wanted to go to law school as a freshman. Then I was introduced to TLS and the rest is history.

I'm sticking with law because I can genuinely say it is the only thing that has really interested me, however my interest level is very high. I also think I have the personality for it, whatever that means. But I always wonder what the reasoning is for everyone else who says they are going to law school. Get rich quick? Hide from the economy? Nothing else to do with philosophy/political science degree? Those in category one and/or two are obvious ignorant, and I can KIND of sympathize with category three. I also wonder if they realize the commitment they are making, or perhaps the plunge they are taking, by paying sticker at a TTT, as I know some are doing.

Scary.


Uh nothing personal, but you're not exactly T14- or even T30-bound with a 3.6/158. How do you really differ from the 20 philosophy pre-laws? I agree with categories 1 and 2 being ignorant, but a high interest level and perceived personality fit are very common reasons to go pre-law.

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englawyer
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby englawyer » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:56 am

PDaddy wrote:
It looks like the same elitism affects the B-Schools, eh? In reality, the only thing a JD can do that an MBA can't is practice in the courtroom. MBA's go to school for only two years and have more flexibility afterwards (not that a JD can't be at least a little versatile). MBA's are in less debt. An MBA can run a business, be a CEO, make loads of cash as an investment banker, negotiate contracts, be an entertainment agent, do international business, etc. I know MBA's under 30 whose bonuses double and triple these golden $160K+ salaries we are after. And if they're partners, watch out.

There are still guys on Wall Street getting $1M+ in bonuses, and they aren't even 30. Plus they work fewer hours and have more perks. I know Wall Street has had to tighten its belt, but when the recovery happens, the MBA's will be the first to drink from the well.


mba does NOT work like this except for the very best ones in the country.

the only MBA programs that give you a good chance at bulge bracket i-banking or MBB consulting are Top 10 ish: H/W/S // Columbia,Chicago,Kellog,MIT // Tuck, NYU, Michigan, Haas. wall st is even more elitist than biglaw, and mba programs follow the trend.

if you missed the gravy train after u-grad (didn't score an i-banking or consulting job) it is mighty hard to switch into those fields later. this is also reflected in top mba admissions policies....2/3 of the class came from banking/consulting to begin with, making it pretty hard for an "outsider" to crack.

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Doritos
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby Doritos » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:56 am

im_blue wrote:
traehekat wrote:I'll play along.

First day of the semester, and in one of my philosophy classes we had to introduce ourselves and say some short bit. Easily 20 of the 30 people in the class mentioned they are heading to law school. Whenever I hear this, I always wonder to myself, "Do these people even have a clue?" To be honest, I didn't have a clue when I first decided I wanted to go to law school as a freshman. Then I was introduced to TLS and the rest is history.

I'm sticking with law because I can genuinely say it is the only thing that has really interested me, however my interest level is very high. I also think I have the personality for it, whatever that means. But I always wonder what the reasoning is for everyone else who says they are going to law school. Get rich quick? Hide from the economy? Nothing else to do with philosophy/political science degree? Those in category one and/or two are obvious ignorant, and I can KIND of sympathize with category three. I also wonder if they realize the commitment they are making, or perhaps the plunge they are taking, by paying sticker at a TTT, as I know some are doing.

Scary.


Uh nothing personal, but you're not exactly T14- or even T30-bound with a 3.6/158. How do you really differ from the 20 philosophy pre-laws? I agree with categories 1 and 2 being ignorant, but a high interest level and perceived personality fit are very common reasons to go pre-law.



nothing personal of course...

dakatz
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby dakatz » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:00 pm

I tutor students on the LSAT so I come across many stories that concern me, and I feel guilty that I just keep my mouth shut. So many of them claim that law school is their dream and they will go at all costs, regardless of the school's ranking or reputation. They say they are fine paying full price at a school like Touro or Florida International. On one hand, I don't want to shatter some poor kid's dream, but on the other hand, I feel like I'm just helping them walk into a mountain of debt and unemployment that they will regret for a long time.

Flanker1067
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby Flanker1067 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:09 pm

dakatz wrote:I tutor students on the LSAT so I come across many stories that concern me, and I feel guilty that I just keep my mouth shut. So many of them claim that law school is their dream and they will go at all costs, regardless of the school's ranking or reputation. They say they are fine paying full price at a school like Touro or Florida International. On one hand, I don't want to shatter some poor kid's dream, but on the other hand, I feel like I'm just helping them walk into a mountain of debt and unemployment that they will regret for a long time.



Just tell them about TLS. Problem will solve itself.

dakatz
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby dakatz » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Flanker1067 wrote:
dakatz wrote:I tutor students on the LSAT so I come across many stories that concern me, and I feel guilty that I just keep my mouth shut. So many of them claim that law school is their dream and they will go at all costs, regardless of the school's ranking or reputation. They say they are fine paying full price at a school like Touro or Florida International. On one hand, I don't want to shatter some poor kid's dream, but on the other hand, I feel like I'm just helping them walk into a mountain of debt and unemployment that they will regret for a long time.



Just tell them about TLS. Problem will solve itself.


Hell, maybe I should tell them about JDU if they want the true bleak picture of the lives of TTT grads.

Flanker1067
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby Flanker1067 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:13 pm

dakatz wrote:
Flanker1067 wrote:
dakatz wrote:I tutor students on the LSAT so I come across many stories that concern me, and I feel guilty that I just keep my mouth shut. So many of them claim that law school is their dream and they will go at all costs, regardless of the school's ranking or reputation. They say they are fine paying full price at a school like Touro or Florida International. On one hand, I don't want to shatter some poor kid's dream, but on the other hand, I feel like I'm just helping them walk into a mountain of debt and unemployment that they will regret for a long time.



Just tell them about TLS. Problem will solve itself.


Hell, maybe I should tell them about JDU if they want the true bleak picture of the lives of TTT grads.


The people on JDU don't even sound real though. Not that they aren't real, but alot of it I think is exaggerated or the person is just an idiot. But yea, could work.

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traehekat
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby traehekat » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:28 pm

im_blue wrote:
traehekat wrote:I'll play along.

First day of the semester, and in one of my philosophy classes we had to introduce ourselves and say some short bit. Easily 20 of the 30 people in the class mentioned they are heading to law school. Whenever I hear this, I always wonder to myself, "Do these people even have a clue?" To be honest, I didn't have a clue when I first decided I wanted to go to law school as a freshman. Then I was introduced to TLS and the rest is history.

I'm sticking with law because I can genuinely say it is the only thing that has really interested me, however my interest level is very high. I also think I have the personality for it, whatever that means. But I always wonder what the reasoning is for everyone else who says they are going to law school. Get rich quick? Hide from the economy? Nothing else to do with philosophy/political science degree? Those in category one and/or two are obvious ignorant, and I can KIND of sympathize with category three. I also wonder if they realize the commitment they are making, or perhaps the plunge they are taking, by paying sticker at a TTT, as I know some are doing.

Scary.


Uh nothing personal, but you're not exactly T14- or even T30-bound with a 3.6/158. How do you really differ from the 20 philosophy pre-laws? I agree with categories 1 and 2 being ignorant, but a high interest level and perceived personality fit are very common reasons to go pre-law.


My bad, I guess my profile isn't updated. 158 is my September score, 164 is my December score. Not stellar, but I'm hoping to make it into a few T30 schools. Hypothetically, if 158 were my only score, I would not have made my previous statement, so I can see where you are coming from.

I should also correct my previous statement. I am sticking with law because (a) I have a high interest, (b) it seems to fit my personality, and (c) I have a decent LSAT score. If I didn't raise my LSAT score in December, I would indeed be in the same boat I imagine some of my peers to be in. I'm not even sure I would go through with applying to law school. So, I suppose I differ from the other twenty philosophy pre-laws in that statistically I have a better LSAT score than 90 percent of them (although, philosophy majors tend to score higher than most people, but you get the idea - I am sure there are people with lower scores in my class), and I can probably guess there are some who are attending law school for the aforementioned reasons (get rich quick, hiding from economy, lack of a better idea).

That sounds a little douche of me, I'll admit, but I am just worried for some of these people. I have a friend who I studied with sometimes and he ended up with some pretty low LSAT scores in September and December (low to the point he would be reaching to get into almost any law school). I told him he is better off than the people on the fringe who score a little better and decide to go to some of these TTTs.

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PDaddy
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:54 am

englawyer wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
It looks like the same elitism affects the B-Schools, eh? In reality, the only thing a JD can do that an MBA can't is practice in the courtroom. MBA's go to school for only two years and have more flexibility afterwards (not that a JD can't be at least a little versatile). MBA's are in less debt. An MBA can run a business, be a CEO, make loads of cash as an investment banker, negotiate contracts, be an entertainment agent, do international business, etc. I know MBA's under 30 whose bonuses double and triple these golden $160K+ salaries we are after. And if they're partners, watch out.

There are still guys on Wall Street getting $1M+ in bonuses, and they aren't even 30. Plus they work fewer hours and have more perks. I know Wall Street has had to tighten its belt, but when the recovery happens, the MBA's will be the first to drink from the well.


mba does NOT work like this except for the very best ones in the country.

the only MBA programs that give you a good chance at bulge bracket i-banking or MBB consulting are Top 10 ish: H/W/S // Columbia,Chicago,Kellog,MIT // Tuck, NYU, Michigan, Haas. wall st is even more elitist than biglaw, and mba programs follow the trend.

if you missed the gravy train after u-grad (didn't score an i-banking or consulting job) it is mighty hard to switch into those fields later. this is also reflected in top mba admissions policies....2/3 of the class came from banking/consulting to begin with, making it pretty hard for an "outsider" to crack.


But we are talking about students who, if their energies were appropriately directed, could potentially go to those elite schools and be top grads. What's to stop some of these wide-eyed 22 y/o grads from doing the 9-5 thing for a few years and getting their MBA's? Or at least they'd figure out if they really wanted to be lawyers.

I may be in the minority, but I am against 90% of recent grads going to law school. Work, travel, get your feet wet. I realize the economy is bad, so it's hard to do those things, but we've already talked about the alternative ($100K+ debt and possibly no job waiting in 3 years anyways). Better to be unemployed with little to no debt than the former.

latinolaw
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby latinolaw » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:56 pm

dakatz wrote:I tutor students on the LSAT so I come across many stories that concern me, and I feel guilty that I just keep my mouth shut. So many of them claim that law school is their dream and they will go at all costs, regardless of the school's ranking or reputation. They say they are fine paying full price at a school like Touro or Florida International. On one hand, I don't want to shatter some poor kid's dream, but on the other hand, I feel like I'm just helping them walk into a mountain of debt and unemployment that they will regret for a long time.


If their parents are rich and going to pave the way, there is nothing that'll shake them out of it. It's kids whose parents tell them that they can do anything they want to in life and hold them by the hand the whole way through.

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jrobby6
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby jrobby6 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:05 pm

Correction: Everyone says they're going to law school but most never go through with it.

Scurredsitless1
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Re: Is EVERYONE applying to law school these days?

Postby Scurredsitless1 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:16 pm

jrobby6 wrote:Correction: Everyone says they're going to law school but most never go through with it.


Agreed. And people surround themselves with like minded individuals. When you spend time with people you went to college with, they will probably have similar goals as you. Plus, when you post on message boards devoted to law school admissions, you will feel like everyone is applying to law school.




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