Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

Special forum where professionals are encouraged to help law school applicants, students, and graduates.

Which would you prefer most?

Poll ended at Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:05 am

1. Blog advice
0
No votes
2. Podcast advice
0
No votes
3. Video advice
0
No votes
4. Just keep it all on TLS
0
No votes
5. Tweet it
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 0

User avatar
KarenButtenbaum
Posts: 591
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:39 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:04 pm

Thanks to those who replied to the "best value" rankings post. I agree that the methodology is questionable at best, as it is with many rankings. Though I'm not proposing that rankings go away, I think it worth noting that what is important to you may not have the same significance to someone else, and rankings usually can't account for that.
...And did nobody pick up on the fact that I used the word y'all?

Cheers,
Karen

Big Dog
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby Big Dog » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:44 pm

a ranking that combines jobs and costs is probably a good thing. But the numbers still need to pass the smell test. (One has to get out of the data analysis -- trees -- to see the whole forest.)

For example, according to LST, only 41% of Hamline Law (#5 on National Jurist list) grads have a JD-required jobs. In other words, 6 out of 10 grads do not. Personally, I'd much rather pay sticker at xx law school than attend Hamline for free. After three years, there is a 60% chance of not ending up with a job. How the Jurist finds that notable is beyond my comprehension.

Instinctive
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:23 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby Instinctive » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:34 am

KarenButtenbaum wrote:Thanks to those who replied to the "best value" rankings post. I agree that the methodology is questionable at best, as it is with many rankings. Though I'm not proposing that rankings go away, I think it worth noting that what is important to you may not have the same significance to someone else, and rankings usually can't account for that.
...And did nobody pick up on the fact that I used the word y'all?

Cheers,
Karen


I thought better of pointing it out to a person in a position such as yourself, where being on your good side is (IMO) a good idea. After all, if I'm meeting with Mike, I'm sure you'll get to hear about it :P

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby 20141023 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:44 am

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:31 am

Boston area people,

I going to be in Boston Monday Sept. 23rd - Wed am the 25th.

While we have limited time, Karen and I do have some availability in the mid morning and mid afternoon slots to meet with people. Please let me or Karen know if you'd like to get together as soon as you can and we will try to make it happen!

Mike

User avatar
KarenButtenbaum
Posts: 591
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:39 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:34 am

kappycaft1 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:Please don't let me get on your bad side, kappycaft1.

Just don't make crappy rankings and you'll be fine. :lol:


Mike - abort plan for making crappy rankings!

Big Dog
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby Big Dog » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:41 am

Just for the record, I am not proposing that rankings only look at things like biglaw, AIII-clerkship, and prestigious-PI placement rates.


I would, (at least at the cost of private law schools).

Now that the information is available to us, rankings should be using the updated ABA data to count "employed" graduates as those who acquired "long-term, full-time, JD-required" positions. While it is true that some people may head off to law school with the intention of going into JD-advantage business positions or continuing their education to get PhDs, a JD is a professional degree and the assumption for most is that it will help them become "a lawyer."


Rankings should do both, in what I call an excellent outcome (A-3, big law, presitigous PI, academic), and then for all JD-required jobs. In addition, LS should be raked by 'bad' outcomes for the risk-averse: under-unemployment; in other words, per dollar costs of a job as a barista three years hence (hopefully) . (With computers, it would be a simple sorting.)

Then, folks can pick and choose, depending on their personal goals (aka "significance", y'all). :P

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:50 am

Speaking of rankings, did the TLS community know that the expenditure component part of USNWR rankings (roughly 10%) won't factor in this coming year as the ABA has stopped collecting it. It is hard to know if I am are breaking something on here or not, because you guys are so ahead of the curve on this stuff, but I have heard this from multiple deans of law schools fyi.

This is good news because there was a huge amount of gamesmanship along this front.

User avatar
Lavitz
Posts: 3098
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 1:39 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby Lavitz » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:54 am

MikeSpivey wrote:Speaking of rankings, did the TLS community know that the expenditure component part of USNWR rankings (roughly 10%) won't factor in this coming year as the ABA has stopped collecting it. It is hard to know if I am are breaking something on here or not, because you guys are so ahead of the curve on this stuff, but I have heard this from multiple deans of law schools fyi.

This is good news because there was a huge amount of gamesmanship along this front.

It was brought up, but I don't think many TLSers saw the thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=212696

Innovative
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:38 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby Innovative » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:58 am

MikeSpivey wrote:Speaking of rankings, did the TLS community know that the expenditure component part of USNWR rankings (roughly 10%) won't factor in this coming year as the ABA has stopped collecting it. It is hard to know if I am are breaking something on here or not, because you guys are so ahead of the curve on this stuff, but I have heard this from multiple deans of law schools fyi.

This is good news because there was a huge amount of gamesmanship along this front.


There had been a few blog posts about this in July ( http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... ws-do.html ---- http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... -news.html ). But certainly no confirmation. What impact do you think this will have on students? More tuition reductions in the form of scholarship, less spending per student, no noticeable difference?

Edit: Lavitz beat me to it

User avatar
TheJanitor6203
Posts: 811
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:52 pm

Is it always necessary to check "yes" in the C&F sections for speeding tickets? Most applications say something like this-
Have you ever, either as an adult or a juvenile, been cited, arrested, taken into custody, charged with, indicted, convicted or tried for, or pleaded guilty to, the commission of any felony or misdemeanor or the violation of any law, except minor parking violations
and I consider a speeding ticket a minor parking violation but I just ran across this-
The Tulane Law School Admission Committee requires complete disclosure regarding any violation or alleged violation of law (including traffic offenses)
In this case what should I say in the C&F statement? I don't remember the year, much less the date, of each speeding ticket I've ever received.

User avatar
haus
Posts: 2846
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:07 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby haus » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:01 pm

TheJanitor6203 wrote:Is it always necessary to check "yes" in the C&F sections for speeding tickets? Most applications say something like this-
Have you ever, either as an adult or a juvenile, been cited, arrested, taken into custody, charged with, indicted, convicted or tried for, or pleaded guilty to, the commission of any felony or misdemeanor or the violation of any law, except minor parking violations
and I consider a speeding ticket a minor parking violation but I just ran across this-
The Tulane Law School Admission Committee requires complete disclosure regarding any violation or alleged violation of law (including traffic offenses)
In this case what should I say in the C&F statement? I don't remember the year, much less the date, of each speeding ticket I've ever received.

Speeding = Parking Violation ??

How fast are you going while parking?

User avatar
TheJanitor6203
Posts: 811
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:02 pm

haus wrote:
TheJanitor6203 wrote:Is it always necessary to check "yes" in the C&F sections for speeding tickets? Most applications say something like this-
Have you ever, either as an adult or a juvenile, been cited, arrested, taken into custody, charged with, indicted, convicted or tried for, or pleaded guilty to, the commission of any felony or misdemeanor or the violation of any law, except minor parking violations
and I consider a speeding ticket a minor parking violation but I just ran across this-
The Tulane Law School Admission Committee requires complete disclosure regarding any violation or alleged violation of law (including traffic offenses)
In this case what should I say in the C&F statement? I don't remember the year, much less the date, of each speeding ticket I've ever received.

Speeding = Parking Violation ??

How fast are you going while parking?

Maybe I'm wrong but in my mind speeding violation=parking violation. They're both bullshit laws designed solely to collect revenue.

User avatar
TheJanitor6203
Posts: 811
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:05 pm

To be more clear, I equate speeding violations and parking violations with the more general term "traffic violation" which is what I was under the impression didn't need to be disclosed.

User avatar
TheJanitor6203
Posts: 811
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:32 pm

To answer part of my own question, I went back and re-read all of my applications and almost all of them state that "minor traffic violations" do not need to be disclosed. My original example of "parking violations" was a bad example. But this still leaves the question of what do you write for this? "I got a speeding ticket. A lot of them."

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22888
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:36 pm

Obviously not an admissions officer, but you can contact the DMV in the states where you've been licensed to drive and get a copy of your driving record - that will give you dates etc. of speeding tickets. (It's either free/very cheap.) They usually only go back so far, so beyond that you could probably just estimate/guess and explain that you have no records of the incident. (You'll have to do this for the bar, so hold onto the records.)

User avatar
MikeSpivey
Posts: 2618
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:28 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:11 pm

TheJanitor6203 wrote:
haus wrote:
TheJanitor6203 wrote:Is it always necessary to check "yes" in the C&F sections for speeding tickets? Most applications say something like this-
Have you ever, either as an adult or a juvenile, been cited, arrested, taken into custody, charged with, indicted, convicted or tried for, or pleaded guilty to, the commission of any felony or misdemeanor or the violation of any law, except minor parking violations
and I consider a speeding ticket a minor parking violation but I just ran across this-
The Tulane Law School Admission Committee requires complete disclosure regarding any violation or alleged violation of law (including traffic offenses)
In this case what should I say in the C&F statement? I don't remember the year, much less the date, of each speeding ticket I've ever received.

Speeding = Parking Violation ??

How fast are you going while parking?

Maybe I'm wrong but in my mind speeding violation=parking violation. They're both bullshit laws designed solely to collect revenue.


The only way a speeding violation would possibly hurt you in the application process is if you were to write an addendum and call it a b^%!s&^% law. Just disclose it won't hurt and you do not have to explain it. In fact please don't, other than the date and infraction.

User avatar
KarenButtenbaum
Posts: 591
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:39 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:15 pm

A new blog is up -- or as Mike likes to say I blogged it, tweeted it, and sent it to the warehouse (i.e. TLS)
Enjoy!
Karen
http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/top-10 ... -blunders/

User avatar
LEPWU
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:19 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby LEPWU » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:08 pm

...but using "effect" as a verb can be so great! ("Despite my flat affect, which may give the appearance that I am dull and not driven, I actually hope to effect great change in our country's prison system.")

User avatar
KarenButtenbaum
Posts: 591
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:39 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:44 pm

LEPWU wrote:...but using "effect" as a verb can be so great! ("Despite my flat affect, which may give the appearance that I am dull and not driven, I actually hope to effect great change in our country's prison system.")


Yes, using words properly can be fun! But a lot of people struggle with that one before they get it right.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby 20141023 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:52 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

BoxerReb6
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:00 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby BoxerReb6 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:02 pm

Hi Mike and Karen,

Here's my 2 part-er that I'd very much like your input on. It is re: my DS. I'm a white male writing about my parent's felonies and frequent run-ins with the law. I believe our fairly consistent poverty (father had a job about 6 years total out of the time I've been alive) and my somewhat unusual upbringing has influenced who I am to a great degree and would make me diverse compared to the average law school student, which is also the advice I've gotten from advisors and professors. However, I have 2 concerns. First, would associating myself with that aspect make me look bad? I never committed any crimes and I'm a perfectly normal, law abiding citizen despite my childhood, but my parents are still somewhat reluctant criminals. Second, My PS mentions something specific my experience with parental identity theft. I've gone ahead and left that piece of information in because it serves as a good starting point for my PS but I'm wondering if it's too much to briefly mention something my parent's did in my PS and then make a large portion of my DS also about my parent's criminality. To be sure, my PS now only contains about 2 lines concerning my folks, intro and conclusion, but they are there nonetheless because it's commanded large portion of my life.

If I could get your thoughts on that, I'd very much appreciate it!

EDIT: And if you are feeling particularly generous, I'd love to hear your thoughts on re-applicants and what you think about students who retake the LSAT and do worse.

User avatar
Clearly
Posts: 4166
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby Clearly » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:04 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:...and so is using apostrophes to denote plurality! ("I counted all of the letter p's and number 5's in this document.")

However, I always get tripped up with stuff like grades. For example, would "I received 3 A+s this semester" or "I received 3 A+'s this semester" be correct?

Technically, no apostrophe, that implies possession, however it also looks weird without it to me. I'd prob play it safe and rephrase the sentence to I received three a+ grades, or something along those lines.

Big Dog
Posts: 1191
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:34 pm

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby Big Dog » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:26 pm

Yes, using words properly can be fun! But a lot of people struggle with that one before they get it right.


Since those are basic SAT/ACT words, misuse should be auto-reject for a professional school, IMO. :mrgreen:

User avatar
haus
Posts: 2846
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:07 am

Re: Q&A with former Admissions Officer

Postby haus » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:07 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Yes, using words properly can be fun! But a lot of people struggle with that one before they get it right.


Since those are basic SAT/ACT words, misuse should be auto-reject for a professional school, IMO. :mrgreen:

Misuse of such words have not even been auto-reject for POTUS/VPOTUS over the last few decades.


Return to “Free Help and Advice from Professionals”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: hwwong and 1 guest