Michigan Law c/o 2018

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2018)

Which ASW will you attend?

March 19-21
24
34%
April 9-11
29
41%
Neither
17
24%
 
Total votes: 70

AquafiNa
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby AquafiNa » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:01 am

MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Anyone seriously re-thinking matriculating to Michigan based on this new employment data?


Nope!

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tincan678
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby tincan678 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:29 am

MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Anyone seriously re-thinking matriculating to Michigan based on this new employment data?


Yes. Which is crazy because Michigan was my number one school for a very long time.

It's not just the employment numbers though-- Michigan's consistent drop in both rankings and outcomes basically falls in line with my impression from ASW. Both admissions and financial aid were incredibly incompetent and the law school has turned into a hotbed for oppressive liberalism (I consider myself liberal and I still felt incredibly uncomfortable there). Zearfoss became head of career planning in 2010, which means she was in charge during OCI of 2011 and 2012, so this steady decline in employment numbers for the class of 2013 and 2014 both happened as a result of her changes. And given this year's ASW, where one panelist literally said she "hopes her significant other will strike it rich to pay off her debt," I don't think Zearfoss realizes how badly she has screwed up or has any plan for changing her approach.

Don't go to Michigan if you have other T14 options on the table. If you want to experience Ann Arbor, take time off and work for a startup or get a degree in the Ford School or Ross. The current disaster that is the law school is not worth it, even though Ann Arbor really is the greatest place in the world for higher education.

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Winston1984
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:44 am

sneezus wrote:
city123 wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:
Firms don't necessarily have a set amount of associates they want from each school, but they want to get a representative sample (i.e. not all Harvard). They also want to maintain relationships with top schools and they spend a lot of money interviewing students, so it wouldn't make sense to then give no offers to Mich students. The big firms consistently call back about the same number of Michigan students each year. Sure that may vary slightly, but a firm like Skadden is absolutely not going to just no-offer Michigan students. (this is coming from a 3L who spent 2 summers at firms and knows plenty of 3Ls going to Skadden). Also I'm not trying to sell you on Michigan--I could care less if anyone comes here. But as a 3L i'm super bored.

Since you are bored, mind telling us what you think of the latest employment stats? As bleak as they seem? Good way to explain them?


I can only speak from personal experience, but of the 30ish people I consider my good friends here, all but two has a job at this point. I know people in my section who didn't get a job through OCI, so fall of 2L felt bleak for some. But those people mass mailed smaller markets or went full-force into PI to find good jobs. I know people who aren't in their preferred market, but I also know a lot more people who settled for a job in a market they didn't love and then hustled to get a better job in their target market. OCP is worthless--even worse than other top schools in my opinion. But Michigan alums are super helpful and make hustling easier.

And I do think the PI preference is a real thing. I would say close to 1/3 of my friends only went the PI route (and some of them were at the top of the class). You don't have to have that good of grades at Michigan to get a good DA/PD job as long as you get some experience in law school.

Ultimately you will get a job regardless of your grades as long as you are strategic, constantly working to get one, realize it's all on you (OCP won't help you), and flexible (i.e. willing to broaden your geographic search).

(And again, I'm a 3L. I don't know enough 2Ls to have an idea of how they are feeling about the job market. Maybe it was harder for them. Except they got the benefit of Michigan bumping up the GPA curve substantially so that seems hard to believe.)


thanks for your perspective; this is really helpful

+1

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Skool
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby Skool » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:47 am

tincan678 wrote:
MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Anyone seriously re-thinking matriculating to Michigan based on this new employment data?


Yes. Which is crazy because Michigan was my number one school for a very long time.

It's not just the employment numbers though-- Michigan's consistent drop in both rankings and outcomes basically falls in line with my impression from ASW. Both admissions and financial aid were incredibly incompetent and the law school has turned into a hotbed for oppressive liberalism (I consider myself liberal and I still felt incredibly uncomfortable there). Zearfoss became head of career planning in 2010, which means she was in charge during OCI of 2011 and 2012, so this steady decline in employment numbers for the class of 2013 and 2014 both happened as a result of her changes. And given this year's ASW, where one panelist literally said she "hopes her significant other will strike it rich to pay off her debt," I don't think Zearfoss realizes how badly she has screwed up or has any plan for changing her approach.

Don't go to Michigan if you have other T14 options on the table. If you want to experience Ann Arbor, take time off and work for a startup or get a degree in the Ford School or Ross. The current disaster that is the law school is not worth it, even though Ann Arbor really is the greatest place in the world for higher education.
I lol'd. I'm sure everyone at Michigan will miss you.

queerqueg
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby queerqueg » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:53 am

It's a little dramatic but if you're biglaw or bust, michigan is not a good choice atm.

BillClinton Jr
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby BillClinton Jr » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:59 am

MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Anyone seriously re-thinking matriculating to Michigan based on this new employment data?


+1

qwertyTLS
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby qwertyTLS » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:14 am

it's not JUST this new employment data though. it's a trend - and that is definitely making me re-consider michigan.

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Dee32
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby Dee32 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:38 am

The idea that firms and other organizations just dislike hiring Michigan students despite it being a perennial top ten law school and having similar inputs as peer schools is amusing to me. Reputation rankings of schools by lawyers and judges rank Michigan right up there with the rest of the T14 (T6 included). Maybe some do not find these surveys persuasive, but they are far more persuasive to me than the conjectures of prospective law students and current law students on an anonymous message board. I also have worked at a V10 in NYC for two and a half years and know that the attorneys and partners (at least those who I've talked to about schools) hold Michigan in high regard.

I think a big problem is that with large PI/government figures, we don't know how desirable these jobs are, so people on TLS assume the worst. TLS is also prone to making large generalizations, drawing conclusions based on incomplete data, and making granular year-to-year distinctions between top schools that practitioners don't really make.

Michigan may have issues, like oversized class sizes and a subpar career services office, but the idea promulgated on TLS that Michigan is a festering TTT seems off base. It's a top school with no home market that ships students off to big law in the major markets, to federal government work, to clerkships, and to public interest work. I actually like that Michigan is more than a biglaw mill.

I'll be starting next month and I'm very excited.

queerqueg
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby queerqueg » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:45 am

Dee32 wrote:The idea that firms and other organizations just dislike hiring Michigan students despite it being a perennial top ten law school and having similar inputs as peer schools is amusing to me. Reputation rankings of schools by lawyers and judges rank Michigan right up there with the rest of the T14 (T6 included). Maybe some do not find these surveys persuasive, but they are far more persuasive to me than the conjectures of prospective law students and current law students on an anonymous message board. I also have worked at a V10 in NYC for two and a half years and know that the attorneys and partners (at least those who I've talked to about schools) hold Michigan in high regard.

I think a big problem is that with large PI/government figures, we don't know how desirable these jobs are, so people on TLS assume the worst. TLS is also prone to making large generalizations, drawing conclusions based on incomplete data, and making granular year-to-year distinctions between top schools that practitioners don't really make.

Michigan may have issues, like oversized class sizes and a subpar career services office, but the idea promulgated on TLS that Michigan is a festering TTT seems off base. It's a top school with no home market that ships students off to big law in the major markets, to federal government work, to clerkships, and to public interest work. I actually like that Michigan is more than a biglaw mill.

I'll be starting next month and I'm very excited.


mmm thats some delicious maize and blue kool aid you're sippin on there

The level of irony in this post is staggering

thatssoraven
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby thatssoraven » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:01 pm

tincan678 wrote:
MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Anyone seriously re-thinking matriculating to Michigan based on this new employment data?


Yes. Which is crazy because Michigan was my number one school for a very long time.

It's not just the employment numbers though-- Michigan's consistent drop in both rankings and outcomes basically falls in line with my impression from ASW. Both admissions and financial aid were incredibly incompetent and the law school has turned into a hotbed for oppressive liberalism (I consider myself liberal and I still felt incredibly uncomfortable there). Zearfoss became head of career planning in 2010, which means she was in charge during OCI of 2011 and 2012, so this steady decline in employment numbers for the class of 2013 and 2014 both happened as a result of her changes. And given this year's ASW, where one panelist literally said she "hopes her significant other will strike it rich to pay off her debt," I don't think Zearfoss realizes how badly she has screwed up or has any plan for changing her approach.

Don't go to Michigan if you have other T14 options on the table. If you want to experience Ann Arbor, take time off and work for a startup or get a degree in the Ford School or Ross. The current disaster that is the law school is not worth it, even though Ann Arbor really is the greatest place in the world for higher education.

If you were at the April ASW then you're taking this quote WAY out of context. The girl who said that she thought she had 'strapped herself to a rising star' in her girlfriend said that about being able to up her lifestyle, not to pay off her debt. Her debt was being paid by LRAP so she wasn't even having to worry about it, and she seemed quite happy with her PD/now research job.

I didn't get any of the impressions that you got from ASW (especially the whole liberal thing and I'm on the opposite aide of the scale--though I was expecting that so who knows). I know that you have to take the employment data they give you there with a grain of salt but it really didn't seem like that much of a problem when they were talking about it, and it definitely didn't sound like some sort of school changing explosion. But that's just my opinion, and I'm interested in government work so those BL/FC numbers don't really effect my decision/opinion of the school much.

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DCfilterDC
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby DCfilterDC » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:04 pm

MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Anyone seriously re-thinking matriculating to Michigan based on this new employment data?


I really loved the Michigan vibe, the ASW, and even Ann Arbor, but employment prospects seem to be spiraling down.

At ASW I spoke to a 3L who said he had a job, but that's only because he has good grades. He said he feels sorry for any one below median (so half the class), because they're getting killed in the job hunt.

Gonna withdraw now.

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tincan678
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby tincan678 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:06 pm

thatssoraven wrote: I'm interested in government work so those BL/FC numbers don't really effect my decision/opinion of the school much.


If you want to do government work in DC, be careful because I don't think Michigan's LRAP will cover you. With locality pay, I think first year attorney pay is higher than the Michigan salary cap.

thatssoraven
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby thatssoraven » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:11 pm

tincan678 wrote:
thatssoraven wrote: I'm interested in government work so those BL/FC numbers don't really effect my decision/opinion of the school much.


If you want to do government work in DC, be careful because I don't think Michigan's LRAP will cover you. With locality pay, I think first year attorney pay is higher than the Michigan salary cap.

I'm only going to have a small(ish) amount of debt so I'm not really that worried about it if LRAP doesn't work out at the end, but thank you.

hearsay77
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby hearsay77 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:25 pm

BillClinton Jr wrote:
MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Anyone seriously re-thinking matriculating to Michigan based on this new employment data?


+1


Combination of this and the fact that they've given me the smallest scholarship of the T14s I've been accepted to :(

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taptaptop
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby taptaptop » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:41 pm

Shit is getting serious.

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DCfilterDC
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby DCfilterDC » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:57 pm

taptaptop wrote:Shit is getting serious.


The worst part was that I talked with the Dean of the law school at ASW (not Dean Z) and he asked me what is holding me back from depositing and I said that frankly I was concerned about employment prospects, and he totally blew that off, and said it's not a real concern for Michigan students.

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tincan678
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby tincan678 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:02 pm

DCfilterDC wrote:
taptaptop wrote:Shit is getting serious.


The worst part was that I talked with the Dean of the law school at ASW (not Dean Z) and he asked me what is holding me back from depositing and I said that frankly I was concerned about employment prospects, and he totally blew that off, and said it's not a real concern for Michigan students.


Dean West? He also made a jab at UVA during ASW by mentioning that they have too many school-funded jobs. Hilarious given that Michigan hired 33 of its own students in 2014, compared to UVA's 34.

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DCfilterDC
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby DCfilterDC » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:06 pm

tincan678 wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
taptaptop wrote:Shit is getting serious.


The worst part was that I talked with the Dean of the law school at ASW (not Dean Z) and he asked me what is holding me back from depositing and I said that frankly I was concerned about employment prospects, and he totally blew that off, and said it's not a real concern for Michigan students.


Dean West? He also made a jab at UVA during ASW by mentioning that they have too many school-funded jobs. Hilarious given that Michigan hired 33 of its own students in 2014, compared to UVA's 34.


Yeah Dean West, and he made the same comment to me when I brought up employment. He said a lot of schools try and cook the books and that Michigan doesn't do that. It was just infuriating that he dismissed my concerns, and now the numbers are out and he was clearly just feeding me a party line.

hearsay77
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby hearsay77 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:11 pm

Quick question I'm hoping someone can help me out with. When you go to the admitted student site and view your personal award info, does it have your scholarship listed per year or as a total or in some other way? Also is the amount the same as the merit award that you were sent via email? I think theres a discrepancy in mine but I want to make sure before I call the school and try to figure it out.

Edit: If a summer starter could respond that would be great because I'm realizing it might have to do with being summer start.
Last edited by hearsay77 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ironcan756
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby ironcan756 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:13 pm

tincan678 wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
taptaptop wrote:Shit is getting serious.


The worst part was that I talked with the Dean of the law school at ASW (not Dean Z) and he asked me what is holding me back from depositing and I said that frankly I was concerned about employment prospects, and he totally blew that off, and said it's not a real concern for Michigan students.


Dean West? He also made a jab at UVA during ASW by mentioning that they have too many school-funded jobs. Hilarious given that Michigan hired 33 of its own students in 2014, compared to UVA's 34.


AND with less overall students - Michigan literally hires 10% of their own graduates smh :shock:

krads153
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby krads153 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:19 pm

ironcan756 wrote:
tincan678 wrote:
DCfilterDC wrote:
taptaptop wrote:Shit is getting serious.


The worst part was that I talked with the Dean of the law school at ASW (not Dean Z) and he asked me what is holding me back from depositing and I said that frankly I was concerned about employment prospects, and he totally blew that off, and said it's not a real concern for Michigan students.


Dean West? He also made a jab at UVA during ASW by mentioning that they have too many school-funded jobs. Hilarious given that Michigan hired 33 of its own students in 2014, compared to UVA's 34.


AND with less overall students - Michigan literally hires 10% of their own graduates smh :shock:


Nope. UVA had 349 graduates while Michigan had 390 graduates for class of 2014, which partly explains the lower placement.

Here's Michigan's: It says 390. https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/class ... of2014.pdf
Here's UVA: It says 349. http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

Michigan has since reduced its class size by like 40 to 50 since the most recent employment stats came out.

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ironcan756
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby ironcan756 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:47 pm

krads153 wrote:
ironcan756 wrote:
AND with less overall students - Michigan literally hires 10% of their own graduates smh :shock:


Nope. UVA had 349 graduates while Michigan had 390 graduates for class of 2014, which partly explains the lower placement.

Here's Michigan's: It says 390. https://www.law.umich.edu/careers/class ... of2014.pdf
Here's UVA: It says 349. http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

Michigan has since reduced its class size by like 40 to 50 since the most recent employment stats came out.


Had a brain fart on class sizes, but the point is still valid.

Michigan has 39 Law School Funded positions (33 bar passage required long term, 5 bar passage short term, 1 non-professional). 39/390=10%.

UVA has 34 total law funded (33 bar passage, 1 J.D. Advantage) with 349 students - as a percentage, less that Michigan

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taptaptop
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby taptaptop » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:06 pm

hearsay77 wrote:Quick question I'm hoping someone can help me out with. When you go to the admitted student site and view your personal award info, does it have your scholarship listed per year or as a total or in some other way? Also is the amount the same as the merit award that you were sent via email? I think theres a discrepancy in mine but I want to make sure before I call the school and try to figure it out.

Edit: If a summer starter could respond that would be great because I'm realizing it might have to do with being summer start.



Summer start here. It shows the scholarship for you in 3 semesters (half of the full scholarship you have) since 2015-2016 actually means summer, fall, winter for us.

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Hedgehogday
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby Hedgehogday » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:22 pm

In my mind statistics are what they are, and it's on the individual to make the most out of a degree. So I think that the employment stats are only one part of the puzzle in choosing which school to attend. That said, I think the new numbers show that c/o 2014 and c/o 2013 just have different areas of interest.

MLaw C/O 2014 MLaw C/O 2013
Total 364 339
Gov 43 28
PI 39 21

251+ 21 32
501+ 134 148
non-Fed Clerkship 27 17
Fed Clerkship 41 31
501+/FC 48.08% 52.80%
251+/FC 53.85% 62.24%
251+ 42.58% 53.10%
Clerkship 18.68% 14.16%
FC 11.26% 9.14%
PI 10.71% 6.19%
Gov 11.81% 8.26%
PI+Gov 22.53% 14.45%
PI+Gov+FC 33.79% 23.60%
PI+Gov+251+FC 76.37% 76.70%

I am a PI gunner, so I may have different perspective on this but at least I am not worried as someone who is not ruling out FC or Big Law for my first job out of lawschool.
If anything, isn't it reassuring that not all of the high-performing classmates would be gunning for the same kind of jobs, whether it be Big Law, clerkships or PI?
Last edited by Hedgehogday on Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:00 am, edited 10 times in total.

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Hedgehogday
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Re: Michigan Law c/o 2018

Postby Hedgehogday » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:27 pm

Hedgehogday wrote:
__________MLaw C/O 2014____MLaw C/O 2013
Total_________________364____339
Gov__________________ 43____28
PI____________________ 39____21

251+________________ 21____32
501+________________ 134____148
non-Fed Clerkship___ 27____17
Fed Clerkship________ 41____31
501+FC____________48.08%____52.80%
251+FC____________53.85%____62.24%
251+_______________42.58%____53.10%
Clerkship___________18.68%____14.16%
FC__________________11.26%____9.14%
PI__________________10.71%____6.19%
Gov________________11.81%____8.26%
PI+Gov_____________22.53%____14.45%
PI+Gov+FC_________33.79%____23.60%
PI+Gov+251+FC____76.37%____76.70%





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