Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

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rw2264
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby rw2264 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:51 pm

Cloud9 wrote:
Lxw wrote:This is a momentously stupid idea.


Can you elaborate on why you think so? (I love it when I hear that by the way, because I've heard it before for my other degrees) :)

awesomepossum wrote: It goes without saying that you won't be able to work as a lawyer outside of CA .


As they explained it, that would be true for any lawyer. Any lawyer would have to retake the Bar in the state they practice. Even if I decided to move to another state, I wouldn't have to practice law necessarily, I can leverage one of my other degrees.

Our family is largely in CA, NY, TX and AZ. Other than those states and perhaps CO, FL, I can't imagine myself living in any other state.

"Law school drop outs can be lawyers in New York, California, Maine, Vermont, Virginia, Wyoming, and Washington... Neither Abraham Lincoln nor Clarence Darrow, for example, graduated from law school. But lawyers who took this route are a relative rarity nowadays, and there are usually fewer than 400 students nationwide pursuing law office study at any given time."


you might as well do reasonably well on the LSAT and go to a really dinky law school for free (i'm thinking like... santa barbara and ventura colleges of law).

also, note all the famous lawyers without law degrees are from the 18th and 19th century. i wonder why that is? oh yeah, because its not really possible to do what they did in our over-credentialized society

CyLaw
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby CyLaw » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:54 pm

Yep. Now, if you can only go back about 60 - 100 years and start your law career then.

Times have changed.

BTW: Does anyone else find it a little strange that a 40+ year old MBA, MSEE, BSCS who just joined less than 24 hours ago is becoming one of the most prolific posters on this forum.

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TheTopBloke
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby TheTopBloke » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:57 pm

You're operating under some false knowledge. I have legal experience and I have looked into similar processes. The problem is under the Cal Bar rules, you must work in a legal office for 4 years. You might as well go to law school for 3 years. The work experience has to be thoroughly documented, it's not just about working for a couple of hours with a lawyers or a judge. And think about it, unless you have some extraordinary circumstances, what legal practice is going to waste their money on you when you have not passed the bar, and lawyers across the country are desperate for jobs?

Cloud9
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Cloud9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:58 pm

Check this out: http://becomingalawyerwithoutlawschool.blogspot.com/

Q: what are the challenges you faced becoming a lawyer without law school?

A: Let me qualify this a little. I became a lawyer with no law school degree. I was admitted into law school without having to take the LSAT because I had passed the Baby Bar with no formal legal education.

That having been said, the biggest challenge I had was the ordeal of having to clerk for an attorney and not get paid, and then working in a Home Depot. at night for 10 bucks an hour. Other challenges were all the naysayers who kept telling me how I would never get a job, that I couldn't possibly be smart enough to pass the Bar with no law school degree, etc.

The funny thing is, I make more than those very same people who still work for firms like Lewis Blah Blah and Gibson Dunce and Blah Blah, so my revenge was proving them all wrong. There were more challenges, but being a Marine, it was nothing compared to basic training.

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tinman
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby tinman » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:08 pm

loser148 wrote:patently stupid...get a scholarship and degree...


I second this idea (and appreciate the pun). As you seem not to care very much at all about the law degree, why not go for a scholarship at a school slightly lower ranked than the best to which you are admitted? If you are really as motivated as you portray, you can easily work while you go to law school (which you apparent think will be easy), and then you don't have to worry about not having a law degree.

Also, a lot of places will pay for your law school if you work for them as a patent agent during law school, at least this was the case for people with science Ph.D.s in Boston. I met a few people that had their firm pay for their law school (Harvard, BU, or Suffolk) while also paying their salary. I think it usually took them 4-5 years. I am not sure how common these arrangements might be in California, but it's worth looking into.

Cloud9
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Cloud9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:15 pm

This is absolutely hilarious! I love it!

"I am Michael P. Ehline, a Los Angeles personal injury attorney. I am one of about 64 attorneys in California who passed the Baby Bar Exam with no higher education and General Bar Exam with no law degree, on the California State Bar Law Office Study Program (LOSP). Learning how to become a lawyer with no law school degree is no simple task, but it's do-able. Prior to learning about becoming a lawyer on the California State Bar Law Office Study Program with no law school, I had no college other than basic German, basic French, and some typing lessons . This article on how to become an attorney without college training or a law school degree is not intended to be a law school bible. This is simply one man's story of becoming a California criminal defense and personal injury consumer attorney in California by "reading"for the law on the California State Bar - Law Office Study Program."

And he makes more money than many lawyers who attended law school!

Not to mention he was networking with lawyers from day 1 throughout this whole process, and from the first day he was a lawyer he had a backlog of clients.

"In California, you can pass the bar exam with no law school or college at all."

As far as I am aware, seven states in the U.S. allow reading for the law without law school as follows (Source):

California;

Maine;

New York;

Vermont;

Virginia;

Washington;

Wyoming.

Although this article focuses of California, a few of the above states have basic educational requirements prior to admission into the Bar. In California, this is known as the Law Office Study Program.

California:

"Applicants who obtain legal education by . . . law office study must have four years of law study and take an examination after their firstyear. Applicants who pass the examination within three consecutive administrations of first becoming eligible to take it will receive credit for all law study completed to the date of the examination passed."

Maine:

"Applicants may have . . . completed 2/3 of graduationrequirements from an ABA-accredited law school and within 12 months after successful completion pursued the study of law in the law office of an attorney in active practice of law in Maine on a full-time basis for at least one year . . . ."

New York:

"Law office study permitted after successful completion of one year at an ABA-approved law school."(See also)

Vermont:

"Four-year law office study program; must have completed three-fourths of work accepted for a bachelor's degree in a college approved by the Court before commencing the study of law"

Wyoming:

"Law office study permitted as a structured course comparable to 2 years at an ABA-approved law school Prior approval of independent study required."

No special requirements are needed to become an attorney without law school in Virginia or Washington as far as I could determine.

Cloud9
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Cloud9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:22 pm

tinman wrote:
loser148 wrote:patently stupid...get a scholarship and degree...


I second this idea (and appreciate the pun). As you seem not to care very much at all about the law degree, why not go for a scholarship at a school slightly lower ranked than the best to which you are admitted? If you are really as motivated as you portray, you can easily work while you go to law school (which you apparent think will be easy), and then you don't have to worry about not having a law degree.

Also, a lot of places will pay for your law school if you work for them as a patent agent during law school, at least this was the case for people with science Ph.D.s in Boston. I met a few people that had their firm pay for their law school (Harvard, BU, or Suffolk) while also paying their salary. I think it usually took them 4-5 years. I am not sure how common these arrangements might be in California, but it's worth looking into.


Tinman,

To your first comment, I know exactly what it takes to work while attending school. I worked full-time while doing my undergraduate full-time at night, and worked full-time while attending grad school in the evenings.

I have never attended college full or part-time at any level without also working full-time.

The companies I worked for paid for both of my degrees while I worked for them (tuition reimbursement).

If you mean a company that will pay you while you attend law school full-time instead of working, I hadn't heard of that, but would imagine those are about as rare an arrangement as becoming a lawyer without going to law school.

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smartin
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby smartin » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:32 pm

haha my boss said I go this route.

He was in the room when my LSAT score came out and asked "Why do you want to go to law school?"
"Because I want to be a lawyer," I answered.

He then told me I should move to CA and apprentice instead.

I ignored him of course.

09042014
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:35 pm

Only an idiot would pay for patent prosecution from some random dude who passed the CA bar.

Cloud9
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Cloud9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:38 pm

TheTopBloke wrote:You're operating under some false knowledge. I have legal experience and I have looked into similar processes. The problem is under the Cal Bar rules, you must work in a legal office for 4 years. You might as well go to law school for 3 years. The work experience has to be thoroughly documented, it's not just about working for a couple of hours with a lawyers or a judge. And think about it, unless you have some extraordinary circumstances, what legal practice is going to waste their money on you when you have not passed the bar, and lawyers across the country are desperate for jobs?


From the blog site of someone who is a lawyer with no law school.

"Yes I believe it was 18 hours per week of actual study and 6 hours required in the presence of the lawyer."

How many law students across the country graduated last years with tens of thousands of dollars in debt and no job? ;)

There are currently plenty of unemployed lawyers all over the country who paid good money for their education, and then there's this working lawyer with a backlog of cases http://becomingalawyerwithoutlawschool.blogspot.com

I have to admit that this is pretty funny.

If nothing else, maybe taking the Baby Bar before going to LS might be a good idea.

Ouch!
Law Grads Who Fail The Bar... http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... spring_ba/


"Yakowitz analyzed the results of a 1993 Census Bureau study and found that law grads who never passed the bar earned a median salary of $48,000—about $20,000 less than similarly situated lawyers.

Broken down by age group, the median salary of law grads who never passed the bar was $32,000 before they reached the age of 30 (compared to $48,000 for lawyers and $35,600 for college grads), $48,000 from the ages of 30 to 39 (compared to $64,000 for lawyers and $42,000 for college grads), $54,000 between the ages of 40 and 49 (compared to $83,600 for lawyers and $46,250 for college grads), and $62,849 between the ages of 50 and 59 (compared to $86,400 for lawyers and $48,416 for college grads).

Forty-nine percent of those studied who never passed the bar ended up in legal-related jobs. Other common job categories were managers and executives (12 percent), and accountants, auditors, human resources, and other management-related occupations (8 percent).

Despite the resilience of the law grads who never passed the bar, Yakowitz suggests their law school experience wasn’t worth the cost. The extra years of education don't begin to pay dividends until later in their careers, she says, and likely isn’t enough to “pay back” harms in terms of earlier depressed earnings, lesser employment stability, and high education debt.

The results, she says, may provide a lesson to law schools.

“Legal education may be a disservice for the significant group of students that never pass a bar exam—a group whose composition can be predicted fairly accurately before they’ve even begun law school,” she says. “At the very least, law schools owe it to their prospective students to provide candid information about the risks of attending law school.”

The study was based in part on the After the JD study following 5,000 graduates beginning in 2000. Other sources were the 1993 Census Bureau study, including those who went on to law school; a 1994 bar passage study; California bar statistical reports; and new field research on nearly 200 law grads who failed a law exam."

Cloud9
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Cloud9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:39 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Only an idiot would pay for patent prosecution from some random dude who passed the CA bar.


That would be the CA Bar and the Patent Bar. ;)

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Helmholtz
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:40 pm

OP, don't start threads anymore when you've already made up your own mind on the subject.

Anonymous Loser
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Anonymous Loser » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:45 pm

Cloud9 wrote:No special requirements are needed to become an attorney without law school in Virginia or Washington as far as I could determine.


No. See Washington State Court Rules, Admission to Practice Rules, Rule 6; Virginia Board of Bar Examiners, Law Program Rule, available at http://www.vbbe.state.va.us/pdf/LawReaderRules.pdf.

09042014
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:50 pm

Cloud9 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Only an idiot would pay for patent prosecution from some random dude who passed the CA bar.


That would be the CA Bar and the Patent Bar. ;)


No seriously you won't find many clients. You'll be limited to scamming people looking to patent their one invention with their life savings.

Cloud9
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Cloud9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:53 pm

Helmholtz wrote:OP, don't start threads anymore when you've already made up your own mind on the subject.


What makes you think I've made up my own mind? It's a discussion. I proposed a course of action, people raise objections, I address the objections, other objections are raised, etc.

That doesn't mean I've made up my mind about anything. Just a discussion.

Check this out from the ABA Journal web site. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _year_ever

Is it true that only 40% of those who go to law school pass the Bar and only 50% of JDs work as lawyers? If so, wow, pretty bad numbers.

the lantern
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby the lantern » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:54 pm

Cloud9 wrote:Check this out: http://becomingalawyerwithoutlawschool.blogspot.com/

Q: what are the challenges you faced becoming a lawyer without law school?

A: Let me qualify this a little. I became a lawyer with no law school degree. I was admitted into law school without having to take the LSAT because I had passed the Baby Bar with no formal legal education.

That having been said, the biggest challenge I had was the ordeal of having to clerk for an attorney and not get paid, and then working in a Home Depot. at night for 10 bucks an hour. Other challenges were all the naysayers who kept telling me how I would never get a job, that I couldn't possibly be smart enough to pass the Bar with no law school degree, etc.

The funny thing is, I make more than those very same people who still work for firms like Lewis Blah Blah and Gibson Dunce and Blah Blah, so my revenge was proving them all wrong. There were more challenges, but being a Marine, it was nothing compared to basic training.


This has to be a fake blog, because I am a Marine, and recruit training was not hard. Someone who has been there would not say something like this.

Fake or not, I don't know why you'd want to do this. Like others said, why wouldn't you go to some TTT for free and work at the same time so you'd at least have the credentials? I'm sure it will be absolutely wonderful answering the "...so where did you go to school?" question EVERY SINGLE TIME you send out a resume...
Last edited by the lantern on Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymous Loser
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Anonymous Loser » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:56 pm

Image

CyLaw
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby CyLaw » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:57 pm

the lantern wrote:This has to be a fake blog, because I am a Marine, and recruit training was not hard. Someone who has been there would not say something like this.


No. it appears to be a real blog. The guy also has a normal website were he takes pride in his becoming an attorney before getting a JD (yes he eventually got a JD), and he has an avvo account.

the lantern
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby the lantern » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:03 pm

You know what OP... if you are so gung ho about this idea, why don't you go and try to be a unique snowflake and let us know how far it gets you :)

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TheTopBloke
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby TheTopBloke » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:04 pm

I suggest you do exactly as you want to do. Don't bother with law school, or the LSAT, or even working at a law firm for the experience. I suggest you take the patent bar.

If your other degrees have not afforded you happiness and wealth in life, then why would the law degree be any different?

In fact, maybe you should not even consider taking the bar at all.

Cloud9
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Cloud9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:05 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Cloud9 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Only an idiot would pay for patent prosecution from some random dude who passed the CA bar.


That would be the CA Bar and the Patent Bar. ;)


No seriously you won't find many clients. You'll be limited to scamming people looking to patent their one invention with their life savings.


So, are you saying that a patent agent who didn't attend law school has more opportunities than a patent lawyer who didn't attend law school? Or perhaps that patent agents don't have any opportunities, or they do, but if they passed the Bar they're worse off? :)

Just trying to understand your perspective. :)

"“Engineers often decide on becoming patent agents because it broadens their career opportunities,” Dighton says. ”It’s diverse and fascinating work and keeps you on the cutting edge of the engineering profession.” Patent agents are sought after by law firms and corporations."

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:12 pm

TheTopBloke wrote:I suggest you do exactly as you want to do. Don't bother with law school, or the LSAT, or even working at a law firm for the experience. I suggest you take the patent bar.

If your other degrees have not afforded you happiness and wealth in life, then why would the law degree be any different?

In fact, maybe you should not even consider taking the bar at all.

I'm thinking he's at the bar now.

My guess is that this is some elaborate California non-ABA troll trying to drum up business. He's put quite a bit of work into his background for us today and trying damn hard to come off as credible. Unfortunately, like all the trolls before him, he comes off like an overzealous, biased shill.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:14 pm

Cloud9 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Cloud9 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Only an idiot would pay for patent prosecution from some random dude who passed the CA bar.


That would be the CA Bar and the Patent Bar. ;)


No seriously you won't find many clients. You'll be limited to scamming people looking to patent their one invention with their life savings.


So, are you saying that a patent agent who didn't attend law school has more opportunities than a patent lawyer who didn't attend law school? Or perhaps that patent agents don't have any opportunities, or they do, but if they passed the Bar they're worse off? :)

Just trying to understand your perspective. :)

"“Engineers often decide on becoming patent agents because it broadens their career opportunities,” Dighton says. ”It’s diverse and fascinating work and keeps you on the cutting edge of the engineering profession.” Patent agents are sought after by law firms and corporations."

:roll:
Feel free to add douchey to my above characteristic list.

09042014
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:16 pm

Cloud9 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Cloud9 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Only an idiot would pay for patent prosecution from some random dude who passed the CA bar.


That would be the CA Bar and the Patent Bar. ;)


No seriously you won't find many clients. You'll be limited to scamming people looking to patent their one invention with their life savings.


So, are you saying that a patent agent who didn't attend law school has more opportunities than a patent lawyer who didn't attend law school? Or perhaps that patent agents don't have any opportunities, or they do, but if they passed the Bar they're worse off? :)

Just trying to understand your perspective. :)

"“Engineers often decide on becoming patent agents because it broadens their career opportunities,” Dighton says. ”It’s diverse and fascinating work and keeps you on the cutting edge of the engineering profession.” Patent agents are sought after by law firms and corporations."


Patent agent is a different job than patient attorney, though they can do the same work. If you want to be a patent agent, I think that would be a great idea. You can self study the patent bar and be ready in 3-4 months. But even then I wouldn't suggest starting your own business with no experience. You should work for a firm for a while to learn how to do it right, then start off on your own.

Firms hire patent agents all the time. They don't hire attorneys without a degree.

Cloud9
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Re: Becoming a Patent Attorney / Lawyer without Law School

Postby Cloud9 » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:18 pm

TheTopBloke wrote:
If your other degrees have not afforded you happiness and wealth in life, then why would the law degree be any different?


Hey TTB, I know plenty of lawyers, doctors, and professionals from all walks of life. Attendance of any school / program has little to do with happiness. Some of the happiest people I know are government workers retired in their early 50s on full pensions.

As for the wealth part, I live in a decent area with some of the usual suspects, doctors, lawyers, engineers. Though the wealthiest around here are: a car dealer, a porta potty businessman, a dump truck owner, and a few doctors. The engineers (civil, electrical), lawyers, and wide variety of educated professionals do ok, but none are wealthy by any means. Not even the JD/MBA ex-McKinsey lawyer who used to work at Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz making good money for a while.

From my observations, happiness and wealth have little to do with degrees, education, etc.




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