What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2018)

What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Poll ended at Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:07 am

Columbia with $40,000
20
47%
NYU with $50,000
23
53%
 
Total votes: 43

bklynlady
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby bklynlady » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:50 am

Great calculation! And in the course of life $29K is meaningless. Therefore, just choose the school you like the best, "like" meaning where you would feel most comfortable which includes which neighborhood you feel like spending the next 3 years of your life in...

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smaug
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby smaug » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:53 am

I actually agree with Brut that 30k is significant.

I don't think the CLS coa numbers are a great metric (they are high—you can borrow far less without living like a pauper) but maybe that's true for NYU as well?

At CLS your actual COA will depend largely on housing. If you want a single, it'll be really expensive. If you don't, you're probably fine.
Last edited by smaug on Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

03152016
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:01 pm

bklynlady wrote:Great calculation! And in the course of life $29K is meaningless. Therefore, just choose the school you like the best, "like" meaning where you would feel most comfortable which includes which neighborhood you feel like spending the next 3 years of your life in...

no, 29,804 is not meaningless
this isn't monopoly money. that's a substantial amount of money

also, op has made it clear that biglaw is not the endgame
that makes it even more important to minimize costs

bklynlady
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby bklynlady » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:07 pm

Look, I just disagree with you. Over the course of 3 years and certainly in the scheme of an entire lifetime 30K is not a significant amount of money - certainly not enough to make this decision one way or the other. Happiness and comfortability for 3 years is certainly worth 30K. Maybe I'm from NYC and am used to life being very expensive, but I feel this falls under the category of "penny wise and pound foolish." This decision should not be made on the basis of 30K - its just not enough to be "decision worthy." OP should make his/her decision on where they feel they will be happier and attain their goals.

DK21
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby DK21 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:11 pm

bklynlady wrote:Look, I just disagree with you. Over the course of 3 years and certainly in the scheme of an entire lifetime 30K is not a significant amount of money - certainly not enough to make this decision one way or the other. Happiness and comfortability for 3 years is certainly worth 30K. Maybe I'm from NYC and am used to life being very expensive, but I feel this falls under the category of "penny wise and pound foolish." This decision should not be made on the basis of 30K - its just not enough to be "decision worthy." OP should make his/her decision on where they feel they will be happier and attain their goals.

30k may be meaningless, but so is the difference between the schools. If you like both and would be happy at both, go where it'd be cheaper I think. How much marginal happiness are you really buying with that extra 30k?

bklynlady
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby bklynlady » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:15 pm

Thats the decision OP has to make. There is a big difference between living in the Village and living uptown at Columbia. Maybe b/c I'm from NYC so I'm more in tune with the differences; maybe for someone moving from out of town to NYC for the first time probably sees it differently...all I'm saying is its not a money decision, in my opinion, in this case...

DK21
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby DK21 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:21 pm

bklynlady wrote:Thats the decision OP has to make. There is a big difference between living in the Village and living uptown at Columbia. Maybe b/c I'm from NYC so I'm more in tune with the differences; maybe for someone moving from out of town to NYC for the first time probably sees it differently...all I'm saying is its not a money decision, in my opinion, in this case...

Just for the record I'm from NYC too. I mean everybody has different connections to different neighborhoods, some positive some not.

I think the tough thing for the OP (and I'm in a similar situation myself) is you have to quantify the differences in what you're getting. It's hard to say with any kind of certainty you'll be much happier at NYU based just on admitted students days, and likewise with CLS. So is that uncertainty worth 30k? I don't know.

Like I really don't know, I haven't sent in my own deposits yet ha.

bklynlady
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby bklynlady » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:27 pm

Yeah, well I guess I just don't think the money in this case should cloud the decision-making process. And, my deadline is today with NYU; decided to go with CLS....

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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:38 pm

bklynlady wrote:Look, I just disagree with you. Over the course of 3 years and certainly in the scheme of an entire lifetime 30K is not a significant amount of money - certainly not enough to make this decision one way or the other. Happiness and comfortability for 3 years is certainly worth 30K. Maybe I'm from NYC and am used to life being very expensive, but I feel this falls under the category of "penny wise and pound foolish." This decision should not be made on the basis of 30K - its just not enough to be "decision worthy." OP should make his/her decision on where they feel they will be happier and attain their goals.

i never said op should attend a school where she can't obtain her goals
and i never said op should make a "pound foolish" decision, that is, one with lower expected value

columbia and nyu are substantially similar schools in terms of outcomes
there is no goal that i can think of that you can "attain" from one and cannot attain from another. so i reject this assertion
sure, cls probably has some advantage in biglaw. but the advantage is narrow. nyu had 88% oci success last year, and that excludes mass mail, networking, and referrals
and yes, nyu probably has some advantage in pi. but this advantage is also narrow. 1/8th of the class at cls went onto pi. it simply isn't true that you won't find pi students at cls

so the "pound foolish" and "attain their goals" arguments are entirely unpersuasive to me

turning now to your argument about fit

you claim that $30k is a meaningless amount of money. it's not "decision worthy"
you are wrong about this assertion, in my view
$30k is a new car. or to frame it a different way, $30k is a year or two of debt payments on a gov't salary (which op indicated may be a goal). $30k is real, actual money, and absolutely can and should be a significant factor in the decision. it is certainly decision worthy.
you also seem to think i believe that categorically $30k is not enough to overcome lifestyle or fit concerns
that is incorrect. i do not believe these things.

what i do believe is the following

first, op has not indicated a preference for one over the other, and has focused on outcomes
which indicates to me that lifestyle is not her primary concern

second, very likely, even if op does have a preference, she will most likely not have a compelling reason to incur $30k additional debt due to that preference
they are both metro ny schools. and the student bodies will be substantially similar in intellect, background, and aspirations (with the subtle exception noted above of having slightly more biglaw culture at cls, and slightly more pi culture at nyu)
having worked for several years in greenwich village and morningside heights, and being quite familiar with those neighborhoods in particular, i can say that while these neighborhoods are indeed quite different, they are both city living. the divide between the two is real, but orders of magnitude less than between, say, nyu and duke, or cls and berkeley (even with these examples, $30k for lifestyle/culture is highly highly questionable, excepting extraordinary circumstances, a fortiori i can't think of a situation where i choose nyu over cls or vice versa based on culture/lifestyle alone in the face of a $30k difference)

bklynlady
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby bklynlady » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:59 pm

Ok, whatever you say. Too intense for me... there is no right or wrong, its all opinion. Have a wonderful day!

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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:07 pm

it's fine that you're trying to rationalize your decision, but pretending that $30k is meaningless and that the schools being substantially similar is just my "opinion" does a great disservice to readers of this thread, who are here for accurate information and informed opinions about law schools
i recommend that you not reply to choosing-type threads if your plan is to make assertions such as the ones you've made in this thread, and then dismiss all criticisms as "just your opinion"

bklynlady
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby bklynlady » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:08 pm

Just curious, which school are you going to?

03152016
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:09 pm

nyu

03152016
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:09 pm

are you trying to say that because i go to nyu, i must be making up my facts? or that i cannot offer good advice? i'm not understanding your point

DK21
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby DK21 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:11 pm

Brut wrote:are you trying to say that because i go to nyu, i must be making up my facts? or that i cannot offer good advice? i'm not understanding your point

So much for NYU being laid back.....

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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:15 pm

DK21 wrote:
Brut wrote:are you trying to say that because i go to nyu, i must be making up my facts? or that i cannot offer good advice? i'm not understanding your point

So much for NYU being laid back.....

ya asking bklnlady to clarify her argument is pretty hardcore right

DK21
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby DK21 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:24 pm

Brut wrote:
DK21 wrote:
Brut wrote:are you trying to say that because i go to nyu, i must be making up my facts? or that i cannot offer good advice? i'm not understanding your point

So much for NYU being laid back.....

ya asking bklnlady to clarify her argument is pretty hardcore right

You're posts are reading as super aggressive. You've made your argument about the importance of cost, we get it. I don't think asking where you go when you're offering advice on which school to attend should be such a problem - certainly not in comparison to telling someone what forums they should and should not post in. Take it down a notch.

bluesteel
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby bluesteel » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:26 pm

This thread is starting to look pretty ridiculous. You guys are making me laugh.... Ok, so I take bklynldy's point that in the grand scheme of things 30k is not huge. It is not peanuts though. I think it's fairer to say that if you are willing to go into ridiculous debt (as many of us are) then ridiculous debt + 30k is still in the same realm of manageability as plain old ridiculous debt. (If that makes any sense).

Like most people in my position, I will either go biglaw, (in which case I can afford to repay my debts eventually) or PI and make good use of the schools LRAP. I am starting to think that Columbia might be the more conservative choice job-wise, which perhaps wouldnt be a bad thing. I don't buy the whole "NYU is so PI focused" thing, and if I end up going in that direction I'm sure I can do it successfully at Columbia. If biglaw, then maybe Columbia has a slight edge, and I can leave to do something less soul-killing if necessary. Like many people who haven't wanted to be a lawyer since age 5, I'm sure I'll figure it out! My specific interests will guide me in the right direction....

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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:41 pm

@dk21
nothing about these posts are "super aggressive", unless you haven't been on tls for very long
you should think about trying to contribute meaningfully to this thread instead of playing hall monitor. we don't need "dk21" to police the on-topics, thanks tho

@blue
remember that it isn't the marketing that matters here. i don't buy the "nyu is all about pi" thing either
but the culture is real, simply because of the number of pi students, plus the number of pi scholarships, and things like the pilc fair and a robust pilc office, and the amount of pi programming

obv that's not intended as a comparison to cls since i don't go there, maybe a cls student can chime in

DK21
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby DK21 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:49 pm

Brut wrote:@dk21
nothing about these posts are "super aggressive", unless you haven't been on tls for very long
you should think about trying to contribute meaningfully to this thread instead of playing hall monitor. we don't need "dk21" to police the on-topics, thanks tho

@blue
remember that it isn't the marketing that matters here. i don't buy the "nyu is all about pi" thing either
but the culture is real, simply because of the number of pi students, plus the number of pi scholarships, and things like the pilc fair and a robust pilc office, and the amount of pi programming

obv that's not intended as a comparison to cls since i don't go there, maybe a cls student can chime in

You literally told someone to not post in choosing forums. I'm the hall monitor?

03152016
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:52 pm

ok, we get it already, nuance isn't your strong suit
let's get back on topic

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smaug
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby smaug » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:57 pm

the chill, sociable bros of NYU

03152016
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby 03152016 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:01 pm

i wonder how the 'nyu is chill, cls is uptight' thing got started
either way, part of my point itt is that the cultural differences are likely to be slim to none outside of the biglaw/pi thing

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smaug
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby smaug » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:07 pm

Brut wrote:i wonder how the 'nyu is chill, cls is uptight' thing got started
either way, part of my point itt is that the cultural differences are likely to be slim to none outside of the biglaw/pi thing


the PI thing is also mainly farcical once you move past the named scholarships—

we don't host the PILC fair but obviously everyone participates

there is the HRIP and other summer programs for public interest

the differences between what counts as a "clinic" and an "externship" hides that both schools have almost identical programs

There is something different about the PI culture, though—maybe we have fewer "true believers" but students didn't protest when Harold Koh was here/didn't throw a fit like NYU students do.

I think NYU has a bit of an edge if you're interested in doing stuff with the UN, and maybe has more prestigious professors because they're willing to spend more money on that. NYU has an edge in tax. I think CLS might have an edge in some securities stuff and in arbitration stuff.

Tiny differences, though, too small to make a decision on.

More importantly, NYU's law revue cuts people and they elect their writers, whereas CLS is a talent blind mess of love. This is obviously why we are the superior institution.

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Skool
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Re: What would you pick: Columbia v. NYU

Postby Skool » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:46 pm

Bryan Stevenson's habeas/death penalty clinic is a big difference. So is Guggenheim's Family defense clinic. Both give you serious substantive experience representing clients in and out of court.

There really is a clinical difference between Columbia and NYU and it's not just marketing.

I'm sure there is a coke vs. Pepsi thing going on re people being uptight or whatever .




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