Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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SweetTort
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby SweetTort » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:07 pm

Quick shoutout to @Spivey for fixing my Fantasy running back situation.

BobBoblaw
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby BobBoblaw » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:13 pm

A quick question that I haven't seen addressed explicitly in this thread or elsewhere on the forum. I'm an older applicant (31) with a PhD from one of the T14s that starts with a C. I'm looking to go into IP/patent law, and my PhD positions me nicely for the biotech sector.

I realize that admissions is mostly a numbers game, but my undergrad LSAC calculated GPA is an underwhelming 3.25, largely because of grades I earned in community college courses while still in high school. My degree granting institution GPA is 3.56. I don't have an LSAT score on hand yet, but am anticipating high 160s or low 170s.

My question is, will my PhD, and the prestige of my graduate school/program (consistently #1 in USNWR) count for much of anything to the admissions committee? I'm really gunning for a T14, hopefully with some good scholarship money though that is putting the cart before the horse.

Assuming my LSAT comes out as I hope, does a T14 seem like a reasonable expectation? In addition to my PhD I have other 'softs' including about 10 publications, international work experience, a tenured professorship, etc. But from what I read on here those things don't necessarily pull much weight relative to undergrad GPA and LSAT numbers.

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MAPP
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby MAPP » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:34 pm

MAPP wrote:Where should I include a "why x school" essay? I haven't really seen an appropriate place to attach it in any of my applications


bump

Also what should I title it (since there is usually an area for "description" in the optional attachment)? And should there be a heading in the essay itself? If yes, what should that heading look like?

Thanks in advance for the help!

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DerekMeeker
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby DerekMeeker » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:07 pm

BobBoblaw wrote:A quick question that I haven't seen addressed explicitly in this thread or elsewhere on the forum. I'm an older applicant (31) with a PhD from one of the T14s that starts with a C. I'm looking to go into IP/patent law, and my PhD positions me nicely for the biotech sector.

I realize that admissions is mostly a numbers game, but my undergrad LSAC calculated GPA is an underwhelming 3.25, largely because of grades I earned in community college courses while still in high school. My degree granting institution GPA is 3.56. I don't have an LSAT score on hand yet, but am anticipating high 160s or low 170s.

My question is, will my PhD, and the prestige of my graduate school/program (consistently #1 in USNWR) count for much of anything to the admissions committee? I'm really gunning for a T14, hopefully with some good scholarship money though that is putting the cart before the horse.

Assuming my LSAT comes out as I hope, does a T14 seem like a reasonable expectation? In addition to my PhD I have other 'softs' including about 10 publications, international work experience, a tenured professorship, etc. But from what I read on here those things don't necessarily pull much weight relative to undergrad GPA and LSAT numbers.


Yes, I've had STEM PhD clients with almost the exact profile get into T14 schools. They wrote a brief addendum to explain the low undergraduate grades, and I suggest you do the same (especially since many of yours are from community college courses taken in high school).

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DerekMeeker
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby DerekMeeker » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:10 pm

MAPP wrote:
MAPP wrote:Where should I include a "why x school" essay? I haven't really seen an appropriate place to attach it in any of my applications


bump

Also what should I title it (since there is usually an area for "description" in the optional attachment)? And should there be a heading in the essay itself? If yes, what should that heading look like?

Thanks in advance for the help!


If there isn't an optional essay section on the application, then attach it as an addendum as most schools' applications have a place to do that. And yes, all essays and addenda should have a header with name, LSAC number and generic title (e.g., Personal Statement, GPA Addendum, Diversity Statement, Why X Law School, etc.)

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MAPP
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby MAPP » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:18 pm

DerekMeeker wrote:
MAPP wrote:
MAPP wrote:Where should I include a "why x school" essay? I haven't really seen an appropriate place to attach it in any of my applications


bump

Also what should I title it (since there is usually an area for "description" in the optional attachment)? And should there be a heading in the essay itself? If yes, what should that heading look like?

Thanks in advance for the help!


If there isn't an optional essay section on the application, then attach it as an addendum as most schools' applications have a place to do that. And yes, all essays and addenda should have a header with name, LSAC number and generic title (e.g., Personal Statement, GPA Addendum, Diversity Statement, Why X Law School, etc.)


Just to clarify, if I am writing a why x school essay I should actually title it (if I'm writing it to Georgetown, for example) "Why Georgetown Law School"? To me, it just sounds kinda tacky, and I feel like there would be a different title like "statement of interest" or something like that...?

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DerekMeeker
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby DerekMeeker » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:24 pm

MAPP wrote:
DerekMeeker wrote:
MAPP wrote:
MAPP wrote:Where should I include a "why x school" essay? I haven't really seen an appropriate place to attach it in any of my applications


bump

Also what should I title it (since there is usually an area for "description" in the optional attachment)? And should there be a heading in the essay itself? If yes, what should that heading look like?

Thanks in advance for the help!


If there isn't an optional essay section on the application, then attach it as an addendum as most schools' applications have a place to do that. And yes, all essays and addenda should have a header with name, LSAC number and generic title (e.g., Personal Statement, GPA Addendum, Diversity Statement, Why X Law School, etc.)


Just to clarify, if I am writing a why x school essay I should actually title it (if I'm writing it to Georgetown, for example) "Why Georgetown Law School"? To me, it just sounds kinda tacky, and I feel like there would be a different title like "statement of interest" or something like that...?


Any generic title is fine - the point is just to identify the document so they know what it is, e.g.: Why Georgetown Law School, Statement of Interest, Supplemental Essay.

roranoa
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby roranoa » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:35 am

MikeSpivey wrote:
roranoa wrote:
roranoa wrote:What do you think about taking the test three times after a score drop on the second test? Would it be too risky and look bad?


Can I get some insight on this?
(Bumped cuz it seemed like you skipped this question)


Schools only care about the high score. My goal is that before I die people will actually realize this and the implications it has and stop canceling because they think they *may* have done slightly worse and stop worrying about anything but the high score. But I sadly don't think it is going to happen. Pray for me.



Thanks for that. That's weirdly reassuring. But would a higher Dec. score outweigh the "late(r) in the cycle application" factor which, clearly from what I understand, plays against me?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby MikeSpivey » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:22 am

roranoa wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:
roranoa wrote:
roranoa wrote:What do you think about taking the test three times after a score drop on the second test? Would it be too risky and look bad?


Can I get some insight on this?
(Bumped cuz it seemed like you skipped this question)


Schools only care about the high score. My goal is that before I die people will actually realize this and the implications it has and stop canceling because they think they *may* have done slightly worse and stop worrying about anything but the high score. But I sadly don't think it is going to happen. Pray for me.



Thanks for that. That's weirdly reassuring. But would a higher Dec. score outweigh the "late(r) in the cycle application" factor which, clearly from what I understand, plays against me?


Yes, a score of even 1 higher could make more more of a difference than applying in Oct/Nov. Go +2 and I would change "could" to "very likely"

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:54 am

ZVBXRPL wrote:Karen,

I'm confused why people who have a September LSAT score and who retake in December tell law schools to hold off on reviewing theor application until Dec. score comes out.

What if I apply to ls with my September LSAT score and then take the December LSAT. Suppose they admit me before December. Couldn't I just wait until my December score comes out and see what I get? If I score higher, then I'll tell everyone who rejected me to relook at my app. Also, everyone who accepted me or still pending, I'll tell to relook, and try to negotiate bigger scholly.

What's the point of holding off applications? Are people just too lazy to do this process? Or am I missing something?

What if schools that reject you won't re-look at your app?

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby ZVBXRPL » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:59 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:Karen,

I'm confused why people who have a September LSAT score and who retake in December tell law schools to hold off on reviewing theor application until Dec. score comes out.

What if I apply to ls with my September LSAT score and then take the December LSAT. Suppose they admit me before December. Couldn't I just wait until my December score comes out and see what I get? If I score higher, then I'll tell everyone who rejected me to relook at my app. Also, everyone who accepted me or still pending, I'll tell to relook, and try to negotiate bigger scholly.

What's the point of holding off applications? Are people just too lazy to do this process? Or am I missing something?

What if schools that reject you won't re-look at your app?

I'm willing to risk it with a higher LSAT. Seems likely that they will take another look. I mean why not? Spivey, karen, meeker: can u weigh in here. Ty!

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ashrice13
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby ashrice13 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:11 am

Quick question about resumes. I'm 28 and have been in the work force for over 10 years (I worked full time through UG). The last three jobs I've had are all related to/promotions from the prior position.

In the process, I have removed my high school work from my resume as its not relevant at this point in my career. However, many apps ask you to list "all prior employment". I added my highschool jobs to that list but they're not in my resume...will that be a problem? Do I need to back and add them to my resume again?

Thanks for your help!!!

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DerekMeeker
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby DerekMeeker » Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:31 am

ZVBXRPL wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:Karen,

I'm confused why people who have a September LSAT score and who retake in December tell law schools to hold off on reviewing theor application until Dec. score comes out.

What if I apply to ls with my September LSAT score and then take the December LSAT. Suppose they admit me before December. Couldn't I just wait until my December score comes out and see what I get? If I score higher, then I'll tell everyone who rejected me to relook at my app. Also, everyone who accepted me or still pending, I'll tell to relook, and try to negotiate bigger scholly.

What's the point of holding off applications? Are people just too lazy to do this process? Or am I missing something?

What if schools that reject you won't re-look at your app?

I'm willing to risk it with a higher LSAT. Seems likely that they will take another look. I mean why not? Spivey, karen, meeker: can u weigh in here. Ty!


They may or may not take another look as the reconsideration process varies from school to school. Berkeley, for example, states on its website that all decisions are final and they will not reconsider an application once a decision is made. When I was at Penn, a rejected applicant could petition for reconsideration, but those requests would not be considered until review of all other applications was completed, so usually late April at the earliest (which is obviously very late in the process). So, I would advise asking the school to wait for the December score before reviewing the application.

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby ZVBXRPL » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:01 pm

DerekMeeker wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:Karen,

I'm confused why people who have a September LSAT score and who retake in December tell law schools to hold off on reviewing theor application until Dec. score comes out.

What if I apply to ls with my September LSAT score and then take the December LSAT. Suppose they admit me before December. Couldn't I just wait until my December score comes out and see what I get? If I score higher, then I'll tell everyone who rejected me to relook at my app. Also, everyone who accepted me or still pending, I'll tell to relook, and try to negotiate bigger scholly.

What's the point of holding off applications? Are people just too lazy to do this process? Or am I missing something?

What if schools that reject you won't re-look at your app?

I'm willing to risk it with a higher LSAT. Seems likely that they will take another look. I mean why not? Spivey, karen, meeker: can u weigh in here. Ty!


They may or may not take another look as the reconsideration process varies from school to school. Berkeley, for example, states on its website that all decisions are final and they will not reconsider an application once a decision is made. When I was at Penn, a rejected applicant could petition for reconsideration, but those requests would not be considered until review of all other applications was completed, so usually late April at the earliest (which is obviously very late in the process). So, I would advise asking the school to wait for the December score before reviewing the application.

Do you know of any schools who are willing to take another look with out me losing out on time?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:40 pm

Why can't you just wait for your December score?

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby ZVBXRPL » Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:49 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Why can't you just wait for your December score?

Because I want to apply earlyish.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:22 pm

But as Mike was pointing out just a few posts ago, the advantages of applying with a better LSAT score outweigh any minor advantage of applying earlier. (December scores aren't late.)

ZVBXRPL
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby ZVBXRPL » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:30 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:But as Mike was pointing out just a few posts ago, the advantages of applying with a better LSAT score outweigh any minor advantage of applying earlier. (December scores aren't late.)

...Which is why I want to know if there are any schools who allow me to apply in October and retake a look at my December scores once they come out...

I'm expecting to be at 25% LSAT, so I think it pays to get in before others. I may be wrong, though, which is why I am here!

kernel_man
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby kernel_man » Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:09 am

How detrimental is it to take the lsat 4 or possibly even 5 times? Would you recommend an applicant to do a 4th/5th take if they are confident that they can increase their score?

I'm a 165/170/??? (took the September LSAT. VERY confident that I got a ~168. Misdiagrammed a rule in games so ran out of time and had to guess on the entire game 4. I won't cancel, but I am very sure that I did not score higher than a 170.) The 165 and 170 are both from 2014.

My GPA is a high 3.9X and I have 2 years out of undergrad. I'm targeting Harvard and am very sure that I can score in December at least a 171, but even more likely a 172 or 173. Even though it'd be a 4th take, should I retake?

roranoa
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby roranoa » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:57 am

kernel_man wrote:How detrimental is it to take the lsat 4 or possibly even 5 times? Would you recommend an applicant to do a 4th/5th take if they are confident that they can increase their score?

I'm a 165/170/??? (took the September LSAT. VERY confident that I got a ~168. Misdiagrammed a rule in games so ran out of time and had to guess on the entire game 4. I won't cancel, but I am very sure that I did not score higher than a 170.) The 165 and 170 are both from 2014.

My GPA is a high 3.9X and I have 2 years out of undergrad. I'm targeting Harvard and am very sure that I can score in December at least a 171, but even more likely a 172 or 173. Even though it'd be a 4th take, should I retake?


Apparently, according to this thread, "a higher LSAT trumps ALL!". So yeah, as long as you get a higher score the number of times you took the LSAT or the time you apply don't matter.

rhino180
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby rhino180 » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:25 pm

.
Last edited by rhino180 on Wed Oct 05, 2016 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

jstanhope14
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby jstanhope14 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:07 am

Hey, thank you for taking questions today. Mine is: In regard to the T-14 and some select T-1 schools, how can a white, male, Poli Sci, K-JD student differentiate himself from other applicants (other than the obvious answer: highest LSAT score) ?

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haus
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby haus » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:25 pm

jstanhope14 wrote:Hey, thank you for taking questions today. Mine is: In regard to the T-14 and some select T-1 schools, how can a white, male, Poli Sci, K-JD student differentiate himself from other applicants (other than the obvious answer: highest LSAT score) ?

May I suggest winning a Nobel Peace Prize? I think it would go a long way to helping you application stand out.

jstanhope14
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby jstanhope14 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:19 pm

Oh good idea I could work on that instead of finding a summer internship

tskela
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Re: Spivey Consulting Q&A with a growing number of former Adcoms

Postby tskela » Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:20 pm

In terms of softs, I was wondering how important it is to have extracurriculars vs. work experience. Although I didn't work full time during UG, I did put in about as many hours a week as most other students would be spending on clubs and such. Would leadership experience in clubs and the like be looked upon more favorably than my, say, 15-20 hours a week of low-level clerical work throughout UG? I did often work full time over winter breaks and summers. It's not quite as impressive as "i put myself through undergrad" but i was paying my own rent and bills, if not tuition. I'm afraid the fact that I didn't get involved on campus at all is going to be viewed as a negative.
Last edited by tskela on Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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