Was the LSAT correct?

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GATORTIM
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby GATORTIM » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:48 pm

this is me waiting on the proctor to hand out testing materials

Image

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jlnoa0915
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby jlnoa0915 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:50 pm

Has nothing to do with believing or not believing the LSAC. Its just something I would like to research.

DukeHopeful
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby DukeHopeful » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:51 pm

gdane5, consider the concept of a curve. The top scores reflect the scores that were best of the curve. This doesn't necessarily mean that a 3.6 at UM is equivalent to a 3.6 at a T-14 school, because in theory, the quality of work at a T-14 should be higher. That is why a firm would be more willing to accept someone who ranks lower in their class from a top school than a relatively higher ranked student from a T2. At least this is all my understanding of how the system works.

For your friend, though, her LSAT of 152 is below the 25% at UM. Which means that her LSAT score may not have predicted entirely accurately how she would fare among other UM students. No standardized test is a perfect measurement, but in general it must work well enough.

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gdane
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby gdane » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:52 pm

...Sigh...

I used my friend as an example to further illustrate my question.

The point of this question was to get answers from people that A) Did poorly on the LSAT and subsequently did well in Law School, particularly their first year. B) Did very well on the LSAT and didnt do too well their first year because they couldnt handle it.

I didnt want a bunch of dumb ass answers like ive gotten.

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mallard
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby mallard » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:53 pm

gdane5 wrote:...Sigh...

I used my friend as an example to further illustrate my question.

The point of this question was to get answers from people that A) Did poorly on the LSAT and subsequently did well in Law School, particularly their first year. B) Did very well on the LSAT and didnt do too well their first year because they couldnt handle it.

I didnt want a bunch of dumb ass answers like ive gotten.


You wanted to hear what you wanted to hear; we gave you the credited response. Just read the LSAC report and try not to fuck up 1L.

Marmolada
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby Marmolada » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:55 pm

gdane5 wrote:Ok so far noone has actually answered the question.

I had one person give me a smart ass response and another one that brought up another topic.

I've read LSAC's claims about the LSAT on their website. I know what they say the LSAT is supposed to measure.

The University of Miami may not be a top 14 school, but it still has its share of bright students. Plus to have near perfect grades with as tough a curve as Miami is admirable, regardless of whether the school has lots of 170 students.

This was a simple question that noone seems to be answering...



I'm guessing you just took your first practice LSAT and got a bad score. Instead of whining on TLS, go study. It's not a very hard test, anyone of reasonable intelligence can get a decent score with enough effort.

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rupert.pupkin
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby rupert.pupkin » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:55 pm

There's a good flaw in the reasoning question somewhere in here.

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gdane
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby gdane » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:58 pm

Hahaha. I still have no idea where Im going Mallard. Patiently waiting for responses.

I've just never been a fan of standardized tests that are supposed to predict this and that and in turn it screws over people that are indeed talented, but they just suck at standardized tests.

It's how I feel about the NFL Combine as well. You're not really testing anything at all. Getting a bunch of guys to run 40 yards up a straight line(without pads) and measuring how long it takes them should not be as big a deal as many people have made it to be...

UofO
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby UofO » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:58 pm

GATORTIM wrote:this is me waiting on the proctor to hand out testing materials

Image



LOL LOL LOLL hahah

mim
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby mim » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:59 pm

while there is clearly a correlation, it doesn't necessarily mean there is causation.

generally, one would guess that people who do well on the LSAT are naturally smart and also work really hard. Being smart and working hard in law school would probably lead to good scores.

OF COURSE there will be people who do well but then for whatever reason don't work hard, and their grades will suffer. I also assume it's fairly likely that some people with lower LSAT scores do just fine if they work their butts off. Some people just can't do MC for the life of them.

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rayiner
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby rayiner » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:59 pm

gdane5 wrote:The point of this question was to see whether or not the LSAT is all its cracked up to be. Is it a perfect science ( i dont think it is at all) and if it isnt a perfect science then why do law schools and prospective students allow themselves to be taken hostage by the LSAT?


Obviously you'll have individuals who out or underperform their LSATs. It is inherently an imperfect statistical measure. However, law schools don't select individuals, they compose classes of 200-300 people. The LSAT (and to a lesser extent UGPA) is definitely valid for that task.

Consider what the correlation I cited above (0.5) actually means: on average, a 1 SD gap in LSAT between two groups will lead to a 0.5 SD gap in bar exam score. Ie: if you get a group of people who scored 160 on the LSAT and 50th percentile on the bar exam, then a group of people who scored 170 on the LSAT will score 70th percentile on the bar exam.

If you're putting together a class full of people who will be taking the bar exam, that's useful information.

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mallard
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby mallard » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:00 pm

gdane5 wrote:Hahaha. I still have no idea where Im going Mallard. Patiently waiting for responses.

I've just never been a fan of standardized tests that are supposed to predict this and that and in turn it screws over people that are indeed talented, but they just suck at standardized tests.

It's how I feel about the NFL Combine as well. You're not really testing anything at all. Getting a bunch of guys to run 40 yards up a straight line(without pads) and measuring how long it takes them should not be as big a deal as many people have made it to be...


Unfortunately, law school admissions is not about everyone being special; it's about having objective measures. Distinguish yourself in law school, like your friend did. It certainly happens, and high-scoring students definitely mess up sometimes too. Don't get so stressed and defensive about the LSAT; it will be a true non-issue in the fall.

keg411
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby keg411 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:55 pm

I had a crap GPA at UM and have a much, much better LSAT than your friend. Her 4.0 doesn't predict whether or not she'll do well on the LSAT and it doesn't make her smarter.

(Seriously, she's going to have the 4.0 forever. Tell her to take a few years off and then re-take. Maybe she just didn't understand the test. Or maybe she took it raw and didn't have any tutoring/class/prep books, which would explain it as the LSAT is a very sensitive standardized test that you can't just take "cold" like the SAT)

This is probably more for the LSAT forum, but the truth is, getting from the 150's to the 160's is solely figuring out what the questions are asking and how to answer them. All of the PT's in the world won't help improve a score if you don't know what you're doing wrong and how to solve that. I don't think the bibles/prep books teach that and you really need a person who has solved the LSAT to answer those questions specifically in a way that the person studying can understand it.

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englawyer
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby englawyer » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:29 pm

the problem is that your LSAT score puts you in a law school class with people w/ similar LSAT scores. For example, USC has a 25-75 range of 165 to 167. The LSAT couldn't do a good job of predicting grades there because everyone has a very close score to begin with.

what it would (theoretically) predict is your class rank if you took one student from every law school and put them in a class together. in that hypothetical law school, you would probably see 170+ scorers near the top and 150- scorers near the bottom.

i think.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:39 pm

englawyer wrote:the problem is that your LSAT score puts you in a law school class with people w/ similar LSAT scores. For example, USC has a 25-75 range of 165 to 167. The LSAT couldn't do a good job of predicting grades there because everyone has a very close score to begin with.

This is essentially true. This is also why LSAT has a high correlation to bar passage; there are a number of things that can influence grades in a curved-grade environment, including how well your classmates do, but when you return to a more objective measurement of ability, it's clear that higher LSAT generally means higher likelihood of being able to pass the bar.

This is one big reason why LSAT matters. Harvard wants a 99%+ bar passage rate, because 1) it affects the rankings and 2) it's an embarrassment for a top law school to graduate students who can't pass the bar. U of Miami on the other hand historically has been hovering around the 75-85% bar passage rate. The competition there is obviously not as difficult. Thus making the top of the class at U of Miami is not as impressive.

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dresden doll
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby dresden doll » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:15 pm

gdane5 wrote:Ok so far noone has actually answered the question.

I had one person give me a smart ass response and another one that brought up another topic.

I've read LSAC's claims about the LSAT on their website. I know what they say the LSAT is supposed to measure.

The University of Miami may not be a top 14 school, but it still has its share of bright students. Plus to have near perfect grades with as tough a curve as Miami is admirable, regardless of whether the school has lots of 170 students.

This was a simple question that noone seems to be answering...


My simple question to you is whether 152 falls around the 75th percentile at UM. I don't really feel like looking it up right now because my Internet is screwing up.

Also, haven't there been bitchings last cycle in re: UM's ridiculously lax admissions standards? I'm not sure how much I believe the 'it still has its share of bright students' claim.

And, btw, comparing a person's LSAT score to grades entails assuming they worked just as hard as anyone else. 75th percentile scorers could well be coasting along while 25th percentile scorers furiously study in fear of underperforming just as LSAT predicted they might.

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gdane
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby gdane » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:44 pm

My friend worked very hard. I literally did not see her for at least three months.

UMiami's 75th % is 158.

I was hoping to get a few personal anecdotes on here. Maybe some people that went to a t14 with a "low" LSAT score and far exceeded any expectations.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:46 pm

gdane5 wrote:My friend worked very hard. I literally did not see her for at least three months.

UMiami's 75th % is 158.

I was hoping to get a few personal anecdotes on here. Maybe some people that went to a t14 with a "low" LSAT score and far exceeded any expectations.

The spread between "low" LSAT scores and "high" LSAT scores at most schools is only 5 points or so. You're not going to find very many examples of someone with an LSAT as low as your friend's getting into T14s at all. Even URMs are not typically taken that often at T14s with LSATs that low.

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mallard
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby mallard » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:49 pm

I have a smart friend here at HLS who scored in the 160s. We'll see in a week but I think he did pretty well. You happy now?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:53 pm

mallard wrote:I have a smart friend here at HLS who scored in the 160s. We'll see in a week but I think he did pretty well. You happy now?

God damnit, now he's gonna feel vindicated and get even dumber.

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mallard
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby mallard » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:54 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
mallard wrote:I have a smart friend here at HLS who scored in the 160s. We'll see in a week but I think he did pretty well. You happy now?

God damnit, now he's gonna feel vindicated and get even dumber.


I was hoping the thread could die.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:57 pm

mallard wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
mallard wrote:I have a smart friend here at HLS who scored in the 160s. We'll see in a week but I think he did pretty well. You happy now?

God damnit, now he's gonna feel vindicated and get even dumber.

I was hoping the thread could die.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people.

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Lawl Shcool
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby Lawl Shcool » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:04 pm

Hope this helps:

Im at a t4 school, my LSAT score is above the 75th percentile here. I know a few people who had MUCH higher scores than I did (ex: 163 and 172 respectively (still unsure why they came here)). I outperformed both by a wide margin gpa wise first semester.

mrm2083
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby mrm2083 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:10 pm

It doesn't surprise me that your friend did so well. First off her score is not THAT low for UM and I'm sure she studied like crazy for those grades. UM also has a pretty low average acceptance GPA which means that those people with the top LSATs probably had low GPAs = lazy. For example, I am highly considering attending UM (waiting on money and it's currently my undergrad) with a 171/3.43. Now the whole thing is that I have a 3.4 a pretty shitty GPA because I've been fuckin lazy. I plan on putting on my game face when I start law school but the fact is that a 152 with a 4.0 out of undergrad is probably a much much harder worker than I am. Basically what I'm saying is that your friend is probably lacking in logical reasoning or whatever it is the lsat tests but more than makes up for it with a shit load of hard work (I guarentee she killed herself studying).

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traehekat
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Re: Was the LSAT correct?

Postby traehekat » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:19 am

I have no idea whether or not you took the LSAT already or you are in law school right now or what, OP, but here's some advice - if you are still planning on taking the LSAT, better go back to studying. If you have already taken the LSAT and do not plan on taking it again in the future, then forget about the LSAT, FOREVER.

Is the LSAT a good predictor of 1L success? The shit if I know, a lot of it seems relative to where you are going to school, your classmates' LSAT scores, etc. Ask a lot of law school representatives and they will tell you it is a fairly reliable predictor.

Either way, who cares? Say you score a 170+. Does that mean you don't need to study as much as the guy next to you in torts because he scored a 162? No, just study your ass off, whether it is the LSAT or law school exams. Who cares if you were 'predicted' by your LSAT score to perform at a certain level in law school.




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