Spivey Consulting Q&A with Adcoms from Yale, Harvard, Penn, Chicago etc.

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TheodoreKGB
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby TheodoreKGB » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:13 pm

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:35 pm

Good stuff! Keep 'em coming!

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lawschool1741
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby lawschool1741 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:51 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:If anyone has any questions they want addressed in respect to USNWR rankings, let me know and we will try to address them in this podcast:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/podcas ... questions/

Could a T20 ever break in to the T14? If so, which is likely first in/fist out?

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haus
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby haus » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:54 pm

lawschool1741 wrote:
MikeSpivey wrote:If anyone has any questions they want addressed in respect to USNWR rankings, let me know and we will try to address them in this podcast:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/podcas ... questions/

Could a T20 ever break in to the T14? If so, which is likely first in/fist out?

Well, The University of Texas was ranked as tied with GULC for 14th a few years back, only to fall back outside the group again.

Although T14 means different things to different people. It seems that the reason this number is selected is because there has been next to no movement un USNWR view on which schools should be in this top group (not that people should really give that much of a damn what a magazine that is so popular that it stopped printing regular issues about half a decade ago thinks....). So even when schools 'break in' to the T14, unless they stick around for a decade or two, it likely will not count. And given how badly USNWR is run, I suspect that it is unlikely that they there will be enough of it around to continue publishing this list twenty years from now, hence, no, no one will succeed at breaking into the T14.

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Big Red
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Big Red » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:58 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:If anyone has any questions they want addressed in respect to USNWR rankings, let me know and we will try to address them in this podcast:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/podcas ... questions/


If you could create a ranking methodology from scratch, what variables would you choose to weigh heavily and why?

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TheodoreKGB
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby TheodoreKGB » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:04 pm

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4LTsPointingNorth
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:32 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:If anyone has any questions they want addressed in respect to USNWR rankings, let me know and we will try to address them in this podcast:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/podcas ... questions/


Dean Spivey,

Two questions:

One: What's the most useful way of determining how much to factor in rankings when choosing a law school? Do you believe that it is the case that, in a vacuum, USNWR rankings would be sufficiently instructive in determining which law school to attend? Or are these rankings only useful with the added context of LST and other information sources?

Two: Related to a recent TLS post, since USNWR ranks schools ordinally (i.e., in numeric order) but doesn't draw quantifiable distinctions or substantive demarcations in the degree of quality separating each institution in its series, is there an alternate or conglomerate system of rankings currently in existence that would allow a prospective student to determine not only the ordinal ranking of institutional quality, but also the degree to which each institution is separated in quality from its nearest peers? Follow-up: at what point in the rankings systems does an ordinal ranking become misleading? (I.e., past the top X schools, relative rank loses meaning as national reach between school Y and school Z is comparably negligible, and as such, school Y should be only be considered in the context of peer institutions within region A and school Z should only be considered in the context or peer institutions in region B)?

Also, i definitely think it would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on this in a podcast, but it would also be truly helpful (and much appreciated!) to just see a text response in this thread as well.

Best,

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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby pamphleteer » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:38 am

4LTsPointingNorth wrote:Two: Related to a recent TLS post, since USNWR ranks schools ordinally (i.e., in numeric order) but doesn't draw quantifiable distinctions or substantive demarcations in the degree of quality separating each institution in its series, is there an alternate or conglomerate system of rankings currently in existence that would allow a prospective student to determine not only the ordinal ranking of institutional quality, but also the degree to which each institution is separated in quality from its nearest peers? Follow-up: at what point in the rankings systems does an ordinal ranking become misleading? (I.e., past the top X schools, relative rank loses meaning as national reach between school Y and school Z is comparably negligible, and as such, school Y should be only be considered in the context of peer institutions within region A and school Z should only be considered in the context or peer institutions in region B)?


Not to defend USNWR or answer on Spivey's behalf, but US News does assign numerical scores out of 100 to each school that theoretically provide differences in degree between law schools as determined by their rankings. You can scroll over each school's ranking to see its score i.e. Yale received a 100, Stanford and Harvard a 96, Michigan a 83, Vanderbilt a 74, etc. Again not saying these are actually useful in any way but they exist.

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Winston1984
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Winston1984 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:52 am

pamphleteer wrote:
4LTsPointingNorth wrote:Two: Related to a recent TLS post, since USNWR ranks schools ordinally (i.e., in numeric order) but doesn't draw quantifiable distinctions or substantive demarcations in the degree of quality separating each institution in its series, is there an alternate or conglomerate system of rankings currently in existence that would allow a prospective student to determine not only the ordinal ranking of institutional quality, but also the degree to which each institution is separated in quality from its nearest peers? Follow-up: at what point in the rankings systems does an ordinal ranking become misleading? (I.e., past the top X schools, relative rank loses meaning as national reach between school Y and school Z is comparably negligible, and as such, school Y should be only be considered in the context of peer institutions within region A and school Z should only be considered in the context or peer institutions in region B)?


Not to defend USNWR or answer on Spivey's behalf, but US News does assign numerical scores out of 100 to each school that theoretically provide differences in degree between law schools as determined by their rankings. You can scroll over each school's ranking to see its score i.e. Yale received a 100, Stanford and Harvard a 96, Michigan a 83, Vanderbilt a 74, etc. Again not saying these are actually useful in any way but they exist.

Do we have to pay for a subscription to see these? Or does someone have them?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:55 am

haus wrote:And given how badly USNWR is run, I suspect that it is unlikely that they there will be enough of it around to continue publishing this list twenty years from now, hence, no, no one will succeed at breaking into the T14.

I suspect that even if the magazine goes under, the rankings will endure.

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RareExports
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby RareExports » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:22 am

After a certain point, do the ranks mean anything? As evidenced by both large ties and shifts in rankings in the lower T2/T3 on an annual basis, is there really much difference between a school ranked #80 and a school ranked #110?

Similarly, is there any real cutoff to when a school becomes ranked/unraked? Campbell recently went unranked and the boundary between the two categories seems somewhat fluid.

Would be interested in these answers, as there hasn't been much discussion on the lower end of the rankings. Thanks!

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haus
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby haus » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:29 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
haus wrote:And given how badly USNWR is run, I suspect that it is unlikely that they there will be enough of it around to continue publishing this list twenty years from now, hence, no, no one will succeed at breaking into the T14.

I suspect that even if the magazine goes under, the rankings will endure.

Perhaps, but I would imagine that as a generation comes up that no longer has a memory of this magizine, the brand USNWR will lose most of its pull, and the rankings will drift to obscurity along with all of the other law school rankings out there.

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:14 pm

haus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
haus wrote:And given how badly USNWR is run, I suspect that it is unlikely that they there will be enough of it around to continue publishing this list twenty years from now, hence, no, no one will succeed at breaking into the T14.

I suspect that even if the magazine goes under, the rankings will endure.

Perhaps, but I would imagine that as a generation comes up that no longer has a memory of this magizine, the brand USNWR will lose most of its pull, and the rankings will drift to obscurity along with all of the other law school rankings out there.


All true.

Not many people here know of The Gourman Report -- which was the only ranking in town in the early and mid 80s. USNWR is better than the Gourman was, so it replaced it. Hopefully we are trending towards something better than USNWR -- but it will take a good deal of time to really get there, I suspect.
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Skool
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Skool » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:10 pm

MikeSpivey wrote:
haus wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
haus wrote:And given how badly USNWR is run, I suspect that it is unlikely that they there will be enough of it around to continue publishing this list twenty years from now, hence, no, no one will succeed at breaking into the T14.

I suspect that even if the magazine goes under, the rankings will endure.

Perhaps, but I would imagine that as a generation comes up that no longer has a memory of this magizine, the brand USNWR will lose most of its pull, and the rankings will drift to obscurity along with all of the other law school rankings out there.


All true.

Not many people here no of The Gourman Report -- which was the only ranking in town in the early and mid 80s. USNWR is better than the Gourman was, so it replaced it. Hopefully we are trending towards something better than USNWR -- but it will take a good deal of time to really get there, I suspect.
Do we fundamentally need rankings, and if so, why?

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:28 pm

I have a quick question. Has anyone/do you know of anyone that has put all of the USNWR info into an excel sheet? It would be nice to have a sortable copy. If this has been done, could someone point me to the link? Thanks!

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usn26
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby usn26 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:24 am

MikeSpivey wrote:If anyone has any questions they want addressed in respect to USNWR rankings, let me know and we will try to address them in this podcast:

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/podcas ... questions/


If a school jumps in the rankings, is that bad news for applicants on the waitlist? Or really: if a school jumps a few spots within the T14, would that have any impact on yield for that cycle?

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TheodoreKGB
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby TheodoreKGB » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:04 am

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:03 am

Heading to CU Law to do the podcast today. I'll likely have it up on our blog in tne next 48 hours. Thanks to everyone for the questions -- I'm not sure if Scott and I will be able to get through all of them but they are great and we are going to try!

Also, I'm off to tne mountains after this for a few days. I may be a little slow on here. Apologies in advance. Be nice to Karen.

Broncos15
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby Broncos15 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:11 am

Hey Mike or Karen,

I had heard conflicting views on this and wanted to make sure i had the correct information before making a big decision: How much does prestige matter in Undergrad GPA?

I am a Senior at a competitive college, Non ivy, but considered a Tier 1 research university......and just slightly below where i want to be academically.....I would like to get within the 3.6-3.7 range above from my current 3.5-3.6 range because in that scenario I would open up doors for Colombia, Chicago, Harvard and ( although slim) chances at UC Berkeley.

Would transferring to a local, less competitive school and graduating from there be a valid move if it increased my chances of getting in this 3.6-3.7 range by graduation so I can open up doors to those 4 schools.....or would it backfire on me even if i got in that range? ( of course there are other factors involved such as time and money, but if this would help and I knew i could graduate in a year or less even after the transfer i may go for ti)

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KarenButtenbaum
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby KarenButtenbaum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:57 pm

Broncos15 wrote:Hey Mike or Karen,

I had heard conflicting views on this and wanted to make sure i had the correct information before making a big decision: How much does prestige matter in Undergrad GPA?

I am a Senior at a competitive college, Non ivy, but considered a Tier 1 research university......and just slightly below where i want to be academically.....I would like to get within the 3.6-3.7 range above from my current 3.5-3.6 range because in that scenario I would open up doors for Colombia, Chicago, Harvard and ( although slim) chances at UC Berkeley.

Would transferring to a local, less competitive school and graduating from there be a valid move if it increased my chances of getting in this 3.6-3.7 range by graduation so I can open up doors to those 4 schools.....or would it backfire on me even if i got in that range? ( of course there are other factors involved such as time and money, but if this would help and I knew i could graduate in a year or less even after the transfer i may go for ti)


In general, I would say that the quality of the school does matter when looking at the GPA, and I think that this rings true for many of your target schools. There is a lot more besides GPA that will open those doors too.
Transferring in your senior year might raise some questions in and of itself, so I'm not sure that this would be a move that I would advise.

Cheers,
KB

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:43 pm

Since I know you want to listen to an hour long podcast on USNWR rankings while you are out celebrating St. Patrick's Day

http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/2016-usnwr-podcast/

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MikeSpivey
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby MikeSpivey » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:50 am

Would it be helpful if we wrote a blog on "how much love is too much to show" particularly for people who have not heard from a school or are on tne WL? Because I'm already starting to hear some crazy ideas.

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lawschool1741
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby lawschool1741 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:54 am

MikeSpivey wrote:Would it be helpful if we wrote a blog on "how much love is too much to show" particularly for people who have not heard from a school or are on tne WL? Because I'm already starting to hear some crazy ideas.

Yes! and I would love to hear some of the crazier ideas :lol:

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buckiguy_sucks
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:00 am

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storpappa
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Re: Q&A with former Harvard, Chicago, Vandy Admissions officers

Postby storpappa » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:08 am

Yes, a list of what kind of love to show would be great to see. Like positive, acceptable things such as this example --

Dear Admissions office,
I would like to schedule a visit to stop by and tour the school. What time does the Dean arrive, what is their preferred drink from Starbucks, donut or bagel, and Armor-All or Turtle Wax?

Thanks


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