2Little 2Late

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2018)

How successful have you been at forcing yourself to care about grades?

lol
6
13%
... I mean I still need to graduate... I guess...
12
26%
I want to maintain some semblance of dignity
19
41%
I am a clerkship gunner and/or incorrigible perfectionist
9
20%
 
Total votes: 46

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:42 pm

Lol damn guys my "long" outlines were 30 pages tops, and I used a ton of bullet points

I swear by making own outlines though. The tedious process of organizing, if done properly, really helps you see the forest. And it's great review.

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Attorney-at-Birdlaw
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby Attorney-at-Birdlaw » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:59 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:Lol damn guys my "long" outlines were 30 pages tops, and I used a ton of bullet points

I swear by making own outlines though. The tedious process of organizing, if done properly, really helps you see the forest. And it's great review.


Control+F allowed on open book exam, figured go big or go home.

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landshoes
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby landshoes » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:22 pm

IDK what class a 30 page outline would even really work for; like, if it could, I could just remember all of it and then it would be better to have like a 2 page outline that just jogs my memory

the classes that need a 60+ page outline genuinely need the outline, like, there's too much material to remember

trying to squash things into short outlines is the kind of thing that drives me insane with "should I put it in or not" and I would just do better with a syllabus and my casebook in case I have a "shit what was that case" moment

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landshoes
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby landshoes » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:23 pm

what I'm saying is that I have a freakish memory but I am total and complete shit at any form of organization

probably because I use my memory as a crutch, but whatever. YMMV x 100000

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby PeanutsNJam » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:26 pm

Personally, I only ever brought in 12 pages or less. My initial "long" outline is must my review process and way of identifying what was important or relevant.

I think if your outline is super long, you're including too many case facts and court rationale. For most exams, case facts are irrelevant, and the court rationale (or reasoning behind rules) should be internalized because, while they're not directly applicable on an exam, they inform you about the how to construct arguments.

At the end of the day all you really need is the BLL, maybe a landmark case or two, and some special shit your professor explicitly told you was important.

This doesn't apply to weird public policy exams or things like that. This is only for issue spotters.

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Hikikomorist
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby Hikikomorist » Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:43 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:Personally, I only ever brought in 12 pages or less. My initial "long" outline is must my review process and way of identifying what was important or relevant.

I think if your outline is super long, you're including too many case facts and court rationale. For most exams, case facts are irrelevant, and the court rationale (or reasoning behind rules) should be internalized because, while they're not directly applicable on an exam, they inform you about the how to construct arguments.

At the end of the day all you really need is the BLL, maybe a landmark case or two, and some special shit your professor explicitly told you was important.

This doesn't apply to weird public policy exams or things like that. This is only for issue spotters.

I like this advice.

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landshoes
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby landshoes » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:42 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:Personally, I only ever brought in 12 pages or less. My initial "long" outline is must my review process and way of identifying what was important or relevant.

I think if your outline is super long, you're including too many case facts and court rationale. For most exams, case facts are irrelevant, and the court rationale (or reasoning behind rules) should be internalized because, while they're not directly applicable on an exam, they inform you about the how to construct arguments.

At the end of the day all you really need is the BLL, maybe a landmark case or two, and some special shit your professor explicitly told you was important.

This doesn't apply to weird public policy exams or things like that. This is only for issue spotters.


Doesn't the rule applied to facts make a case more useful for analogical reasoning on an issue spotter? I think that sometimes you want to be able to effectively say "this is like Ybarra because x but different because y, and y is important because it's part of the rationale for the rule laid out in Ybarra" or whatever.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby PeanutsNJam » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:16 pm

landshoes wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Personally, I only ever brought in 12 pages or less. My initial "long" outline is must my review process and way of identifying what was important or relevant.

I think if your outline is super long, you're including too many case facts and court rationale. For most exams, case facts are irrelevant, and the court rationale (or reasoning behind rules) should be internalized because, while they're not directly applicable on an exam, they inform you about the how to construct arguments.

At the end of the day all you really need is the BLL, maybe a landmark case or two, and some special shit your professor explicitly told you was important.

This doesn't apply to weird public policy exams or things like that. This is only for issue spotters.


Doesn't the rule applied to facts make a case more useful for analogical reasoning on an issue spotter? I think that sometimes you want to be able to effectively say "this is like Ybarra because x but different because y, and y is important because it's part of the rationale for the rule laid out in Ybarra" or whatever.


I think that's valuable but I don't think it's worth flipping through an outline for. You either know the case off the top of your head and can use it in an argument or not; I would never advise someone to flip through their 60 page outline in hopes of finding am analogous case. My professors have also said you don't need the name; identifying facts is enough. "Similar to the case when a scale fell on a woman due to the shock from fireworks" will net you as many points as "like in Palagraf..."

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landshoes
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby landshoes » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:43 pm

oh yeah I think we're reaching a "we can ctrl+f" situation; if you can't maybe it's not as useful (but maybe you have it indexed well enough that it just takes a minute to find a given case)

although, I did bring a supplement (book) to my civpro exam and used it for one thing, and for that one thing it was super valuable

I suspect that you have a better memory than most people so you assume people will remember the facts of stuff but people might remember "oh there was a case" and that could help them I think

IDK, again, I have an insane memory so that's really mostly relevant to me when I don't want to study or read for a class but want the info at hand for a test

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IsThisForReal
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby IsThisForReal » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:47 pm

Take home exams ftw

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unsweetened
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby unsweetened » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:48 pm

I think it depends on how the exam is graded. In crim law, we got points for case names. In torts, it didn't matter. Part of the reason my crim outline was so long. If you spot the issue, cases should be grouped under each fork of the analysis.

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Attorney-at-Birdlaw
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby Attorney-at-Birdlaw » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:44 pm

unsweetened wrote: I think it depends on how the exam is graded. In crim law, we got points for case names. In torts, it didn't matter. Part of the reason my crim outline was so long. If you spot the issue, cases should be grouped under each fork of the analysis.


Giving points out for case names seems ridiculous in my eyes.


IsThisForReal wrote:Take home exams ftw


Any concerns of gunners grouping up to boost their score? Know some people were murmuring some concerns about that but I think it's a bit far fetched.

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IsThisForReal
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby IsThisForReal » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:09 pm

No

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unsweetened
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby unsweetened » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Attorney-at-Birdlaw wrote:
unsweetened wrote: I think it depends on how the exam is graded. In crim law, we got points for case names. In torts, it didn't matter. Part of the reason my crim outline was so long. If you spot the issue, cases should be grouped under each fork of the analysis.


Giving points out for case names seems ridiculous in my eyes.

I agree, but that's how that particular exam was graded. The rationale is "You have an outline, so there's no excuse not to know the case name or be able to look it up."

03282016
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[s][/s]

Postby 03282016 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:04 am

Last edited by 03282016 on Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Joscellin
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby Joscellin » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:12 am

Attorney-at-Birdlaw wrote:
IsThisForReal wrote:Take home exams ftw


Any concerns of gunners grouping up to boost their score? Know some people were murmuring some concerns about that but I think it's a bit far fetched.


Dumbest gunners ever, if so. Grouping up just hurts at the top of the curve. I suppose it could be helpful for folks gunning for median?

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zhenders
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby zhenders » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:38 am

Gah I mean I just can't imagine anyone doing this. Can you imagine knowing that your entire career depends upon everyone in that group keeping their mouths shut for the next 3 years about having done that? SOMEONE would be dumb and tell a trusted friend at some point; all it would take is one person to get the whole group expelled/bar banned. Totally crazy sauce.

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landshoes
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby landshoes » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:53 am

that plus the stress of making sure your tests don't seem too similar despite you all putting down the same stuff

plus you won't actually know if you're going to be helped by the other people -- they could be dead weight because it's something you already know really well, and then you're helping a bunch of people do as well as you at great risk to yourself

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Big Red
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby Big Red » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:58 am

are these hypothetical people we're complaining about or is this something people have actually done this year? I think for reasons that we've come up w while hyper-rationalizing this show you why it isn't a good idea: the risk doesn't make sense given the minimal value added.

it's my experience that study groups add about 2 ounces of confusion for every 3 ounces of clarity, and I'd imagine that would be worse in a situation like this where people are stressed

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zhenders
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby zhenders » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:19 am

Yeah, thankfully this is all hypothetical. There's definitely an aspect of trying to convince myself that there AREN'T people gaming the system in this way at our school.

I'm with you 100% on study groups. Some of the smartest people I go to school with are study groupers, but it just doesn't work for me; I don't like the 3 forward, 2 back game you pointed out.

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landshoes
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby landshoes » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:23 am

it's hard to find a good study group because you need them to know / understand things you don't in order for you to get value out of it, and they need the same thing

there are only 2 people who I can study with where it makes sense for both of us and isn't just both of us being like "yeah, got that, yeah, duh" or one of us being so far behind that the other person is basically teaching them a lesson

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unsweetened
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby unsweetened » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:36 am

Last semester I was in a small study group with two random people in my class that I'm not friends with and it worked out okay. It was pretty easy to stay focused on the material and not have sidebar things since we had nothing else in common.

This semester I'm in another study group with two people that I know did well. Sometimes its good to hear a doctrine explained in plain English and it also helps being the one that articulates the doctrine since it helps master the material. The biggest benefit for me isn't actually talking about the material, but making sure that I stay on a schedule with outlining a certain amount each week.

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Hikikomorist
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby Hikikomorist » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:42 am

I don't like seeming dumb or generally being friendly, so study groups aren't for me.

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leslieknope
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby leslieknope » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:05 am

I'm a proponent of having a super-long outline as study/review material and a shorter attack outline with just the BLL/legal tests. The length of both depends on the class- my main CivPro outline as 80 pages long and my attack outline was 16 pages long, but for another class my main outline was 40 pages and my attack outline was 5 pages worth of handwritten flowchart. IMO the best way is to adjust depending on the class.

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KMart
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Re: Rainbows and Sm1Les: Everything Is Totally Fine

Postby KMart » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:09 am

zhenders wrote:There's definitely an aspect of trying to convince myself that there AREN'T people gaming the system in this way at our school.

I'm with you 100% on study groups. Some of the smartest people I go to school with are study groupers, but it just doesn't work for me

I don't like study groups either. Occasionally I'll jump in a friends and sit and discuss but I think I get so much more out of figuring stuff out on my own.

I also don't think people are gaming the system at our school; maybe I'm just willfully blind though.




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