Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions Forum

Special forum where professionals are encouraged to help law school applicants, students, and graduates.
Locked
User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:51 pm

GreatBraffsby wrote:Hello,

Thanks so much for doing this. I was wondering how Law School admissions views students who transferred during undergrad, and specifically my personal case. I made a lateral move during my sophomore year (between two top 30 colleges), but I had to take an extra course per semester to fulfill deparment requirements that didn't exist at my first school. Accordingly, I took an inflexible schedule that consisted of solely upper level courses in my two majors. I graduated with a 3.6, but had a 3.9 the only semester in which I took a "normal" load (my final semester).

Would it be worth submitting an addendum describing this situation? I'm worried it might come off as simply making an excuse for a non-stellar GPA. I've discussed the scenario with a former professor and she is willing to address this concern in a letter of rec and vouch for my academic ability.
Hi there. Definitely a wise strategy to have a professor address it in a LOR. This is a good example of a specific scenario where an LOR could add valuable context to the file. I think between the LOR and the admission committee's review of your transcript, that should be sufficient. (If you didn't have a professor who was willing or able to address it, I'd say write a brief addendum.) Also, another thought is that you could use it as an example in your personal statement—if the topic allows for it. If your essay includes a discussion of work ethic or intellectual curiosity, for example, that would be a great reference/illustration to throw in. Mission accomplished - addendum free. :)

User avatar
terrier27

Bronze
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:39 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by terrier27 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:22 am

Hello,

Thank you for taking questions. I have been waitlisted at some great schools and am hoping to possibly get merit aid from the schools I've been admitted to, so I have been considering taking the June LSAT. Should I inform the schools that I have been waitlisted at that I will be taking the June LSAT in the hopes that they will at least keep me on the waitlist long enough to see the June scores?

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:22 pm

terrier27 wrote:Hello,

Thank you for taking questions. I have been waitlisted at some great schools and am hoping to possibly get merit aid from the schools I've been admitted to, so I have been considering taking the June LSAT. Should I inform the schools that I have been waitlisted at that I will be taking the June LSAT in the hopes that they will at least keep me on the waitlist long enough to see the June scores?
Yes, definitely. Best of luck!

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:17 pm

texasforever54 wrote:Hi Dean Meeker!

I echo everyone else's sentiments -- thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions.

I have two questions that I think are pretty common but too frequently receive conflicting information.

1) Given that law schools report admitted applicants' UGPA's as is, how much is an undergraduate institution's prestige and reputation for academic rigor taken into account? Certainly this is only one component of the application, but would you say that applicants coming from schools with low-grade inflation are compensated at all for this?

2) You've mentioned several times that multiple LSAT scores within several points of one another need not be explained and, most likely, admission committees will consider the highest score. Do you think this remains true if the retake is lower than the first? And is an addendum necessary in that situation? It seems that the committee would assume that the applicant believes the higher score should be weighted more heavily and that an addendum is just unnecessary paperwork. Was that your experience?

Thanks again!
Hello,

Let's start with question #2, because that one is much easier. No, you don't need to submit an addendum for multiple LSATs that are within a few points of one another, even if the second one was lower.

Question #1 is one that I often get asked and I am happy to continue to try to shed light on it. Undergraduate institution reputation and degree of grade inflation are absolutely taken into consideration, but usually as distinguishing factors in the review process (i.e., to distinguish among applicants with similar numerical credentials). So, the bottom line is, it will help some applicants more than others; I will explain this a bit further in a moment. When reviewing applications, our first two questions with regard to the applicant's GPA were always: 1) what was her major; 2) where did she go to school? As part of that review process, we considered difficulty of major, courses taken, credit hours taken, grade trends (including specific grades earned in certain courses v. others), school reputation, mean LSAT score of the school, and degree of grade inflation. So, if your LSAT score and cumulative GPA are at or above the school's desired medians, AND you graduated from a rigorous institution with low grade inflation, you will almost certainly be admitted (unless you really screw up the personal statement, have zero outside activities/interests, and/or poor LORs - or character/fitness issues of course.). What if your LSAT is below median, but your grades are around or above the median? You would have an edge over applicants with similar LSAT and GPA but who came from a less demanding institution and/or major - and in this scenario, you should absolutely apply for serious reach schools. I've had clients with LSAT scores in the high 150s and strong grades, i.e., above median, from reputable schools get into top 10 schools. So, this would be a good example where institution and rigor of curriculum/grades could carry tremendous weight. Now, most likely the scenario is going to be that the cumulative GPA is below the law school's median (thanks to your undergraduate school's grade DEflation). In this case, if your LSAT score is at or above the law school's desired median, again you will have the edge over applicants with similar credentials but from less rigorous schools/majors. But if your LSAT and GPA are below the school's medians, here is where you could be at a disadvantage. If, for example, the law school's medians are 167 and 3.75, and you have a 165 and 3.6, admission chances are - in most cases - better for the applicant with the 165 and 3.85 from the "less rigorous school/major." (and for the applicant with the 167/3.76.) If you find yourself in this scenario (LSAT and GPA below medians), you must apply EARLY. Schools will have more flexibility early in the process to admit the students below the margins who have had a more challenging curriculum/grading system.

Now, I simplified this to some extent for brevity. It really can be more nuanced. The dean of admissions is always looking at the file as a whole and at the admitted class as a whole. There are many other factors that are considered: did the applicant work during college? what was his or her level of leadership/service? diversity in its many facets - which includes geographic and college diversity. So there could be cases in my examples above where the seemingly "less appealing" applicant (based on numbers and rigor of college/major) still gets the nod because he is from a college or state not represented in the student body. (North Dakota was always an elusive one as I recall at Penn.:))

Hope that provides some additional insight on this process.

dlj4292

New
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:20 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by dlj4292 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:15 am

deanmeekerconsulting wrote:
terrier27 wrote:Hello,

Thank you for taking questions. I have been waitlisted at some great schools and am hoping to possibly get merit aid from the schools I've been admitted to, so I have been considering taking the June LSAT. Should I inform the schools that I have been waitlisted at that I will be taking the June LSAT in the hopes that they will at least keep me on the waitlist long enough to see the June scores?
Yes, definitely. Best of luck!
Hi Dean,

Thanks so much for all the helpful info you've provided. I just wanted to follow up on the above and ask if taking the June test in hopes of a higher score is a viable way to receive increased merit aid from schools that have already offered me a scholarship. Thanks!

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


User avatar
Wild Card

Silver
Posts: 988
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:48 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by Wild Card » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:46 am

Hi, DM,

I had posted the following message in Spivey's thread, but thought that since you've served in admissions at both Penn and Chicago, schools to which I'd still like to apply, I'd pose the same question to you:

In light of recent declines in the numbers of applicants and high-scorers, and given the "Fabian tactics" that some T14 schools appear to be adopting this cycle, is it still too late to apply?

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:40 pm

Wild Card wrote:Hi, DM,

I had posted the following message in Spivey's thread, but thought that since you've served in admissions at both Penn and Chicago, schools to which I'd still like to apply, I'd pose the same question to you:

In light of recent declines in the numbers of applicants and high-scorers, and given the "Fabian tactics" that some T14 schools appear to be adopting this cycle, is it still too late to apply?
If you are competitive applicant for the schools, it is not too late to apply. That has always been the case, though. Most schools, even during the peak admissions years, would accept late applicants who were competitive and interesting (unless it was post deposit deadline, which is typically around May 1 for T14 schools, and they were truly oversubscribed). If you've got an LSAT and GPA that are above the schools' medians, by all means, apply. 169+ LSATs in particular are in very high demand, so if you've got one you have a valuable asset well into spring and possibly into summer. The process is more competitive later in the season, however, for splitter candidates, candidates below both medians, and/or candidates that have other weaknesses in their file. Also, assuming you are a competitive candidate given your numbers, it is important to assess whether you'd be in the same position applying now as you would be applying early in the admissions season. In other words, you may have a compelling enough profile that some top 10 schools would be willing to accept your application and admit you well into summer. But, at that point, scholarship options are less likely and your school options overall will be fewer. So perhaps you'd still get an admissions offer from Penn and Chicago late in the admissions season, but had you applied earlier in the season, might you also had gotten a scholarship and/or an admissions offer from say Harvard or Stanford? If those factors are important to you, then it is a matter of deciding whether you prefer to enroll in law school this year or wait a year so that you can reapply in the fall at the beginning of the admissions season (and perhaps have more options).

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:48 pm

dlj4292 wrote:
deanmeekerconsulting wrote:
terrier27 wrote:Hello,

Thank you for taking questions. I have been waitlisted at some great schools and am hoping to possibly get merit aid from the schools I've been admitted to, so I have been considering taking the June LSAT. Should I inform the schools that I have been waitlisted at that I will be taking the June LSAT in the hopes that they will at least keep me on the waitlist long enough to see the June scores?
Yes, definitely. Best of luck!
Hi Dean,

Thanks so much for all the helpful info you've provided. I just wanted to follow up on the above and ask if taking the June test in hopes of a higher score is a viable way to receive increased merit aid from schools that have already offered me a scholarship. Thanks!
If you are pretty confident you can increase your LSAT score and have the time and resources to devote to taking the June test, it is worth a shot. As I've said many times, those high LSAT scores are in high demand in this market.

AquafiNa

New
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:52 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by AquafiNa » Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:22 pm

.
Last edited by AquafiNa on Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:08 pm

AquafiNa wrote:Hello Dean,

I am a candidate for a Darrow scholarship. My stats are above both 75th percentiles. Michigan is my top choice but it's been just over 3 weeks since the interview. They said it takes ~2 weeks to hear back but consensus seems to be it takes longer. Should I send them an email restating how interested I am in them? I don't want them to think that I am just trying to use the Darrow to negotiate, but at the same time I don't want to be lowballed because they are my #1 choice. Thanks!
I really don't think that would make much of a difference either way in the Darrow process. Aside from your numerical credentials, it really is going to come down to whether you have the other qualities they are seeking, your "fit" for Michigan and the program, how well you interviewed, and how you compare to the rest of the pool. Negotiating for scholarships has become so widespread and frequent, admissions committees tend to take the "your school is my #1 choice" somewhat with a grain of salt. I'm not saying that never has an impact, but all the other pieces have to be there for candidates to be awarded such substantial scholarships. If you conveyed your genuine interest in Michigan and that you are a good fit via the application, essays and your interview, then you've done what you needed to do.
And, as you alluded to, these big scholarships are used as recruiting tools, so I'd err on the side of caution and not say anything more at this point.

Veronica2015

New
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:30 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by Veronica2015 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:41 am

Hello Dean,

I found this on Chicago's website, Information for International Students:

"The Law School will, in exceptional cases, consider applications from applicants who finished 75% of the course work leading to a final degree from a university or college in their own country. In recent years, however, no international applicant who did not have a final degree prior to Applying To the Law School has been admitted to the student body."

Does this mean that Chicago Law does not admit international KJD applicant? Thank you very much in advance!

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:33 pm

Veronica2015 wrote:Hello Dean,

I found this on Chicago's website, Information for International Students:

"The Law School will, in exceptional cases, consider applications from applicants who finished 75% of the course work leading to a final degree from a university or college in their own country. In recent years, however, no international applicant who did not have a final degree prior to applying to the Law School has been admitted to the student body."

Does this mean that Chicago Law does not admit international KJD applicant? Thank you very much in advance!
If you have completed your degree in your country, you are eligible to apply. If you have NOT yet completed your degree, but you have completed 75% of the courses toward the degree, you may request to apply and they may consider your application, but admission is unlikely (i.e., they have not admitted any international applicants in recent years who did not have a degree).

Hopefully, that is clearer for you. :)

blousty

New
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:03 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by blousty » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:54 am

deanmeekerconsulting wrote:www.deanmeekerconsulting.com

Hi, everyone. I am Derek Meeker, former Dean of Admissions for Penn Law School and prior Recruiting Manager for global law firm Paul Hastings. I also served as a reader for the University of Chicago Law School. As a consultant, I have assisted numerous clients in gaining admission to every top 14 school and many other schools across the country.

I am available to answer any questions you have regarding your law school applications. Also, if your goal is to work in "big law," I can answer questions about the law firm hiring process. My perspective is based on 15+ years of experience and longstanding relationships with the decision makers at the top law schools.

Also, check out my blogs on Waitlist Tips, Personal Statement Tips, and the benefits of working prior to law school: http://www.deanmeekerconsulting.com/deans-list-2/.

I look forward to hearing from you!

DM
twitter.com/DeanMeeker
Derek -- What are your thoughts on luring 22 year olds to take on 100k+ in federally guaranteed debt for the benefit of your school, which in my opinion should be taken very seriously. I'm hoping TLS won't censor this post, since my question is genuine. Shouldn't the law schools take responsibility to ensure they aren't approving loan applications in excess of 100k unless they believe the student will not end up underwater given the school's job prospects? How did that play out at your school, given its recent history? (No offense). Also, given your job history, are you even able as a recruiter to offer job advice to future lawyers, given that you've really never been one?

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


blousty

New
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:03 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by blousty » Sat Mar 07, 2015 4:07 am

blousty wrote:
deanmeekerconsulting wrote:www.deanmeekerconsulting.com

Hi, everyone. I am Derek Meeker, former Dean of Admissions for Penn Law School and prior Recruiting Manager for global law firm Paul Hastings. I also served as a reader for the University of Chicago Law School. As a consultant, I have assisted numerous clients in gaining admission to every top 14 school and many other schools across the country.

I am available to answer any questions you have regarding your law school applications. Also, if your goal is to work in "big law," I can answer questions about the law firm hiring process. My perspective is based on 15+ years of experience and longstanding relationships with the decision makers at the top law schools.

Also, check out my blogs on Waitlist Tips, Personal Statement Tips, and the benefits of working prior to law school: http://www.deanmeekerconsulting.com/deans-list-2/.

I look forward to hearing from you!

DM
twitter.com/DeanMeeker
Derek -- What are your thoughts on luring 22 year olds to take on 100k+ in federally guaranteed debt for the benefit of your school, which in my opinion should be taken very seriously. I'm hoping TLS won't censor this post, since my question is genuine. Shouldn't the law schools take responsibility to ensure they aren't approving loan applications in excess of 100k unless they believe the student will not end up underwater given the school's job prospects? How did that play out at your recent school, given its recent history? (No offense). Also, given your job history, are you even able as a recruiter to offer job advice to future lawyers, given that you've really never been one? (Again no offense). I just want the readers to have good information and I think you may be the guy to give it to them

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:28 pm

blousty wrote:
blousty wrote:
deanmeekerconsulting wrote:www.deanmeekerconsulting.com

Hi, everyone. I am Derek Meeker, former Dean of Admissions for Penn Law School and prior Recruiting Manager for global law firm Paul Hastings. I also served as a reader for the University of Chicago Law School. As a consultant, I have assisted numerous clients in gaining admission to every top 14 school and many other schools across the country.

I am available to answer any questions you have regarding your law school applications. Also, if your goal is to work in "big law," I can answer questions about the law firm hiring process. My perspective is based on 15+ years of experience and longstanding relationships with the decision makers at the top law schools.

Also, check out my blogs on Waitlist Tips, Personal Statement Tips, and the benefits of working prior to law school: http://www.deanmeekerconsulting.com/deans-list-2/.

I look forward to hearing from you!

DM
twitter.com/DeanMeeker
Derek -- What are your thoughts on luring 22 year olds to take on 100k+ in federally guaranteed debt for the benefit of your school, which in my opinion should be taken very seriously. I'm hoping TLS won't censor this post, since my question is genuine. Shouldn't the law schools take responsibility to ensure they aren't approving loan applications in excess of 100k unless they believe the student will not end up underwater given the school's job prospects? How did that play out at your recent school, given its recent history? (No offense). Also, given your job history, are you even able as a recruiter to offer job advice to future lawyers, given that you've really never been one? (Again no offense). I just want the readers to have good information and I think you may be the guy to give it to them
Hi. Sorry for the delay; I will respond to your questions tomorrow!

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:57 pm

deanmeekerconsulting wrote:
blousty wrote:
blousty wrote:
deanmeekerconsulting wrote:www.deanmeekerconsulting.com

Hi, everyone. I am Derek Meeker, former Dean of Admissions for Penn Law School and prior Recruiting Manager for global law firm Paul Hastings. I also served as a reader for the University of Chicago Law School. As a consultant, I have assisted numerous clients in gaining admission to every top 14 school and many other schools across the country.

I am available to answer any questions you have regarding your law school applications. Also, if your goal is to work in "big law," I can answer questions about the law firm hiring process. My perspective is based on 15+ years of experience and longstanding relationships with the decision makers at the top law schools.

Also, check out my blogs on Waitlist Tips, Personal Statement Tips, and the benefits of working prior to law school: http://www.deanmeekerconsulting.com/deans-list-2/.

I look forward to hearing from you!

DM
twitter.com/DeanMeeker
Derek -- What are your thoughts on luring 22 year olds to take on 100k+ in federally guaranteed debt for the benefit of your school, which in my opinion should be taken very seriously. I'm hoping TLS won't censor this post, since my question is genuine. Shouldn't the law schools take responsibility to ensure they aren't approving loan applications in excess of 100k unless they believe the student will not end up underwater given the school's job prospects? How did that play out at your recent school, given its recent history? (No offense). Also, given your job history, are you even able as a recruiter to offer job advice to future lawyers, given that you've really never been one? (Again no offense). I just want the readers to have good information and I think you may be the guy to give it to them
Hi there. I'm happy to answer your questions and take offense to none of them.

Let me start by saying, I am of the opinion that most 22-year-olds should NOT be going to law school. I have written several blogs and articles imploring prospective law school applicants to work full-time rather than going directly from college to law school. Now, I say "most" because I have, over the years, communicated and worked with some who have done their research, have thoroughly explored legal education and legal careers via academic, part-time/summer work, and personal experiences and can clearly articulate why they are interested in law school and what their career goals are. (Even then, I still think they should strongly consider working full-time for at least a year.) Aside from the fact that work experience would be an added benefit to your application for law school AND make you a more attractive candidate to legal employers, it also could help clarify your career goals and give you some time to make sure whether law school is the right path, possibly allow you to save some money (or at least minimize some debt you may have incurred during college), and strengthen the skills that are crucial for succeeding in law school and in landing better jobs so that the investment is worthwhile. (Writing skills, presentation/advocacy skills, interpersonal savvy/networking skills, confidence/presence, maturity.) I heard repeatedly from partners and other recruiting managers at various top law firms (while I was working in recruiting) that law students/summer associates and first-year associates lack sufficient writing and interpersonal skills. So, the take away is, even if you get into a school that will open these lucrative law firm positions to you (and arguably make the investment worthwhile), your career could be short-lived (and/or not very pleasant) if you haven't cultivated these critical skills. It will pay off tremendously to hone those skills BEFORE law school. And to have the added maturity and perspective to make smart choices as to whether you should even go to law school at that time in your life, and if so, where you should go to law school, how to pay for it, etc. AND, if you don't get into a top-ranked school that paves the way toward big law or other prestigious/competitive opportunities, you at least stand a much better chance of being in that percentage of students at your school that ARE getting full-time, bar-required jobs as lawyers because you have skills that are valued and badly needed. I could go on and on about this topic, but I'll move on to some other points. (But my blogs on the topic are currently on my website, noodle.com, and admitopia.com.)

What is the school's responsibility in all of this? Well, first, schools absolutely should be transparent and truthful as to what the total cost of attending will be, what the expected or likely outcome is (in terms of placement and average starting salary for that school's graduates), and what that means in terms of total cost of loan (with interest) and average monthly payment for 10-year plan, 20-year plan, etc. Schools can and should do a much better job of counseling prospective and admitted students on these realities, particularly those that are getting zero need- or merit-based aid and zero assistance from outside sources (i.e., those for whom attending law school depends solely or almost solely on loans). Because the students that must take out the most in loans are often the ones that won't graduate at the top of their class and won't be in a position to get the most lucrative job opportunities (or a job at all). Also, as I've stated before, law schools should not all be similarly priced. It is ridiculous that there are schools that have a 30% to 40% placement rate with a median starting salary of $60k or $70k and cost almost as much as a T14 school. But - people do continue to apply and attend these schools. It is a two-way street. This information IS available and we are talking about students that are college-educated adults. They need to be smart consumers. They must read and pay attention to all the information that is available to them in terms of schools' placement statistics, average indebtedness of graduates, average salaries, etc.

The bottom is starting to fall out for some of these schools. And the ABA has got to hold these schools to high standards, because of course the other consequence is that people who are really not qualified for law school will get admitted because the number of applicants who are qualified has dropped so dramatically, and the schools have to fill seats to stay open. But I don't think all will be able to, nor should they, stay open. (It was encouraging, for example, to see Hamline and William Mitchell in the Twin Cities merge.) There are at least some signs that this broken system is being forced to make changes. There is now more information available to prospective students, and the media and special interest groups have been hammering law schools, keeping the spotlight on them, and thus making them more accountable (or at least more transparent).

As to whether I'm qualified to offer job advice to future lawyers: while it is true I only practiced for a few years (and in a public sector position), I chose to make my profession about understanding what it takes to succeed in law school and as a lawyer. I have worked directly with lawyers, law faculty, and law students throughout my entire career. And fortunately I have had the opportunity to work at some of the most reputed schools with highly regarded faculty and incredibly bright students, and also at a very competitive large law firm. So I think I've gotten some of the best "hands-on" training I could in admissions and recruiting. But I believe it is also my life experience that allows me to effectively help prospective law students. I was a first-generation college student and didn't attend top-ranked schools - and I definitely would have made some different decisions with regard to my legal education and students loans if I had had better advising (and had done better research myself). Still, I value the legal education I received and have experienced many benefits as a result of it. All of these experiences – personal and professional - have given me insight that I can pass on to others, help them make more informed decisions, and help them better position themselves for success in their careers.

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:56 pm

For those of you who have been admitted and have upcoming deposit deadlines in early to mid-April, be advised that law schools do not have to publish their Class of '14 employment statistics until April 15 (thanks to the ABA pushing back that deadline, which used to be a month earlier). That is information that you should have before being required to choose a school and put down a deposit, so be sure to ask for it if the schools you are considering have not provided it. If you do not have that information in advance of your deposit deadline (and with a reasonable amount of lead time to make a fully informed decision), request an extension for your deposit deadline. Just wrote a blog about this issue if you want to check it out: http://www.deanmeekerconsulting.com/deans-list-2/

Get unlimited access to all forums and topics

Register now!

I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...


User avatar
TheodoreKGB

Bronze
Posts: 500
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:46 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by TheodoreKGB » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:10 pm

.
Last edited by TheodoreKGB on Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kaiser

Gold
Posts: 3018
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 11:34 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by kaiser » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:35 pm

Derek- I see myself possibly going the route of recruiting, or law school administration (possibly in admissions or career counseling) one day in the future. Can you elaborate on what lead you into recruiting/admissions, and maybe share some ways that a practicing lawyer can lay the groundwork for a down-the-road shift into law school administration? What are the pros/cons of such a move?

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:12 pm

TheodoreKGB wrote:Hey Dean Meeker,

Just wanted to say how slick I think your website looks. I liked that it's simple, crisp, and modern.

(Clicked through a couple pages after reading your blog on employment stats and deposit deadlines.)
Thank you! I really appreciate that.

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:55 pm

kaiser wrote:Derek- I see myself possibly going the route of recruiting, or law school administration (possibly in admissions or career counseling) one day in the future. Can you elaborate on what lead you into recruiting/admissions, and maybe share some ways that a practicing lawyer can lay the groundwork for a down-the-road shift into law school administration? What are the pros/cons of such a move?
Hi there. My initial interest with regard to law school was to work in politics/government (in a policy or lobbyist type position). I worked for 4 years as a legislative aide in the Ohio Senate (actually while going to law school) and then 2 years in the Ohio Attorney General's office after getting my JD. By that time, my interest in working in politics was waning. When I decided to make a transition, I wanted a job that combined what I loved most about my jobs in the Senate and AG's office: writing, public speaking, assessing clients' issues and counseling them. That led me directly to law school admissions and career services, so I began applying for jobs in both departments at law schools all over the country and networking like crazy. My first job was as an Assistant Director of Admissions at William Mitchell College of Law in the Twin Cities. I learned the admissions business, loved it, became very involved with the Law School Admissions Council, and kept networking. And about 3 years later, I started working at Penn. Landing the first job in law school administration can be tough (there tends to be a lot of competition for those jobs and it's not always easy to find them when they're open). But once you get a job in law school administration, if you do well and make a name for yourself, you can move up the ladder relatively easily (either within the office, or transition to another department at the school, or to a different school).

As far as laying the groundwork, you need to be very involved in anything admissions or recruiting related. So, as a law student, it is important to be a student leader/ambassador, to volunteer for the admissions office, serve on the admissions committee, etc. As a practicing lawyer, you need to get involved with attorney recruiting and/or attorney development (via mentorship of law students, on campus interviewing, callback interviewing, summer program planning and training, development/mentorship of junior associates, etc.). It's also really important to network and build relationships — starting with your college and law school. Volunteering as an alum in any sort of admissions recruiting/outreach would be beneficial, speaking on campus on career services panels, and just getting to know (or staying in touch with) the deans of admissions, career services, student affairs, etc. Law schools LOVE hiring their alumni in these positions, so building those relationships is crucial (plus they also will know every other law school that is hiring and could refer you, and that's how most people get hired into these positions). Essentially, they want someone who is charismatic, interpersonally savvy, and presents well, is an excellent writer, great at building relationships and working as part of a team (but also proven, demonstrated leadership skills), keen intuition, analytical skills, and judgment — and, of course, an ability to relate to students from diverse backgrounds.

As a practicing lawyer, you obviously will hone many of the more technical skills, but you have to balance those with the interpersonal skills. That is where all of that other stuff comes in (i.e., getting involved in anything that allows you to speak to, mentor, train, develop, recruit students).

The pros and cons. Well, the first con can be salary. Most practicing lawyers looking to make a change are shocked at the salaries for assistant director and associate director level positions at law schools—which is usually the level at which you must start, unless you have many years of experience that included managerial or high-level responsibilities. (Of course it also depends on where you are working as a lawyer. Since I was coming from the public sector, the salary wasn't that shocking for me.) The assistant dean and associate dean level jobs pay much better. So know that you may have to take a lower-level, lower paying job in the beginning, at least to get your foot in the door. You have to be open with that first job. (Minnesota was never on my list of places to live, and I had never even been there or heard of William Mitchell until I got the job interview. And my second time there was when I moved for the job! But it paved the way for the rest of my career.) Another con is simply the state of legal education and the legal market. It is a tough time to be in admissions and career services. You're always under pressure in those jobs, much of which is tied to the US New Rankings, but that pressure has never been greater than it has these past few years. And there is very little down time, especially in Admissions. It is somewhat slower in the summer, because students are gone and your class is usually pretty well set by then, but you still have to deal with the waitlist, transfer admissions, continuing scholarship negotiation, and working on everything else that you can't do during fall, winter and spring (i.e., all the marketing stuff, i.e., website, publications, planning recruitment strategy, etc.). That said, there are many pros - it's so great to work with and mentor students, and to be in an academic setting and on a university campus. It truly is rewarding. I still keep in touch with many, many students (now alumni) that I admitted to Penn. Also, the camaraderie of the admissions and career services communities is second to none. I remain very close friends, not just with people I worked with at Penn, but also my counterparts at schools all over the country. It also is incredibly rewarding and exciting to be part of the leadership at an academic institution, to be influencing policy and change there. I could go on and on but I'll stop there... feel free to PM if you have any other questions!

Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.

Register now, it's still FREE!


Broncos15

Bronze
Posts: 290
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:25 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by Broncos15 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:21 pm

Hello,

I was wondering, do you think prior to law school i should take some college courses through my community college to prepare me for law school. Some of the courses include Legal Writing, Intro. Law & Legal Profession, Civil Litigation ,Family Law and Law Office Management?

And/or reading about 1Lyear and how to succeed in it.

With law school being a different ballgame than Undergrad and the urgency to get good grades from the beginning to get a summer internship after IL year ( unlike in UG, where you can have a slow start and not be as penalized for it), I feel this would be a wise choice for me.

On this note....is an addendum necessary to explain why I took the course at a community college instead of my 4 year school? My 4 year institution does not offer these courses but I am not sure if an addendum is necessary here

User avatar
DerekMeeker

Bronze
Posts: 204
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:31 am

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by DerekMeeker » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:39 pm

Broncos15 wrote:Hello,

I was wondering, do you think prior to law school i should take some college courses through my community college to prepare me for law school. Some of the courses include Legal Writing, Intro. Law & Legal Profession, Civil Litigation ,Family Law and Law Office Management?

And/or reading about 1Lyear and how to succeed in it.

With law school being a different ballgame than Undergrad and the urgency to get good grades from the beginning to get a summer internship after IL year ( unlike in UG, where you can have a slow start and not be as penalized for it), I feel this would be a wise choice for me.

On this note....is an addendum necessary to explain why I took the course at a community college instead of my 4 year school? My 4 year institution does not offer these courses but I am not sure if an addendum is necessary here

Hi there. I do not recommend taking law-related courses at a community college. Those courses will do little to prepare you for the rigors of law school or bolster your law school application. It is better to hone your writing, critical reading and analytical skills by taking upper-level Humanities courses – e.g., English, Literature, History, Philosophy - at your undergraduate institution. Advanced courses in these disciplines will do far more to prepare you for law school. And seek out courses that will require you to write original pieces as they will push you to write persuasively and concisely (and enhance your editing skills). One of the most effective courses I took to hone my writing was a Creative Nonfiction Writing class. Each week, our instructor gave us writing prompts from which we had to write 250 word essays. When trying to tell a compelling story in 250 words, you must choose the most effective and powerful words and write sentences that are clear and to the point. Such great training for writing legal briefs and memos—for which clear, concise, persuasive writing is essential. Journalism classes can be excellent as well (if your college offers them), because you must discern what are the most important facts in a story (similar to analyzing a legal case) and write them in the form of a compelling, yet succinct news article or column. A broadcast journalism course I took was actually one of my most challenging (and also provided excellent training for law school). Not only did we have to seek out stories on the fly, but we also had to write them (again, with definitive word/time limits), and then record them for "broadcast." That course demanded clear, crisp writing skills, confident presentation/oral communication skills, and the ability to think/respond on your feet. Most people wouldn't think of that type of course as a preparatory course for law school, but it packs in 3 critical skills for success in law school.

In short, look to the Humanities courses (and possibly a Journalism course or 2) to further prepare for law school (and save the "legal" courses for law school itself).
And read a great newspaper, such as the NY Times, on a regular basis.

Feel free to PM me if you have additional questions.

AccountExpired

New
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:06 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by AccountExpired » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:09 pm

Dear Dean Meek,

Do you think a school will have a soft quota for the number of international students (without GPA) in their class? I have a competitive LSAT for a school I want to go. However, I am a late January applicant and that school has already admitted an unusual number of international students this year. I am afraid they do not want any more internationals.

Thank you in advance for any input!

RJ20

New
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:25 pm

Re: Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions

Post by RJ20 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:43 pm

Dean Meek,

I just had two quick questions for you. My apologies if they have been answered already:

1. Is any substantial weight or consideration placed on what particular undergrad institution you attend--particularly one in the T10--or is it all about your cumulative GPA at the end of the day? Is it really just a numbers game?

2. Are study abroad programs (i.e., exchange programs to Oxbridge, LSE, etc.) looked upon as additional softs if they are composed of actual, rigorous courses taught by faculty from the respective university? Or do they elicit a more neutral, perhaps even a negative response (compared to just being at your own school for that semester)?

Thanks for all your help!

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


Locked

Return to “Free Help and Advice from Professionals”